Another look at fire and judgment.

[eaglesway]

This post is a little long and for some, I am sure, speculative- but it comes around ......... it is a further development  of something I posted a few days ago in another thread.

I believe there is kolassis awaitng the wicked- just because of the language of scripture, but I also believe that the light of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ will set everyone free. These are not mutually exclusive- they are one(imo). In Rev 1 His eyes are as flames of fire and a two-edged sword comes out of His mouth. Heb 4:12 describe this...

12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

Romans 2 also... 15 their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

I believe we are part of the lake of fire- the great cloud of witness that are the families of the Father of lights will be gathered in the presence of God and His holy angels(and really already are, "seated in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus"). Remember how Paul said, "In the presence of God and His holy angels I have decided to delievr such a one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh......."



When Fine Linen shared this with 6 or 7 years ago I wasnt sure about it(us being, or being part of, the lake of fire, representing a cosmic "family intervention" so to speak) but many scriptures began to jump out at me, like...

"Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? If the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts? 3 Do you not know that we will judge angels?  "Know you not that you will judge angels"(1Cor 6:2)

"The thrones were set in place....the court was seated and the books were opened."(Dan 7:9-11)

"His eyes were as flames of fire"(Rev 1), "All things are open to the eyes of Him with which we have to do"(Hebrews 4:12),

"The eyes of the Lord run to and fro over the whole earth seeking the pure in heart that He might show Himself strong in them"

"If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb(.Rev 14)

God takes His stand in His own congregation;
            He judges in the midst of the rulers. (Ps 82:1)

All  these verses tell me that all judgment takes place in the presence of  the Lord in the midst of the "great congregation".

The only verse that "supposedly" says differently is

"They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might" (2 Thessalonians 1:9).

I think it should read differently....

I would translate it, "they will suffer the punishment of aionian correction from the presence of the Lord."

away from is "apo" which is translated, "by" "from" "because of" "of" and "out of" over 500 times and never "away from" except for here in 2 Thess

In Acts 5:2 it is actually translated "part of" for when Anninias and Safira help back part of the sale price of their land.

I believe all judgment is in the presence of God, "On the day when the Lord judges the secrets of mens hearts through Jesus Christ"(Rom 2), I charge you in the presence of God and His holy angels"(Tim), "And the devil and His angels were tomented in the presence of the Lord and His holy angels with fre(pyr) and brimstone(theon)".

If a person reads the entire chapter of Hebrews 12 from verse 1 on, they can see this illustrated as a word picture(imo)


Some UR folks believe this will happen for all instantly when they see His face but I believe that runs contrary to the common language of many verses.

I think, since Jesus said this experience(aionian kolassis) was to be avoided, I dont think it will be instant for all and I think it will be long and difficult for some, because if the last adversary is death and maybe the second to last the devil(1 Cor 15),  it may take many stripes until some bow the knee and few for some, or there would be no need to speak of a "last adversary" because, when the last human bows the knee there will be no more death, so there would be no "last adversary" or need for "thrones and books and courts" if all were instantly saved at the great white throne. I am familiar with all the gnostic and mystic explanations for those verses about the lake of fire and Romans 1 and 2. They are just not convincing to me.

But, "Our God is a consuming fire" and it is certain that the fire is love, because "God is love" and the purging, as I see it, comes from the light of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ"(2 Cor 4) burning away every veil, consuming every impdiment to love(adversary)

1 Cor 15:25-28...25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

If death is destroyed there can be no more enemies and no more kolassis or torment or lake of fire, because it is the second death.

He is coming in the clouds with 10,000s of 10,000s of His holy ones.....He makes His angels winds and His ministers flames of fire

But the biggest confirmtion of this for me is Hebrews 12 which begins with the Great cloud of witnesses(he is coming in the clouds), then defines the "great congregation".....

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

29 For our God is a consuming fire.


Interesting how that portion ends with verse 29.

God's fire is love. The righteous shine in it. The wicked are purged in it until they repent, and then they shine too, because God becomes all in all.


Ez 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

The penalty here of iniquity is to be removed from the midst of the stones of fire(which are imo, "the spirits of righteous men made perfect") to be cast out of Zion(the mountain of God as seen in Heb 12). This represents "outer darkness", imo. "Take them before the whole assembly and if they do not repent let them become as a heathen(cast out)". A similar heavenly judgment was laid upon the "angls who left their proper abode"(traded service for self will) in Jude...."Bound in aidos chains in outer darkness". Also James 2..."If their is selfish ambition and bitter jealousy among you do not be arrogant and lie against the truth....This wisdom is not from above but is earthly, soulish, demonic."

Isaiah 25:7
And on this mountain He will swallow up the covering which is over all peoples,
Even the veil which is stretched over all nations.
8 He will swallow up death for all time,
And the Lord God will wipe tears away from all faces,
And He will remove the reproach of His people from all the earth;

2 Cor 4:3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

All these scriptures and more go into the context of God's attributes. There is one God. He is Fire. He is Love.

And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.


When the Lord has washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and purged the bloodshed of Jerusalem from her midst, by the spirit of judgment and the spirit of burning, 5 then the Lord will create over the whole area of Mount Zion and over her assemblies a cloud by day, even smoke, and the brightness of a flaming fire by night; for over all the glory will be a canopy. Isaiah 25

Here we see how judgement begins in the house of God with the elders at jerusalem.....the Fire/Love spreads out from the throne(center), claiming all in its path and purging AND TRANSFORMING all in its wake until God is all in all. Transformation through judgment, from filthiness(carnality) to beauty....

Fire takes matter and converts it into spirit. That which was of earth is transformed and rises as smoke. It is all one and it is coming out from Jesus who is in the bosom of the Father who alone dwells in unapproachable light. Light is fire to darkness. The light shines in the darkness and the darkness cannot overcome it.(Jn 1)

Jeremiah 23:29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the Lord; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?

This is why the beauty of Genesis 1 is a diadem of revelation for interpreting the whole scroll....

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. 3 Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness.

At every level, from the individual, to the nation, to the eon, to the whole of mankind through out all time.... God speaks(He 12 see that you refuse not Him who speaks... for our God is a consuming fire), "Let there be light" and chaos gets separated into light and darkness, form rises out of the confusion, the void becomes the reservoir receiving fulness, until all is filled.

Roman 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse

Heb 1:1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.

The Son is the word, His word is a fire- the radiance of the Father's glory and the exact representation of  His nature. That radiance is a fire consuming the whole cosmos into God's love. "If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me".

[rosered]

I love what you shared from your heart , what God placed within it   John  :HeartThrob: :dsunny:


I know death can be interpreted  as literal   and  man knows the literal  meaning     ,   back to the  scattered dust state of being  , the clay container  was cracked open by the potters hand   ,,,,

And this  is what my husband and I still  continue to    discuss and not agree with  each other about   ...
  We still love each other and yet cannot agree    on the meaning  of death

   Life and death are in the POWER OF   the tongue /language     and   is the fruit of our own doing , the trees of knowledge of good and evil    , before the  tree of Life is granted 
make the tree good and it fruit or make the tree  bad   and tree is known by its fruit
carnal [animal ]  flesh is corruption

Christ fruit  is LIFE as  the HOLY SPIRIT OF TRUTH  witnesses to this proof

proverbs 18...20With the fruit of a man's mouth his stomach will be satisfied;

He will be satisfied with the product of his lips.


21Death and life are in the power of the tongue, And those who love it will eat its fruit.

22He who finds a wife finds a good thing And obtains favor from the LORD....



Matthew 12:37
For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."

Proverbs 10:19
Sin is not ended by multiplying words, but the prudent hold their tongues.

Proverbs 12:13
Evildoers are trapped by their sinful talk, and so the innocent escape trouble.

Proverbs 13:2
From the fruit of their lips people enjoy good things, but the unfaithful have an appetite for violence.

Proverbs 13:3
Those who guard their lips preserve their lives, but those who speak rashly will come to ruin.

Proverbs 21:23
Those who guard their mouths and their tongues keep themselves from calamity.

Isaiah 3:10
Tell the righteous it will be well with them, for they will enjoy the fruit of their deeds.

Hosea 10:13
But you have planted wickedness, you have reaped evil, you have eaten the fruit of deception. Because you have depended on your own strength and on your many warriors,

   for me  as   I can try to explain  death  in    a few words  , its a condition and state of being    mortal    ,  for me this is the death , that does not know anything outside of mortality

    Example of it being Peter  telling Jesus  in Matt 16      No Lord  you cannot die  on that Cross!!!   

Peter  was being adversarial     against Gods desire     when Jesus knowing this is exactly why He was sent     was to   SPEAK  GODS WORD and do Gods  work   and finish it   by dying on the cross   as proof that   Life  in the SPIRIT does not end in mortal death       and in Him doing so   would pour out His Spirit on all flesh 




not tasting the things of God  but be of men


22Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, "God forbid it, Lord! This shall never happen to You."


23But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me;


for you are not setting your mind on God's interests, but man's."


JESUS  tasted death for every man   

  Just as we are to taste God and know His goodness     

I am under the impression that     blessed is he who is in the first resurrection  , being Christs    one and  only   life and death and back to  being raised in power  over all things  and more abundant   LIFE IN THE SPIRIT  WITH POWER AND HONOR AND  BLESSING ETC ..  Showing us the way and how it is done     by GODS desire    and  design
Our greatest   example and  open show  of those hidden things that were not known before Christ come in the flesh    and  before He come   to be  within our flesh

by the HOLY SPIRIT OF TRUTH IN WORD AND DEED   BY GRACE ..

   the second death has no power , nor harm   in the fire  , because the HOLY SPIRIT AND WORD  ENDURES  FOREVER as the fire   increases

  Jesus  death on the cross  was to set the   whole world on fire   and melt the elements with fervent heat    :dsunny:

   man     like a beast will curse   God because of the heat    of the fire  , but the    humbled  and broken one will  pray/ cry out to  God for relief     from the heat and fire  melting the  [elements ]  first  state and principals  of  earthly temporal life   mortal thinking and mind set    that satan /adversary   kingdom /realm  of thoughts dwell in ,  J ust as Peter was thinking about trying to thwart     Gods desire   to save  , heal  the deadly wound of sin sickness  by  death    though the works of Jesus Christ  , His Son ...  WORD OF TRUTH ..From   our substance  of faith manifested made   real   /  Our daily bread of  heaven  ...     eat My body and drink My blood that YOU may have LIFE in You ...

  elements   heat    http://www.blbclassic.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4747&t=KJV

Those scriptures  describe   an earthly existence that is  meant to be consumed   by Gods consuming fire ...   in my opinion  brother ..

  :HeartThrob:  I love the life  in Christ   you shared   and made me think   on the pure and lovely things from above   today  and not below
   


   

[Dandelion]

So beautiful, to see the sequence and unfolding of God's perfect plan.

I was thinking while reading this, today, John, that I will print out some of these notes and make a book to give to people, to explain Christian UR.  I do believe, you are anointed.

It is amazing to me, that, as I go through the Scriptures now, I see new things, that I quickly passed by before, and I see connections in a new configuration.

Thank you, John, for this inspiring summary.  They are always a gift to us!

:HeartThrob:        :dsunny:      :iagree:

[sheila]

...these posts place me in a very contemplative spirit,today. I feel it must be on the Holy Spirit's agenda to speak of the transforming

fire,it's purpose and Father's will,to us all. Very timely, for this world is stored up for fire/transformation.

            when the present heavens are shaken...will judgement give way to love[mercy]? these 3 things remain..faith/hope/love

                         when His judgements are made manifest..then the people will learn righteousness....

                      May the Lord Jesus come..and set on fire all men's hearts.


                                                                        :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

Good post Eaglesway. While I see the Lake of Fire as death associated with sin and the wine of wrath rather than the saints themselves, I do see the saints administrating judgement. In fact, in Revelation is see them administering water to those in the fire, encouraging them to drink and receive life. And I totally agree that it's not an instantaneous process. The Bible tends to show God involved in processes rather than instantaneous fulfillment of his plans.  :thumbsup: :HeartThrob:

[rosered]

Good post Eaglesway. While I see the Lake of Fire as death associated with sin, death and the wine of wrath rather than the saints themselves, I do see the saints administrating judgement. In fact, in Revelation is see them administering water to those in the fire, encouraging them to drink and receive life.  :HeartThrob:

  Where you see them as    one or the other Seth I can see us  all   as both    sinner and saint     in the same body  , just those that have  come out of great tribulation and being washed clean   AND MADE WHITE  by the blood of the Lamb ..

as birthing   the sons of God  Christ[  Holy seed ]  manchild in them  [   White as a lamb is   white ]   

I do see the GREAT WHITE THRONE  AS ALL IN ALL    GOD BEING ONE ,,as found in God being the TRUE AND LIVING GOD     those chosen for this purpose



THRONE
Strong's G2362 - thronos
θρόνος
Transliteration
thronos
Pronunciation
thro'-nos (Key)

Part of Speech
masculine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
From thrao (to sit), a stately seat ("throne") 
TDNT Reference
3:160,338
Vines
View Entry
Outline of Biblical Usage
a throne seat

a chair of state having a footstool

assigned in the NT to kings, hence, kingly power or royalty

metaph. to God, the governor of the world

to the Messiah, Christ, the partner and assistant in the divine administration

hence divine power belonging to Christ

to judges i.e. tribunal or bench

to elders

 
Rev 20:11   And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Rev 7:9   After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;[the victory  celebration  and praise to God ]

r,

"Salvation comes from our God who sits on the throne
    and from the Lamb!"
11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living beings. And they fell before the throne with their faces to the ground and worshiped God. 12 They sang,

"Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom
    and thanksgiving and honor
and power and strength belong to our God
    forever and ever! Amen."
13 Then one of the twenty-four elders asked me, "Who are these who are clothed in white? Where did they come from?"

14 And I said to him, "Sir, you are the one who knows."

Then he said to me, "These are the ones who died in the great tribulation. They have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb and made them white.

15 "That is why they stand in front of God's throne
    and serve him day and night in his Temple.
And he who sits on the throne
    will give them shelter.
16 They will never again be hungry or thirsty;
    they will never be scorched by the heat of the sun.
17 For the Lamb on the throne
    will be their Shepherd.
He will lead them to springs of life-giving water.
    And God will wipe every tear from their eyes."
 
  These having the seal of God on their foreheads      for me it means they have the Mind of Christ obedient to Gods desire      JESUS CHRIST IS THE SEAL OF THE HOLY SPIRIT  OF TRUTH      as the BODY OF CHRIST IS  LIFTED UP FROM THE EARTH drawing all men unto Himself ...
  discerning the body of Christ     
we are not our own    ,,, ...28But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup.

29For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly.[CHRIST]


30For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep....

    awake o sleeper   Eph 5 Children of Light
...13But all things become visible when they are exposed by the light, for everything that becomes visible is light.


14For this reason it says, "Awake, sleeper, And arise from the dead, And Christ will shine on you." 15Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise,     the 5 wise and 5 foolish virgins parable ...

  Having the Holy Oil   in the lamp and waiting on the Lord to return     to them I believe the  second time   without reference to sin     in Hebrews 9 being the second death for the foolish ones    , but the wise  whom  wake up  shall shine     [ Dan12 ]    they all   10 slept 

Redemption through His Blood
...27And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,[ being the first death ]    dead  in Christ or   dead in sin   death is   found in judgement   as sleep in Jesus or sleep of Adam  all die .... 

I can see this as happening  in the here and now  and not so  much as  literal death of mortal flesh and blood as mankind sees it    , but a spiritual truth of  all our condition  or sate of being found    in,   A   sin state  or in the Christ   in you   state in judgment ..  till the second appearing  of the Lord  without sin     

28so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.  the wise virgins  clean and pure minded   

    chaste virgins for Christ     2 Cor 11 1I wish that you would bear with me in a little foolishness; but indeed you are bearing with me.


2For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ I might present you as a pure virgin.


3But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ....

   anything lovely thing pure dwell on these things         , they are the HOLY THINGS OF GOD ....

phil 4 8 Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.


9The things you have learned and received and heard and seen in me, practice these things, and the God of peace will be with you.

For me it is a  state of being  a  mind thing ,     Jesus comes as a thief  in the night    ...   none are awake or aware of   His return     ,    they did not know the time of their visitation   ...     Daystar/SUNRISE /SON RISING  has   visited us from on High !!!!!


77To give to His people the knowledge of salvation By the forgiveness of their sins,


78Because of the tender mercy of our God, With which the Sunrise from on high will visit us,

79TO SHINE UPON THOSE WHO SIT IN DARKNESS AND THE SHADOW OF DEATH, To guide our feet into the way of peace."...

I hope you can see this  ,  I could not see this for many years   , but praise God     he has healed   us   , eyes to see Him  and hears to hear Him and and a heart to understand  what the HOLY SPIRIT IS SAYING  showing us     Gods desire   though Jesus Christ  help    turning us    around to   healing   us all   from the deadly wound  of sin sickness  that leads to death ..  to  His  Life and purpose  in spiritual growth  in truth and grace  :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

Rose, when you say "I hope you can see this, I could not see for many years" it seems that what you are saying is that I am blinded to a truth you so clearly see. I don't have much a disagreement with the idea that we struggle with a carnal nature internally, but I hope that we can have a discussion where one person isn't submitting an idea that others need to "see" because if that is the case, if I am blind in your opinion, then you won't be open to anything I say and that makes it hard to share ideas.

I don't have much of a problem at all with the idea that there is a seed of carnality within each person, but I just don't believe that is what the lake of fire represents.

I do see the Lake of Fire from a different angle, but I do agree with John fundamentally that judgment is not instantaneous. I believe that resurrections have different glory and some are better than others, which is why the saints endured such persecution because they were hoping for a better one. I don't believe that all resurrections are the same, but each has a different glory.

My take on wrath is that it starts with ADAM.

When the Jewish people were handed over to Babylon for 70 years, some babies were born into slavery. They were born into the wrath which started before they were even born. In a sense we were all born into death. I see a correlation betwixt that and Adam's judgment bringing death into the world.

So, what I believe is that when the "wicked" are resurrected, they will still be "dead" (metaphysically, not knowing God yet) until they understand and bow their knees and confess. That doesn't mean I think that every single unbeliever will be pummeled by God for not believing. It could mean that their transition to life may be less painful or associated with loss than the "natural brute beasts" that Peter described who knew the way of repentance but left it.

Whether literally alive or not, I don't believe that anyone is truly alive until they know Jesus, and I don't believe that happens for everyone instantaneously at literal resurrection.

[sheila]

well, I think when we 'share' what we see, with other's on this board..we HOPE that they can see it too. I think we all do this.

but sometimes we don't agree when we share ideas..and that is fine.Acknowledging someones position on something..is hearing

them, but being convinced in your own mind,of what you shared..and holding preference to it,is not imo something to be

'scratched' from a discussion board.  even accusation of  'you holding to what you see/is the same as calling me blind and demeaning."


    Praise God..that all of our eyes are being opened daily unto things we had not previously seen!!

   


     

   

 

[Seth]

I agree Sheila, people have every right to hold their opinions. I'm not saying that holding to your opinion is an accusation of blindness, but if I post a scripture and underline and bold parts of the scripture, then and I say "I hope you can see this, I couldn't for a long time" suggests to me that I am still in the same state of unseeing that she once was, and all I need to do is see what the scriptures say to end my unseeing.

My only reason for bringing that up is in the hopes that we are at least open to consider what the other person is saying without the implication of sight or non-sight being an issue. Because if that is the issue, it would make it hard to find common ground through the discussion. Yes, I can read the scriptures and have a different point of view on what they say. Does that mean I am not seeing what the scripture says?

I'm just a guy sharing my point of view. It's one voice among many in the marketplace of ideas. As it happens, I have found many things to agree with in this thread, and have spoken out about what I agree with. I just might have a different take on fire, which may not be altogether different or removed from Eaglesway. Just a different angle. We definitely agree on the outcome.

[rosered]

Rose, when you say "I hope you can see this, I could not see for many years" it seems that what you are saying is that I am blinded to a truth you so clearly see. I don't have much a disagreement with the idea that we struggle with a carnal nature internally, but I hope that we can have a discussion where one person isn't submitting an idea that others need to "see" because if that is the case, if I am blind in your opinion, then you won't be open to anything I say and that makes it hard to share ideas.

I don't have much of a problem at all with the idea that there is a seed of carnality within each person, but I just don't believe that is what the lake of fire represents.

I do see the Lake of Fire from a different angle, but I do agree with John fundamentally that judgment is not instantaneous. I believe that resurrections have different glory and some are better than others, which is why the saints endured such persecution because they were hoping for a better one. I don't believe that all resurrections are the same, but each has a different glory.

My take on wrath is that it starts with ADAM.

When the Jewish people were handed over to Babylon for 70 years, some babies were born into slavery. They were born into the wrath which started before they were even born. In a sense we were all born into death. I see a correlation betwixt that and Adam's judgment bringing death into the world.

So, what I believe is that when the "wicked" are resurrected, they will still be "dead" (metaphysically, not knowing God yet) until they understand and bow their knees and confess. That doesn't mean I think that every single unbeliever will be pummeled by God for not believing. It could mean that their transition to life may be less painful or associated with loss than the "natural brute beasts" that Peter described who knew the way of repentance but left it.

Whether literally alive or not, I don't believe that anyone is truly alive until they know Jesus, and I don't believe that happens for everyone instantaneously at literal resurrection.

  wow Seth ....I did not mean it like that bro  :eek:  not at all..   maybe I worded it all wrong , but meant I did not see    both  working in us simultaneously
 

  I saw   one or the other   in a person   , as being either or    and with that I really struggled with  never ever   being  worthy .. That  IS  all I was trying to say here
  I am saying NOW  I have   some peace of mind , where I never ever could before  , that is all that was meant by it ..
  sorry if you were offended........  I am    never able to write like some  do with great clarity.....   I was not referring to you   personally , but a general statement

  although I did address your  post ....  everyone is blind till God gives us LIGHT  ,,,      I am still blind on many many things  , and I would be the first to confess it 

  when    pride rises up in someone you can sure see that  as ungodliness      , that  was never ever my  intention     here  :flowerred:


  so I beg your pardon    Seth

I believe many are in the lake of fire without even knowing it     , when  Jesus come to set the world of fire     by His own death  and more so His  resurrection , it was to give power to those   sitting in death   to rise up   and LIVE THOUGH HIM IN THE SPIRIT     , this is my understanding and this we do disagree with

I do believe in those whom reject  the gospel  in this life   still  , when they die   a physical   death are    going to be   awakened    to righteousness  and will be giving an account  of those times  they      could of , should have,  and would have    opportunity    but failed the test     

  I do believe that when   Jesus Christ come to make a short work of Righteousness in the earth     , it is  meaning or applying to everyones short and earthly life

From the  first Adam , man  being  930 years to  now being 70 years  more or less , much less for some ..     Gods mercy is what it is all about   in my opinion

when it is said ,  Gods wrath is  but  for a moment    , but His mercy endures  forever   ,,   I believe  , that the sinful state of mankind is   Gods mercy  on  the flesh   state of being because its is said     spirit would fail   in a man  of whom He created     every knee will bow and every tongue will confess , everyone will do this very thing now or  later .... all will ....   

Romans 9        The Calling of the Gentiles
...27Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED; 28FOR THE LORD WILL EXECUTE HIS WORD ON THE EARTH, THOROUGHLY AND QUICKLY." 29And just as Isaiah foretold, "UNLESS THE LORD OF SABAOTH HAD LEFT TO US A POSTERITY, WE WOULD HAVE BECOME LIKE SODOM, AND WOULD HAVE RESEMBLED GOMORRAH."


...15For thus says the high and exalted One Who lives forever, whose name is Holy, "I dwell on a high and holy place, And also with the contrite and lowly of spirit In order to revive the spirit of the lowly And to revive the heart of the contrite.

16"For I will not contend forever, Nor will I always be angry; For the spirit would grow faint before Me, And the breath of those whom I have made. 17"Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry and struck him; I hid My face and was angry, And he went on turning away, in the way of his heart....
ALL WILL SEE HIM FACE TO FACE     all will stand    , Accept their  sentence    and  bow   made humble  before  HIM ..................
Genesis 6:3
Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; their days will be a hundred and twenty years."

Psalm 85:5
Will you be angry with us forever? Will you prolong your anger through all generations?

Psalm 103:9
He will not always accuse, nor will he harbor his anger forever;

Ecclesiastes 12:7
and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Isaiah 42:5
This is what God the LORD says-- the Creator of the heavens, who stretches them out, who spreads out the earth with all that springs from it, who gives breath to its people, and life to those who walk on it:

Jeremiah 3:5
will you always be angry? Will your wrath continue forever?' This is how you talk, but you do all the evil you can."

Jeremiah 38:16
But King Zedekiah swore this oath secretly to Jeremiah: "As surely as the LORD lives, who has given us breath, I will neither kill you nor hand you over to those who want to kill you."

Ezekiel 18:4
For everyone belongs to me, the parent as well as the child--both alike belong to me. The one who sins is the one who will die.

Amos 1:11
This is what the LORD says: "For three sins of Edom, even for four, I will not relent. Because he pursued his brother with a sword and slaughtered the women of the land, because his anger raged continually and his fury flamed unchecked,

Micah 7:18
Who is a God like you, who pardons sin and forgives the transgression of the remnant of his inheritance? You do not stay angry forever but delight to show mercy.

Zechariah 12:1
A prophecy: The word of the LORD concerning Israel. The LORD, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the human spirit within a person, declares:2 "I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. 3 On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. 4 On that day I will strike every horse with panic and its rider with madness," declares the Lord. "I will keep a watchful eye over Judah, but I will blind all the horses of the nations. 5 Then the clans of Judah will say in their hearts, 'The people of Jerusalem are strong, because the Lord Almighty is their God.'

6 "On that day I will make the clans of Judah like a firepot in a woodpile, like a flaming torch among sheaves. They will consume all the surrounding peoples right and left, but Jerusalem will remain intact in her place.

7 "The Lord will save the dwellings of Judah first, so that the honor of the house of David and of Jerusalem's inhabitants may not be greater than that of Judah. 8 On that day the Lord will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the Lord going before them. 9 On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem.

Mourning for the One They Pierced
10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. 11 On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be as great as the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo.

12 The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives,

13 the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives, 14 and all the rest of the clans and their wives.
   

[rosered]

I agree Sheila, people have every right to hold their opinions. I'm not saying that holding to your opinion is an accusation of blindness, but if I post a scripture and underline and bold parts of the scripture, then and I say "I hope you can see this, I couldn't for a long time" suggests to me that I am still in the same state of unseeing that she once was, and all I need to do is see what the scriptures say to end my unseeing.

My only reason for bringing that up is in the hopes that we are at least open to consider what the other person is saying without the implication of sight or non-sight being an issue. Because if that is the issue, it would make it hard to find common ground through the discussion. Yes, I can read the scriptures and have a different point of view on what they say. Does that mean I am not seeing what the scripture says?

I'm just a guy sharing my point of view. It's one voice among many in the marketplace of ideas. As it happens, I have found many things to agree with in this thread, and have spoken out about what I agree with. I just might have a different take on fire, which may not be altogether different or removed from Eaglesway. Just a different angle. We definitely agree on the outcome.

   I was not calling you blind bro ,    That was never even    considered     , I was only  pointing to my own  blindness and   being honest  about it ,  I looked and never  called you  blind ?   

Just hoping you could relate ?????    , not saying you did not  relate  ............

  Oh my goodness  :sigh:

Never  even thought of that  accusing  spirit    ,  I hate the pride    and want no part of it   ever

I am  so sorry you took me the wrong way  :HeartThrob:      help is all I ever want to do , not harm or exalt      in any way ...and saddened you  would think that of me      :crywipe:


    peace bro  :gimmefive:

[Seth]

 

wow Seth ....I did not mean it like that bro    not at all..   maybe I worded it all wrong , but meant I did not see    both  working in us simultaneously
 
I saw   one or the other   in a person   , as being either or    and with that I really struggled with  never ever   being  worthy .. That  IS  all I was trying to say here
  I am saying NOW  I have   some peace of mind , where I never ever could before  , that is all that was meant by it ..
  sorry if you were offended........  I am    never able to write like some  do with great clarity.....   I was not referring to you   personally , but a general statement

No worries at all, Rose. I still agree with much of your post, that there is a carnal nature that is within us.

I didn't mean to make it sound like I was offended. I just wanted to know if we can be open to each other. It's just that I have heard so many times when people discuss scriptures, saying, do you see what the scriptures say? Can you see? And when they are both doing that, they aren't hearing each other. Again, not offended, just wanted to make sure we are in an open place with each other.

when    pride rises up in someone you can sure see that  as ungodliness      , that  was never ever my  intention     here  

Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying sis.  :HeartThrob: :friendstu:

I believe many are in the lake of fire without even knowing it     , when  Jesus come to set the world of fire     by His own death  and more so His  resurrection , it was to give power to those   sitting in death   to rise up   and LIVE THOUGH HIM IN THE SPIRIT     , this is my understanding and this we do disagree with

I do believe in those whom reject  the gospel  in this life   still  , when they die   a physical   death are    going to be   awakened    to righteousness  and will be giving an account  of those times  they      could of , should have,  and would have    opportunity    but failed the test     

Here is a place where I agree, but then a place where I have a different angle.

I also believe that many are in the lake of fire without knowing it, or at least a manifestation of the lake of fire. In other words, I do believe in a future judgement, and that the lake of fire represents is a death in sin which leads to the hearing of the gospel "come, let all who are athirst come drink." So, I believe that the LOF represents the pre-water-drinking state of those who didn't know God in the previous life. The post-water-drinking state is what the sharing of the gospel is for, in my opinion.

So I believe that the Saints will be sharing the Gospel in that judgment so that those in their fire-death-state will come drink the water unto life.

So when those who are resurrected hear the gospel, that is when I believe true life begins for them. I don't know the times and seasons, but I do believe the Bible indicates a time frame of more than an instant, even if it is short relative to the rest of existence.

In other words, I believe that the sharing of the Gospel will still be a key aspect to salvation in the next life. I don't think that will change from this life to the next.

[rosered]

Here is a place where I agree, but then a place where I have a different angle.

I also believe that many are in the lake of fire without knowing it, or at least a manifestation of the lake of fire. In other words, I do believe in a future judgement, and that the lake of fire represents is a death in sin which leads to the hearing of the gospel "come, let all who are athirst come drink." So, I believe that the LOF represents the pre-water-drinking state of those who didn't know God in the previous life. The post-water-drinking state is what the sharing of the gospel is for, in my opinion.

So I believe that the Saints will be sharing the Gospel in that judgment so that those in their fire-death-state will come drink the water unto life.

So when those who are resurrected hear the gospel, that is when I believe true life begins for them. I don't know the times and seasons, but I do believe the Bible indicates a time frame of more than an instant, even if it is short relative to the rest of existence.

I believe we actually  DO agree !! YAY!!!!! :girlheart:   :iagree:     and  not so far  apart ...     :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

Woo hoo!  :friendstu:

[eaglesway]

When we used to hear "cast into the lake of fire", "tormented in the presence of the Lord and His holy angels", "Depart from me into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels" we used to think it was a bad thing that lasted forever.

Now we know, thru the scriptures of the apostles nd prophets....fire is good thing, a corrective revelation where wheat gets separated from chaff, where alloys are separated out of the pure gold, where adversaries will be opened up to the One who is fire and who is also all consuming love, where clay pots get fired into  vessels after the potter finishes shaping them to their purpose.

Whatever one thinks the lake of fire is...it consumes darkness and veils and self and reveals the light of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ and transforms whatever is in it into pure spirit, flame and light...

Transformation is something fire always accomplishes.

I think that because the devil and his angels are cast into this fire, it is more than the reaping of sin in this life, because it is spoken of by Jesus in matthew 25, imo, as being a result of the judgment in the resurrection and also in Rev 14 and i think 19 or 20.

But in any case. I think there is only one fire and it is God, and it flows from the Lamp whose face is like the sun shining in its strength and  then through all those who are shining like the stars of heaven....children of the day. :2c:

[Seth]

I agree Eaglesway.  :thumbsup:  It's more than the reaping of sin in this life. I believe in a future judgment where reaping and sowing (which is an evident process in this life) is part of the learning process of the Lake of Fire in the next. For some people, that process may not need that much to lead them to repentance, maybe even just hearing the Gospel and responding. For others it could be much harder.

Because I believe the preaching of the Gospel is included in the final judgment evident in Revelation 22, that's why I do not believe the change will be instant.

Certainly, God could have made creation instantly perfect in the first place, so if he had any interest in doing that, he could have done it from the start. The reason I can think that he doesn't is because I think he is working on MAN helping MAN (through his empowerment), rather than God instantly doing everything with no repentance process. I believe it starts with Jesus who empowers his people, and his people turn around to help others, so it's like a seed that grows up of man helping man by the power of God, and that is why I believe God used the foolishness of preaching.

I think God is putting people together, and that is why I believe the saints have a part in judging the world, rather than God absent from the saints. To me, God is working on a grand plan to involve people helping people with his power.

[Shev]

Let the saints be joyful in glory;
Let them sing aloud on their beds.
Let the high praises of God be in their mouth,
And a two-edged sword in their hand,
To execute vengeance on the nations,
And punishments on the peoples;
To bind their kings with chains,
And their nobles with fetters of iron;
To execute on them the written judgment—
This honor have all His saints. (Psalm 149:5-9)

I may have posted this on here before, but I love this oft-forgotten passage from Psalm 149, as it shows that the saints will judge the world, that it is an honor and a cause of joy, and that it is accomplished by the two edged sword, which we know to be the word of God. It is a picture of the sword coming out of the mouth of Jesus being wielded by the hand of His body. This little passage does much to show the joyful end of judgment, even though there is clearly severity in it, hence the chains and fetters.

This ties into the fire with the following verse from Jeremiah also:

"Is not My word like a fire?" says the Lord,
"And like a hammer that breaks the rock in pieces?" (Jeremiah 23:29)

I think sometimes it is easy to think we live in the realm of realities, with the spiritual realm the land of metaphors, rather than realizing that we live in the land of shadow and metaphor.

[eaglesway]

That portion of psalm 149 is one of my favorite scriptures. I wrote a praise song using those verses.

[eaglesway]

I agree Eaglesway.  :thumbsup:  It's more than the reaping of sin in this life. I believe in a future judgment where reaping and sowing (which is an evident process in this life) is part of the learning process of the Lake of Fire in the next. For some people, that process may not need that much to lead them to repentance, maybe even just hearing the Gospel and responding. For others it could be much harder.

Because I believe the preaching of the Gospel is included in the final judgment evident in Revelation 22, that's why I do not believe the change will be instant.

Certainly, God could have made creation instantly perfect in the first place, so if he had any interest in doing that, he could have done it from the start. The reason I can think that he doesn't is because I think he is working on MAN helping MAN (through his empowerment), rather than God instantly doing everything with no repentance process. I believe it starts with Jesus who empowers his people, and his people turn around to help others, so it's like a seed that grows up of man helping man by the power of God, and that is why I believe God used the foolishness of preaching.

I think God is putting people together, and that is why I believe the saints have a part in judging the world, rather than God absent from the saints. To me, God is working on a grand plan to involve people helping people with his power.

absolutement!

[eaglesway]

Origen wrote:
The restoration to unity must not be imagined as a sudden happening. Rather it is to be thought of as gradually effected by stages during the passing of countless ages. Little by little and individually the correction and purification will be accomplished. Some will lead the way and climb to the heights with swifter progress, others following right behind them; yet others will be far behind. Thus multitudes of individuals and countless orders, who once were enemies, will advance and reconcile themselves to God; and so at length the last enemy will be reached... —De Principiis III.vi.6

courtesy of member Paidon evangelicaluniversalist.com

[Dandelion]

I don't know very much at all about 'end times prophesy', as both my Catholic and Lutheran heritage, almost never speak about it or study those scriptures.

But, I do believe that it is not 'instantaneous' as that just doesn't ring true to me, as God is not one to deal in masses, but rather individually. He is a God who takes a
keen interest in each of our lives, .....I have woven you in your mother's womb......I count all the hairs on your head........look at the lilies, the sparrows; therefore I will look out for you..... and so on.

His crucifiction was for each of us:

...19"For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God. 20"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. 21"I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly." Galatians 2:19 - 21. 

And, as far as us helping each other achieve our goals of purification, that also rings true of who God is, as he asks us repeatedly to love one another.....love the least of your brothers......forgive over and over again..........The Good Samaritan........and, on and on.

And, we have this passage:

1Brethren, even if anyone is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, so that you too will not be tempted. 2Bare one another's burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ. 3For if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself....Galatians 6:1-3

We are to bare each other's burdens........ that is a huge calling on us all. I see it even more so, in light of Christian UR, because, rather than us going to hell, if we do not accept God's sovereignty, we see a God who is willing to pursue each one of us, until we are ready for heaven.

A God who truly loves us, 'with an everlasting love'.

'Love never fails'. 1 Corinthians 13:8

:iagree:         :HeartThrob:

[joeteekay]

I do see the Lake of Fire from a different angle, but I do agree with John fundamentally that judgment is not instantaneous. I believe that resurrections have different glory and some are better than others, which is why the saints endured such persecution because they were hoping for a better one. I don't believe that all resurrections are the same, but each has a different glory.


So, what I believe is that when the "wicked" are resurrected, they will still be "dead" (metaphysically, not knowing God yet) until they understand and bow their knees and confess. That doesn't mean I think that every single unbeliever will be pummeled by God for not believing. It could mean that their transition to life may be less painful or associated with loss than the "natural brute beasts" that Peter described who knew the way of repentance but left it.

Whether literally alive or not, I don't believe that anyone is truly alive until they know Jesus, and I don't believe that happens for everyone instantaneously at literal resurrection.

When we used to hear "cast into the lake of fire", "tormented in the presence of the Lord and His holy angels", "Depart from me into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels" we used to think it was a bad thing that lasted forever.

Now we know, thru the scriptures of the apostles nd prophets....fire is good thing, a corrective revelation where wheat gets separated from chaff, where alloys are separated out of the pure gold, where adversaries will be opened up to the One who is fire and who is also all consuming love, where clay pots get fired into  vessels after the potter finishes shaping them to their purpose.

Whatever one thinks the lake of fire is...it consumes darkness and veils and self and reveals the light of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ and transforms whatever is in it into pure spirit, flame and light...

Transformation is something fire always accomplishes.

I think that because the devil and his angels are cast into this fire, it is more than the reaping of sin in this life, because it is spoken of by Jesus in matthew 25, imo, as being a result of the judgment in the resurrection and also in Rev 14 and i think 19 or 20.

But in any case. I think there is only one fire and it is God, and it flows from the Lamp whose face is like the sun shining in its strength and  then through all those who are shining like the stars of heaven....children of the day. :2c:

There is oh so much to this topic of Judgement and Fire. Where does one start? We on this forum are pretty clued in the the truth of Gods plan of salvation for all humanity. Praise GOD. :banana:

Very valuable contributions from everyone.

There are some scriptures that speak of judging every man's work in fire.  And this has to do with ultimate restoration, the salvation of all by Almighty God..

All humanity and all angelic messengers will be judged in one of these two primary judgements by fire. One in this eon, the age of grace, the other in the White Throne Judgement time.


John 5:22  For the Father judges no man, but has committed all judgment unto the Son.


Judgment is upon the building of God's house as each individual believer is framed and fitted for the calling that God has for each individual. This judgment began in the days of the Apostles after the resurrection of our Lord.

It continued generation after generation down through the age until today when it yet continues. And it will continue still further until the entire harvest of firstfruits is completed. If we would judge ourselves now, Paul said we would not be condemned with the world later.


I Cor. 11:32    But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.


It is while we are living and building that our works are being tried and judged by fire according to how we are building. Gods fire is Spirit.  Since God is GOOD (Luke 18:19), and God is SPIRIT (John 4:24), and God is INVISIBLE (Col. 1:15), therefore God's fire is good.


1Co 3:12  Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

1Co 3:13  Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

1Co 3:14  If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

1Co 3:15  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


Valuable traits of Godly spiritual character are gold, silver, precious stones. But carnal traits of no value are wood, hay, stubble.

Every thought, every word, and every deed that proceeds out of the heart and mind of man is his works.  And every thought, every word, and every deed of man will come into the judgment of Almighty God's consuming fire.  It is both our things of great value: "gold, silver, precious stones," and our things of no value: "wood, hay, stubble" that are tried in the fire, God's consuming fire.


Every man's work, his thoughts, words, and deeds,  shall be made manifest.  It will become known, come to light.  The day shall declare it and make it evident, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Only God's spiritual fire can burn away spiritual wickedness and evils of the heart.

This fire of God SAVES people who go through it! There is salvation by means of this fire. This fire is part of God's judgment and grace.   Every one goes through it.

There are two main places in all Scripture which clearly show where every man's work is tried and judged in fire.  They are in I Cor. 3, which was just mentioned, and Rev. 20.

The fire of I Cor. 3 accomplishes the very same thing as the lake of fire of Rev. 20 accomplishes, but in different time frames.  Both of these fires are symbolic. God's spiritual fire burns up human character flaws. We are not told of this "wood, straw and stubble" in the lake of fire, nor of the "gold, silver and precious stones.

A lake or pond, is a body of water, and in this case is a body of spiritual fire that can engulf a multitude of people.  The White Throne Jusdgment for all humanity rich or poor, small and great.


Rev 20:11  And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Rev 20:12  And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works

Rev 20:13  And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Rev 20:14  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Rev 20:15  And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


The spiritual fire of God is at work in the Elect, now,  in this eon.

1Pe 1:7  That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

1Pe 4:12  Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

  The lake of fire will be the White Throne Judgment period in the last eon or beyond, for the rest of humanity.


Mal 3:2  But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Jer 23:29  Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?

Php 2:10  That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Php 2:11  And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Yes, to the glory of God the Father.