Why "Tentmaker"

[Wadif I.M. Rong]

I have so many questions, and some of them might be disruptive. I am trying to get the answers by reading the articles and discussions posted here, but sometimes I am not finding complete answers, or am maybe a little, well maybe a lot surprised at leaps that are made in reasoning.

I don't want to be disruptive if this is a peaceful quite neighborhood where everybody is happily at "100% sure" as one article stated. I can continue to work things out on my own. Just wondering what the climate is here.

Here is an ice breaker. If you wish I would go away, just ignore this post.

Why "Tentmaker"?  What does it imply?  I have always heard it used in reference to Paul making his own wage, so as not to burden those he was ministering to. Then applied, in principle to modern missionaries. (With potential benefit of legal reasons for being in a foreign country).

[rosered]

 

  Well Wad if ,
  I do believe without Gods help and the Holy Spirit witness  , there is not a one who would have a clue , Gods grace and   glory all His own  !! :HeartThrob:

  There is none righteous  no not one there none that understands  no one seeks after God ....

Romans 3 There is No One Righteous
...10as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; 11THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; 12ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."...

Psalm 53:2
God looks down from heaven on all mankind to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God.

[HungerForTruth]

I have been a "Calvinist" of one form or another for over 30 years and just recently was enlightened to the reality of Universal Reconciliation.  I must say my heart has been changed as a result.  I truly feel I am not following a man or a system of doctrine now, I am now following Jesus. 

Having said that: I am not against systematic theology per say, but often men use human intellect to frame elaborate doctrines that misrepresent God, yet mirror what they would be like if they were God. My intent is NOT to be divisive, but the God John Calvin promoted in his work "Institutes of the Christian Religion" is a severe harsh God that doles out severe punishment for the non-elect by His chosing.  Yes I have read the entire thing two volume set that resides in my library.

No wonder John Calvin's God was so severe, look at what John Calvin was capable of:

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Calvins Reign of Terror, The Many Faces of Calvinism 

Geneva was a church-city-state of 15,000 people, and the church constitution now recognized "pastors, doctors, elders and deacons," but the supreme power was given to the magistrate, John Calvin. In November 1552, the Council declared Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion to be a "holy doctrine which no man might speak against." Thus the State issued dogmatic decrees, the force of which had been anticipated earlier, as when Jacques Gruet, a known opponent of Calvin, was arrested, tortured for a month and beheaded on July 26, 1547, for placing a letter in Calvin's pulpit calling him a hypocrite. Gruet's book was later found and burned along with his house while his wife was thrown out into the street to watch. Gruet's death was more highly criticized by far than the banishment of Castellio or the penalties inflicted on Bolsec -- moderate men opposed to extreme views in discipline and doctrine, who fell under suspicion as reactionary. Calvin did not shrink from his self-appointed task. Within five years fifty-eight sentences of death and seventy-six of exile, besides numerous committals of the most eminent citizens to prison, took place in Geneva. The iron yoke could not be shaken off. In 1555, under Ami Perrin, a revolt was attempted. No blood was shed, but Perrin lost the day, and Calvin's theocracy triumphed. John Calvin had secured his grip on Geneva by defeating the very man who had invited him there, Ami Perrin, commissioner of Geneva.

Calvin forced the citizens of Geneva to attend church services under a heavy threat of punishment. Since Calvinism falsely teaches that God forces the elect to believe, it is no wonder that Calvin thought he could also force the citizens of Geneva to all become the elect. Not becoming one of the elect was punishable by death or expulsion from Geneva. Calvin exercised forced regeneration on the citizens of Geneva, because that is what his theology teaches.

Michael Servetus, a Spaniard, physician, scientist and Bible scholar, was born in Villanova in 1511. He was credited with the discovery of the pulmonary circulation of the blood from the right chamber of the heart through the lungs and back to the left chamber of the heart. He was Calvin's longtime friend in their earlier resistance against the Roman Catholic Church. Servetus, while living in Vienne (historic city in southeastern France), angered Calvin by returning a copy of Calvin's writings, Institutes, with critical comments in the margins. Servetus was arrested by the Roman Catholic Authorities on April 4 but escaped on April 7, 1553. He traveled to Geneva where he attended Calvin's Sunday preaching service on August 13. Calvin promptly had Servetus arrested and charged with heresy for his disagreement with Calvin's theology. The thirty-eight official charges included rejection of the Trinity and infant baptism. Servetus was correct in challenging Calvin's false teaching about infant baptism for salvation, but he was heretical in his rejection of the doctrine of the Trinity. Servetus pleaded to be beheaded instead of the more brutal method of burning at the stake, but Calvin and the city council refused the quicker death method. Other Protestant churches throughout Switzerland advised Calvin that Servetus be condemned but not executed. Calvin ignored their pleas and Servetus was burned at the stake on October 27, 1553. John Calvin insisted that his men use green wood for the fire because it burned slower. Servetus was screaming as he was literally baked alive from the feet upward and suffered the heat of the flames for 30 minutes before finally succumbing to one of the most painful and brutal death methods possible. Servetus had written a theology book, a copy of which Calvin had strapped to the chest of Servetus. The flames from the burning book rose against Servetus' face as he screamed in agony.

John Calvin celebrated and bragged of his killing of Servetus. Many theological and state leaders criticized Calvin for the unwarranted killing of Servetus, but it fell on deaf ears as Calvin advised others to do the same. Calvin wrote much in following years in a continual attempt to justify his burning of Servetus. Some people claim Calvin favored beheading, but this does not fit charges of heresy for which the punishment, as written by Calvin earlier, was to be burning at the stake. Calvin had made a vow years earlier that Servetus would never leave Geneva alive if he were ever captured, and Calvin held true to his pledge. Truly John Calvin is burning in Hell for his heresy, blasphemy of God and murder of many.

Another victim of Calvin's fiery zeal was Gentile of an Italian sect in Geneva, which also numbered among its adherents Alciati and Gribaldo. More or less Unitarian in their views, they were required to sign a confession drawn up by Calvin in 1558. Gentile signed it reluctantly, but in the upshot he was condemned and imprisoned as a perjurer. He escaped only to be incarcerated twice at Berne where, in 1566, he was beheaded. Calvin also had thirty-four (34) women burned at the stake after accusing them of causing a plague that had swept through Geneva in 1545. John Calvin's actions were very paganistic like his mentor, Saint Augustine. Jesus and all of the Apostles would have abhorred and condemned these blatant mass murders.
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

cut and pasted from: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2643336/posts

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: @ Rong.....You'd have to ask Gary what he had in mind when he named his site. Maybe Jabcat knows, I don't. This board seeks to be peaceful and respectful of wherever someone is in their journey. We've all come from different religious backgrounds, or some like myself, from no background at all.

What we all seem to have in common is a deep hunger for the Truth of God's Word and His heart in the matter and the belief in the Son of God, and I would say most of us don't care what chips have to fall along the way, in the pursuit of it. So question away, most people here are not easily offended.

@ Hunger.....amazing isn't it? I've never said anything but I always wonder when I see someone describe themselves as a Calvinist, it they have any idea of ALL that entails. He became just like the ones he hated. Blessings...

[Seth]

The Bible refers to the body as a tent. I've often wondered if Paul's profession as a tent maker reflected his office as an Apostle building up the new man, corporately and individually, and sending it into the world. I'm sure Gary had other ideas about why he named his ministry tentmaker though.

[sheila]

 oh my Hunger....there is a darkness so dark..it can not be looked upon. an evil so evil..it far surpasses anything a man of

flesh and blood would ever entertain in his heart...darker than any earthly darkness....when it enters in..this abomination that

causes desolation...it causes God to be far off from His temple. It oftentimes likes to masquerade as an angel of light...but if the

  light that be in ye..be darkness..how great is that darkness!

[Wadif I.M. Rong]

The Bible refers to the body as a tent. I've often wondered if Paul's profession as a tent maker reflected his office as an Apostle building up the new man, corporately and individually, and sending it into the world. I'm sure Gary had other ideas about why he named his ministry tentmaker though.

Well the tent thing is close to my heart. I raised my two kids while living in the Northwoods by a small lake, in a "GP small" 6 man arctic army tent. It was wonderful, and my kids are so proud of their time there. (Aprox 7 years, over a span of 9). People in here have said "welcome to the tent!"  And my heart pounds. That is what we called our home for all those years. "The Tent".

A lot of my heros lived in tents for parts of their lives: Abraham, Moses, God; to name a few. And as mentioned, Paul made them, and would I ever love to have one of those made by Paul!!!  A lot of remarkable things happened within the walls and doorways of tents. I mean, things of Biblical proportion. :)

I wonder if Gary had the original tabernacle tent in mind, or maybe the tabernacle of our bodies, as Seth mentioned.  Any way, anything to do with a well made tent is OK by me.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Wow....my hat's off to you, I couldn't do it. But I love the whole tent thing too. The Tabernacle of Moses is a special thing for me as He has taught me so much thru it's construction and dimensions and furniture. There is a sticky post by that name on here, if you have time to read it, it's a good read. Blessings...

[Wadif I.M. Rong]

Why is it that  when women get close to the heart of God, it just seems like they can get closer than any man I ever knew. Whenever these women like Rosered and Sheila write something, I feel like I am getting a glimpse of the face of God. It is almost like I have to read it out of the corner of my eye, or maybe put a veil over it and read through that.

It is a great blessing to be able to read your hearts.  (As long as I don't go comparing them to my own).

[Wadif I.M. Rong]

Thank you Cardinal, you posted as I was posting the above. I will check out that thread. And thank you also for inviting my questions in your previous post.

[dajomaco]

I have so many questions, and some of them might be disruptive. I am trying to get the answers by reading the articles and discussions posted here, but sometimes I am not finding complete answers, or am maybe a little, well maybe a lot surprised at leaps that are made in reasoning.

I don't want to be disruptive if this is a peaceful quite neighborhood where everybody is happily at "100% sure" as one article stated. I can continue to work things out on my own. Just wondering what the climate is here.

Here is an ice breaker. If you wish I would go away, just ignore this post.

Why "Tentmaker"?  What does it imply?  I have always heard it used in reference to Paul making his own wage, so as not to burden those he was ministering to. Then applied, in principle to modern missionaries. (With potential benefit of legal reasons for being in a foreign country).

Without faith it is impossible to please God.
Is there more faith required to believes 100%.
Or is more faith required to believe 80%.
The more room for Faith is the more room for God.

[Wadif I.M. Rong]

"Hunger for Truth",

Wow sir, it is like you read my original post and God gave you a vision of my tangled mind, and said "here, let's just blast past all the pleasantries and get right to the heart of the matter."  I am serious, it is almost spooky that you would post as you did.  And I honestly can't find what in my post triggered your response.

These theological issues you bring forth are the tip of the iceberg that I am trying to map out with some kind of primative Stone Age sonar that just is not getting me safely around this thing. And my fear is that while I am trying to avoid ship wrecking against the submerged mountain of ice, the Truth is hidden in a capsule frozen somewhere in the middle of the monstrosity. 

I will respond more fully as time allows between jobs. But I will say that UR seems to me the logical, and maybe even the only, peaceful resting place for a kind hearted, people loving adherent to the five pointed "TULIP" of Calvinism.

[Wadif I.M. Rong]

Dajomaco, is your real name "Confucius"????!!??

If I ever say something that profound, just please kill me before I open my mouth again. (I'd like to be remembered that way).

[Cardinal]

Thank you Cardinal, you posted as I was posting the above. I will check out that thread. And thank you also for inviting my questions in your previous post.

:cloud9: Great....here's the link....http://tentmaker.org/forum/christian-life/experiencing-the-tabernacle/

[joeteekay]

Thank you Cardinal, you posted as I was posting the above. I will check out that thread. And thank you also for inviting my questions in your previous post.

:cloud9: Great....here's the link....http://tentmaker.org/forum/christian-life/experiencing-the-tabernacle/
[/quote

Very informative link. Thank you Card
:thumbsup:

[Wadif I.M. Rong]

Thank you for the link Cardinal. I went looking on my own and the closest thing I found was a thread on herbal medicine that people smoke. The smoke part of that health equation seems a little counter-productive. Kind of like when I discovered tooth paste contains sugar. Anyway, your link will save me some time. Thanks.

So "Hunger for Truth" presented one peice of the puzzle. Here is another preface to some questions I hope to ask when I have time: A couple years before Martin Luther died, his theology had progressed to the point where he could write two widely celebrated peices. "On the Jews and their lies" and "on the holy name and lineage of Christ"

Luther's writings became as scripture to many Germans. These two peices were often proudly quoted in anti Jewish liturature or speech. I wrote down some quotes from those papers, and comments by Hall V Worthington.

Martin Luther had been kind to the Jews as a younger and less enlightened man.
Now he wrote that they were no longer the chosen people but the devils people. "Base whoring people, that is no people of God. And their boast of their lineage, circumcision and law must be accounted as filth." [...full of the] "Devils feces...which they wallow in like swine"

Describing the synagogue: a "defiled bride, yes an incourageible whore and evil slut."

Worthington write of Luther: "he advocated setting synagogues on fire, destroying Jewish prayer books, forbidding Rabbis from preaching, seizing Jew's property and money, smashin up their homes, and ensuring that these 'poisonous envenomed worms' be forced into labor or expelled 'for all time'

Luther wrote: "we are at fault in not slaying them."

[Wadif I.M. Rong]

I hate to just leave it at that point. I may have to do this in small bits as I work long hours except on Saturday.  But this is all about theology. I don't want to make too broad a statement, but what individuals and society's think and do are in a large part a result of what they beleive about God. The ancient "nature vs. nurture" discussion applies. Hungry said "no wonder john Calvin's God was so severe. Look at what John Calvin was capable of".  Yet the article implied the opposite, that Augustine's theology paved the way for Calvins behaviors. He said "Calvin exercised forced regeneration on the citizens of Geneva, because that is what his theology teaches."

Yes we each have genetic pre-disposition that makes us look for a fitting theology for our personality. Yet we yield ourselves to the chosen theology and become shaped by it. The old Calvin and the old Luther had changed. I feel the theology changed them, or at least encouraged the change.

The little choir boy in Germany named Adolph had a personality that responded to Luthers theology in shocking ways. The theology paved the way and prepaired the society for it.

Eventually, I want to get to a concept that Calvin's theology had in common with Luther's theology, and if I am not mistaken, also with UR theology, although not with some other systems of Christian theology.

In the mean time: an awkward but honest question to Hungry, and anyone else who has come from other Christian views to now embrace UR thinking: did you sin more as a Calvinist (or other) or more now as a Universalist?  Or, has your sinning (or not) stayed the same?

[rosered]

  Hi Wadif !   :Peace2:

  I believe you might be focusing on ''faith ''      this is what all people in general believe in ''concepts '' and  constructs of ideas and   the rest by  faith    or  not knowing ,in the dark about    but expecting it to be   truth  LIGHT  , but  call it  worship   of  God

Many it seems have created     with their   useless  imaginations  , their own mini    gods  in their own minds  and them ''ideas '' are   their only power and what they serve and try to influence  others to believe also     

ONLY THE HOLY SPIRIT GIVES US  TRUTH /LIGHT/WORD ,  THOUGH JESUS CHRIST

  The True and  Living God will turn them over to strong delusion   that they do  believe in error , misgivings   , just like everyone   is  doomed to everlasting  hell but a very few ..  that general     Babylonian   concept     many including my self  believed  at first   ,  always in fear of    my life   and UNWORTHINESS and failures and that was the main focus  because it was taught   , like the blind leading the blind   into  the  pit of despair..  and  inability to have a   real  and budding relationship with God   whom is Spirit and truth      , this idea just inforced Jesus warnings of they will not enter   themselves nor allow anyone else to either   enter GODS KINGDOM .

  Enter the gates of the Holy City of God , now your flesh and blood cannot  and will never enter that  holy place  ,  but they focus   on your flesh  which is the body of death   and  the law of Moses is the ministration of death  ,  and made to put that old man of sin to death      , this is a GOOD THING  !!   really good  , because with  that old man of sin out of the way   , than,  can you place your focus  ON JESUS CHRIST    , Not that prideful  old man of sin who wants to be like God 
and actually think He not only saves himself but others too   , wow how arrogant is that ?   the putrid rotting  of   self righteousness  and body of death  and the   fire of his torment  is smoke in Gods nostrils all the day long Isaiah 65  Judgments and Promises
...4Who sit among graves and spend the night in secret places; Who eat swine's flesh, And the broth of unclean meat is in their pots. 5"Who say, 'Keep to yourself, do not come near me, For I am holier than you!' These are smoke in My nostrils, A fire that burns all the day. 6"Behold, it is written before Me, I will not keep silent, but I will repay; I will even repay into their bosom,...

To many places  IN THE WORD  telling us that God is NOT    going to do such a thing  as burn everyone in hell forever and ever  and Him sending His Son  Jesus Christ IS THE VERY PROOF !!     all   are in correction   by our own   believing     , Jesus come to send fire on the earth  [judgment ]   , now many are   burning by their own judging and being judged by the   Fiery LAW   do unto others as you would do unto you , as you judge so shall    you be judged by your own words and own  merciless   attitude!  PRAY FOR YOUR ENEMIES   JESUS SAID !     be merciful and obtain mercy       Matt 5   


with them tongues of fire   that do set the course of hell / Gehenna  James 3 ...5So also the tongue is a small part of the body, and yet it boasts of great things. See how great a forest is set aflame by such a small fire! 6And the tongue is a fire, the very world of iniquity; the tongue is set among our members as that which defiles the entire body, and sets on fire the course of our life, and is set on fire by hell. 7For every species of beasts and birds, of reptiles and creatures of the sea, is tamed and has been tamed by the human race....

Every knee   will bow and every Tongue confess    Jesus      ,  I have no doubts about it  at all ..  two bodies     and two minded   focuses ,,,, one is the body of death  and this is all kept as BELOW    and earthly sensual and devilish, carnal in nature    and temporary  and the other is the body of Life   and  rises  up as  endless  , for lack of a better word   , but it was ALWAYS   SPIRITUAL  and  always ABOVE  and glorious  and pure and HOLY  and perfect   and LOVE   a hard word to pin down and describe  on human terms , because  no  human  has a clue , but kept in the dark about the things of God ,  This was helpful for me when reading as to why Jesus done all them great works and said ''tell no man ''    because man would ''hinder the   cause of Jesus Christ ''   
  they would scatter  and separate  and isolate    one another , and JESUS CHRIST IS ALL ABOUT THE GATHERING INTO ONE  TRUE  AND LIVING   GOD THE FATHER BY SPIRIT & TRUTH  ONLY  and no flesh and blood would have any part of that   , Only His own flesh and blood poured out as the perfect offering for all sin  for all time   , that was   always pure and  holy and incorruptible  , because the FATHER   DONE THIS for   mankind   , not mankind  , but Jesus Christ only and those in Christ   giving their lives  [the natural  one  for Life   eternal   in GOD  and have this in the here and now      ...

  I do Believe   Jesus Christ is the Lord and Master of the dead and living      and Do believe His  perfect WORK WILL   accomplish    every   jot and detail   , every speck   promised by  both laws     working simultaneously    , together at the same time     ,  death to one[ man of sin ] and life to the other  [ new man in Christ]
   the Fiery Law   and the  Royal Law    that only the new man in Christ can keep because it is Holy         

When Jesus does hand all things ,  meaning every speck   , right down to the miniscule  detail    over to GOD THE FATHER   , SO HE MAY BE ALL IN ALL

It will be exactly as  it has been written  , and Spoken and   worked out  to the very end     

    2Thess 2 The Man of Sin
...10and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,

12in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

You said ,

In the mean time: an awkward but honest question to Hungry, and anyone else who has come from other Christian views to now embrace UR thinking: did you sin more as a Calvinist (or other) or more now as a Universalist?  Or, has your sinning (or not) stayed the same?

Speaking evil   slandering  against Gods goodness   and character , saying He is some mean and vengeful God     who loves to send people to  everlasting torment     because He can
  Is like saying   , Oh my!  that   wicked cat eats mice   , I am glad I am not a cat   ,   I am just a   frog  who eats flies
I am blessed of God and that cat is sooo doomed   by the same God whom  created all things for His   glory !!

  or the excuse they sent themselves to  Hell  fire and torment   because they cannot   do good ..........   when it comes to sin and being carnal in nature  , you can always point to sin in every last human being God ever created     , secret sins , sins of  pride and sins of self serving and sins of the earthly and sensual kind that are out to please their  flesh    and satisfy urges and needs  , it never stops sinning    , it is doomed to death and rot   and decay and  corruption
It was never  meant to be glorified   eternally   , its a temporary     thing , like a corn husk    , its purpose was to hold the corn in place till harvest  , but to be discarded  and done did  its thing ,,,     like dung in the soil     served its purpose    and used up     to make something   He  considers perfect    for   His , Gods  glory   , fruit of Gods goodness and perfectness and completeness     
sinning is error and missing out of the   Spiritual  purpose  of Gods plan   in the here and now     

  Everyone will know in the end what they  missed out in and on  to their own shame  and some whom died   in sin ,   ignorance
 
When Jesus told them ,whom said they SEE  , HE said because you SAY you see , your sins remains   and they would die in there sins

    the weird thing to me was the day / Light of knowing   you eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and chose the evil over the good   is the day you die in your sins   from the beginning    when God   made the WORD KNOWN  , not to eat of it  in the first place  , it is the fiery law   of judgment

  the very tongue   that judges us is our own   words    that come from thoughts that come into play /acting on them  , setting your world on fire  in judgment   and suffering  , those whom you love will also suffer with you  , even Jesus suffers   because of your sins  , because HE DOES LOVE YOU THAT MUCH and hopes you will learn to  choose the good  and avoid the evil   , when learning to discern  what is good and what is evil   , and the   Holy one in Christ will   repent of the old  man always and choose the good  and do what is right in Gods sight  , because Jesus Christ is with you doing the good  , the old man of sin could not do on his own ,  till he perishes  and is done away with in Christ  , as his last day ...

   last day Christ John 6:40 ESV

For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."

 

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: @ Wadif.......Yes, I was also aware of Luther's transgressions. Pride goeth before a fall. Luther lifted himself up thinking he was better than his fellow man, and so fell into his error. Jesus was "rough" on the Jewish leaders because they had been trusted with the first oracles of God (you're held accountable for what you know) above all other nations of men, but some men turn that correction He brought to them into a never-ending witch hunt, ignoring what He said about boasting yourself against the tree you were grafted onto.

In all things, there is balance and the HS has to be the one doing the judging. The thing about the HS doing it, it is different from how men do it. He reveals to heal, men reveal to revile. One lifts up even while tearing down, the other only tears down. One is a two-edged sword able to both cut and heal at the same time, the other only wounds unto death.

I can't speak for anyone else, but the difference UR made in me, is that it helped me to focus more on the Christ in people as opposed to their flesh only. It's still a struggle when severe offenses come, and likely will be as long as I'm in this flesh body because that's it's nature, but the battle has definitely lessened.

And this may sound sacrilegious to some, but when your focus changes from trying to get everyone "saved" to resting in the knowledge that He will have all men saved, you can focus on loving them where they are at, which is what draws all men to Him anyway, because love is what was nailed to the cross. My  :2c: Blessings....

[Dandelion]

I had recently told someone that I don't live my life differently, now that I believe in UR. Which, is basically true. 

But, one of the main ways I am different for believing in UR, includes a deep joyfulness that God sees all of us through, and doesn't give up on us, until we return to Him. Once I heard of UR, I felt, YES, that is the God I know. I am sure He never gave up on me, though many times this world did.

Even among my Christian friends, I am often criticized for not letting go of people, when they hurt me. But, my idea of unconditional love, includes still to love them, and not to stop reaching out to them or being available to them.

We will all let each other down, sooner or later, but my idea of love says that it stands by and hopes; it continues to love. This is the aspect that drew me to UR the most, from the beginning. I believe it is God who taught me not to toss people aside, but to continue to nurture the relationship, even when the going gets rough.

People say, but you will keep getting hurt, and it will ruin your own sense of self, but, I find, if we give it all to God, and follow His lead, and not people's, that He gives us the strength and yes, even the joy, to love through the storms.  If we don't take their rejection or anger personally, but rather allow God to be a filter for our feelings, we can do great things. In our fallen world, there are times, I realize, that relationships must end or change radically, but even then, we can still do so in a loving way, and not in a cruel or callous way.

I believe the present template of Hell, gives people the green light to limit love too much, both God's and their own.

Love never fails.

:HeartThrob:

[HungerForTruth]

Wadif:

My personal sin has not grown or subsided, HOWEVER  - - the UR theology has made me much more tolerant and loving towards others and not so stinking judgmental.  I truly feel the freedom I have learned about but never experienced before committing to embracing UR.  The pressure is off.

What prompted my response was you seemed to be searching for truth and I wanted to share what I discovered in my journey. 

I want to follow the Lord, not a systematic theological system created by men.  Them critters (systematic theological systems) divide.  Is Christ divided?  Uh no.  Do dogmatic doctrines divide?  Uh yes.

Galatians 5:19-21English Standard Version (ESV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy,[a] drunkenness, orgies, and things like these.

[sheila]

....a lot of doctrines..and low base thoughts of carnal men[My thoughts are higher then yours] can be likened unto the abominable

and disgusting 'images' on the walls of the chamber of 'imagery"  Basically..man to be in the image of God..not likening God unto

the corrupted image of the man of sin.  These things..said and done and representative of God..by fallen man...are unworthy of Him.

    I heard this saying once.....man before the fall...this one..God created in His image.  Man after the fall..created a god in his image.

   the restoration and salvation of man..is the face to face image of God in man.

    Peter's vision...the sheet let down from heaven/man's descent into ignorance and the corrupted carnal images......Rise Peter...

  kill and eat.........the death of the old carnal ignorance and base in man...the lifting back up of the Christ image/return unto the

  Father.

    that which is corrupt and temporal in man...must pass away

[dajomaco]

 In the mean time: an awkward but honest question to Hungry, and anyone else who has come from other Christian views to now embrace UR thinking: did you sin more as a Calvinist (or other) or more now as a Universalist?  Or, has your sinning (or not) stayed the same?


I find now that I believe in UR.
That I don't judge or categorise  people according to their sin.
I find I judge my personal walk with the Lord less according to Sin,
and more according to Love.

I am more committed to loving.
My main commitment before UR was a commitment to not sinning.
That turned out to be a complete failure.
I feel better about my relationship with Jesus when I witness my self being loving or kind.
Definitely less conscience of sin and more conscience of God's Love 

[micah7:9]

In the mean time: an awkward but honest question to Hungry, and anyone else who has come from other Christian views to now embrace UR thinking: did you sin more as a Calvinist (or other) or more now as a Universalist?  Or, has your sinning (or not) stayed the same?


I find now that I believe in UR.
That I don't judge or categorise  people according to their sin.
I find I judge my personal walk with the Lord less according to Sin,
and more according to Love.

I am more committed to loving.
My main commitment before UR was a commitment to not sinning.
That turned out to be a complete failure.
I feel better about my relationship with Jesus when I witness my self being loving or kind.
Definitely less conscience of sin and more conscience of God's Love

:dsunny:

[HungerForTruth]

In the mean time: an awkward but honest question to Hungry, and anyone else who has come from other Christian views to now embrace UR thinking: did you sin more as a Calvinist (or other) or more now as a Universalist?  Or, has your sinning (or not) stayed the same?


I find now that I believe in UR.
That I don't judge or categorise  people according to their sin.
I find I judge my personal walk with the Lord less according to Sin,
and more according to Love.

I am more committed to loving.
My main commitment before UR was a commitment to not sinning.
That turned out to be a complete failure.
I feel better about my relationship with Jesus when I witness my self being loving or kind.
Definitely less conscience of sin and more conscience of God's Love

:iagree:  This is an excellent post - I couldn't agree more.  The more we behold HIM the more we become like Him.  Sin stops not from a fleshly resistance of sin but by being occupied with another pursuit:  HIM.   :cloud9: