Recent Forum Issues

[jabcat]

Hello all.

There have been some recent struggles on the forum.  Much of it, IMO, over DETAILS that could have just as easily been summarized in a very basic manner with which we could all (hopefully agree) and then move on to something more fruitful.  For instance, "we agree Jesus is the Savior, believe on Him, with His help follow Him".   

Whether agreeing on some things or not, TM is NOT a general debate forum.  The idea and ideal - actually expectation is, that we don't struggle, argue, raise conflict.  There are basic things TM stands for, things that are "bottom lines".  Much varying discussion is allowed, AS LONG AS it's in the spirit of IN MY OPINION, AS I UNDERSTAND - "here's how I see it, here's why" and then MOVE ON to something else.  * Here's a key - if one PERSISTS in their point of view on the PUBLIC BOARDS that is clearly not in accord with the mission and ideal of TM forum, then it will be addressed accordingly by the moderators.  And that's their job.  It's NOT their job to be inundated (and even accosted) by PM either.  *Another key;  discussion is one thing, and encouraged.  Haranguing, pestering, insisting, etc., even by PM is NOT encouraged.  i've yet to get full details, but apparently one of our moderators has taken some heat from the "all are already saved crowd", whoever that is and whatever that means. 

So it might be useful to remember what TM is for and believes.  It's mostly posted in the Forum Guidelines.  It includes things like;

1)  Jesus and Jesus alone is the Savior, and He will save all - in their order.
2) One must have a belief in Him as Savior to be reconciled in this age.
3) NOT all are saved at this point.  Only some now, who have been given the faith to believe and receive Him - that "those who receive Him He gave the right to become a child of God".  And believers are required by God to proclaim Jesus as Savior and hold Him out as the One on which they must believe.
4)  All the rest will be given belief and salvation when every knee bows and every tongue confesses JESUS - not until then, and in God's timing.
5)  TM is a discussion forum, NOT a debate forum.  State your opinion, show why, maybe discuss a bit, then be willing to move to something else.  We should not just roll over others, especially for personal reasons.  (Again, the moderators do have the responsibility to upholding "bottom lines", per guidelines, per right attitude, through LOVE and for a good purpose).

If you agree with that, great.  If not, then still it's expected that posting will RESPECT that POV - and if there's a varying belief, it can be suggested, discussed TO A POINT - but also in the guidelines is that any ONGOING TEACHING that is against the beliefs/teaching of Gary Amirault (the TM forum) is not allowed.  The moderators have the responsibility to address and yes, even enforce that at some point.  And they will not be subjected to attack for doing what's required of them.

I'm not naming names here, so if no one's guilty, great.  Don't worry about it and keep doing what you're doing.  Thank you.  If there's anything here that does apply to you (some of it does to me) then we need to take it to heart, and do whatever the Lord leads in our personal life to let Him deal with it within us.

Thanks, and God bless and help us all.

[joeteekay]

I really appreciate what you are saying Jabcat. My two points:

1. I love this forum because it does give more "elbow room' than another forum I visit on occasion. And your points are really appropriate and I hope we can all abide with the forum guidelines.

2. If I happen to violate these principles in one of my posts, please PM me and I will take it to heart. Correction is part of our Christian walk.

Joe  :HeartThrob: :Peace2:

[Dandelion]

Yes, me too. I want to know if there is any problem or issue with what I say or do on this site.

Sometimes, I can be quite oblivious to things..... I would much rather know, as soon as something I do is even slightly off the track.

And, if I offend anyone, please let me know. It will not be intentional, but I have been called 'brutally honest'. Scary for someone who hardly spoke for my first 25 years or so!    :eek:

So, to paraphrase what you are saying, jabcat, if I may......present our ideas, without trying to convince any one of them?  Would that cover at least some of your statement?

D. 

[jabcat]

Thanks Joe, appreciated.

Dandelion, yes, that covers a lot of it.  Especially if we're presenting something that is contrary to what Gary teaches and/or the mission and expectations of TM.  It's a fine line, and the moderators are charged with monitoring it.  That's why much is allowed (it's not a Nazi thing), but things that are contrary are at some point limited.  Usually gently at first, and ideally always gently/in the right spirit and for the right reasons (keeping within the mission of TM). 

Usually the moderators get in a discussion just because they're also members of the forum and may just want to talk about a particular topic like everyone else.  Occasionally they weigh in though because there's a sense that things are wandering where they're not supposed to go (ex., a prayer to "the Unknown God" presented as evidence, that since it has some "spiritual" language in it and has a "loving tone", that someone can know God without coming to Him through Jesus).  Again, most often that's done with just a gentle nudge, a reminder, a redirection/refocus.  I'm personally wondering though if that's effective enough and we should just be more direct and say "that's going places we aren't going", and cut it off.  (*I'm not asking for moderator critique by saying this, that's not a topic for open discussion.  Just please take it as a thought/suggestion, under consideration).  We'll make that determination as things progress, including further review and discussion of recent events.  But again, the balancing act is that we want discussion and openness, and not to just be standing around "slapping hands".  It's an ongoing effort to be artful and appropriate, while still being accountable for the functioning of the forum.  We don't always get it right, we're all human with our own personalities, weaknesses, etc. Sometimes we might overstep our bounds, sometimes we might should act sooner or in a different manner.  We talk about things, look to the Lord for guidance, and learn as we go.

Anyway, thanks for weighing in. 

[rosered]

 for weighing in.

  James  , just let me know ....God bless  :dsunny:

[jabcat]

:)  you too rose..have a blessed day!

[gregoryfl]

Well, I will come right out and say that I know I am one of those you are mentioning, as far as having differences of understanding than Gary and others here on the forum. I have been around since the end of 2008 (hard to believe it has been that long for me personally), and one thing that has changed over the years for me is that I truly do not desire getting into any back and forth with anyone concerning things others do not agree with. I have seen it work such evil in my heart toward the other person, who is my brother or sister.

When I got to the point where I left the board for a while, in reassessing my motives and how I wish to interact with others, I have come away with what I hope is acceptable here. While I may from time to time drop a post here and there on something I know might be disagreed with, it is only that others may clearly understand where I am coming from, nothing more. If I get a sense that it will turn into a page after page back and forth over this point and that point, this scripture and that scripture (similar to how I argued as one of Jehovah's Witnesses and the Worldwide Church of God), then I know it is time to drop it and maintain peace.

Most of the time though I try to bring my unique perspective, coming from an Hebraic background of the culture I am immersed in, and the Aramaic text of the 1st century writings (which does contain some interesting things with regard to universal reconciliation)...not to argue about, but simply to connect with whoever might benefit from it. As long as that is deemed acceptable, I will continue to do so as I feel led.

Ronen

[ed]

Things that differ.

"This is my prayer that your love may be more

and more accompanied by clear knowledge and keen perception,
FOR TESTING THINGS THAT DIFFER

so that you may be men of transparent character, blameless in

preparation for The Day of Christ."

Weymouth's Phil. 1:10

http://thedifferentiator.net/intro.html

Good job to he mods who always bring it back to the Lord Jesus Christ (of the Bible).  He is far above all!

:thumbsup:

[jabcat]

Thank you both, good words.  We're looking at ways to make things more clear for everybody, including ourselves.  Right now where we are, no real huge problem with mentioning a view we might have that differs, acknowledging (or posting in the spirit of) "I know others might not see it this way, and I could be wrong".  Better yet, maybe even posting in the spirit of "I've thought this recently, what are your thoughts on it"?  Truly in the spirit of examination and exploration, rather than "I'm going to prove this to you".     It may be discussed a little bit, but if it continues into some struggle and/or doubled down on as an insistence that "I'm going to teach that here or else", then a moderator will step in and basically say, "alright, this has been aired, here are x,y,z sides to it, the bottom line for the forums is ___________ (based on guidelines/expectations), let's move on".  Then if that's not done, the thread will likely be locked, the member in question addressed, etc., etc...

Listed in the OP is a summary of some of the mission of TM, so that will be maintained as the default and go-back-to (I just made that up) point.  Otherwise, there can become a cacophony of noise that would make it almost impossible for someone simply seeking the Lord Jesus and God's plan for the ages to be able to sift through it all and come away with THE BASICS OF THE FAITH.  That goal and distinct intent might easily become lost in all our meanderings, fruitless struggles, and personal insistence on being right, and that person FOR WHOM THIS SITE IS PRIMARILY BUILT, could go away still lost and wondering/wandering. 

Thanks again for understanding, for your support, and God bless and help.

[CHB]

Pray I haven't posted anything that shouldn't have been posted? I don't have time for much posting but I do try to read most of the posts.

CHB

[jabcat]

Not at all C.   It's not all that vague (the 5 things listed along with a few others).  It's usually when we get in struggles over things that might not be considered basics of the faith, and it goes on, and on, and on.  (well, sometimes it is actually IS about things that Gary/TM does consider basics of the faith  :footmouth:)    Recently has just been an overly active season for that, causing us to re-examine ourselves and how things have been operating.   We're trying to figure it out.  It's always a work in progress :)

[eaglesway]

I am as easily drawn into debate as anyone. I try to keep the conversation here on the forum in a realm that others who come here will be challenged to re-evaluate their understanding of eternal judgment and the salvation of all- not every other doctrine there is. Sometimes I get over zealous in that, but it is not an easy thing to do, because we have many different backgrounds.

For example, some people think that the root of the ET doctrine is the free will doctrine.

I think UR is perfectly compatible with either free will, total sovereignity or anything in between.

I really dont think I fully understand the balance of that- but then, I dont think anybody else does either. So, to keep the forum open for either view, I present UR from both views- not for the purpose of debate on that issue, but to keep it open for seekers from both views.

There are other issues like this, where differences of opinion are acceptable, as long as they are not presented as THE truth- with the exception of the 5 things jabcat posted that are fundamentals on the site.

So when you add those 5 established fundamentals and trying to keep the rest of it limited so that someone searching out UR deosnt get the feeling that every other thing they believe has to be challenged FIRST- it gets complicated.

It is not, and really never has been about establishing doctrine in those other areas- it is about UR, the salvation of all.

James and I have been talking about ways to do this without(especially me :o) getting drawn into debates. that is why I stepped back for a few days. I dissapointed in myself for my exchange with Seth, and tho I think Seth and I have reached an understanding, I dont want to get in that mode again.

This has been a recurring problem on the board over the years, I am not sure we will get the handle onit now, but we have to try something different.

The basics of salvation by grace through faith, the authority of the word, Jesus as the only begotten son of God, Jesus as Lord of all, discipleship and obedience to the Lord by the Spirit,  progressive sanctification, walking in love, etc.- are really all pretty simple truths. Sometimes we get caught up in more esoteric views,shades of understanding on those things that are not necessarily true or false issues. They could be fine as discussions if they can be kept in the slow lane- but they rarely stay that way, because everyone tends to share what they believe as "the truth", and it is often tough to have someone else say, "I dont think that is true".

So we are trying to come up with a way to reduce those kinds of threads, and moderate them rather than play referee or present our own views in the discussion.

As James said in the OP, at a certain point we can just say somethng general like. "We believe Jesus is Savior, believe on Him, with His help, follow Him."

Sometimes I am reluctant to lock threads when I am in an intense discussion with someone because then it may look like I am controling the forum according to my own beliefs, so from now on I will not be getting as involved in discussions, and concentrate more on moderation.

I apologize to anyone I have offended, just in general. Moderating and sharing as a member at the same time is tricky sometimes.

[Dandelion]

Great points, eaglesway!       :thumbsup:

I think a section with a 'Christian dictionary of terms' might help.

As a convert from Catholicism to Lutheran, I know that people use the same words, such as 'grace', and mean entirely different things.

Also, my ministries bring me into contact with people from all different denominations, and it is almost like being a tourist, going into different countries, with different cultures, when I visit all these Churches and speak to Pastors, Deacons and Elders from them.  :dunno2:

What happens is everyone is saying the same thing, and thinking entirely different things, and it can get messy.

Or, some churches use words and terms, that are 'foreign' to people from some other denominations, or non-denominations.    :Chinscratch:

Maybe, we could all say a prayer for our moderators, to come to the best solution, to glorify God, which is, what I believe, we are all here to do.

Just a thought..........      :2c:


:grouppray:

[sheila]

Amen,yes,they need our prayers... :HeartThrob:  big responsibility..and commendable work.. :Pray:

[Patinak]

Great points, eaglesway!       :thumbsup:

I think a section with a 'Christian dictionary of terms' might help.

As a convert from Catholicism to Lutheran, I know that people use the same words, such as 'grace', and mean entirely different things.

Also, my ministries bring me into contact with people from all different denominations, and it is almost like being a tourist, going into different countries, with different cultures, when I visit all these Churches and speak to Pastors, Deacons and Elders from them.  :dunno2:

What happens is everyone is saying the same thing, and thinking entirely different things, and it can get messy.

Or, some churches use words and terms, that are 'foreign' to people from some other denominations, or non-denominations.    :Chinscratch:

Maybe, we could all say a prayer for our moderators, to come to the best solution, to glorify God, which is, what I believe, we are all here to do.

Just a thought..........      :2c:


:grouppray:

Good idea about the dictionary section!  Good reasoning.  Good ending of a post.  I think I see a future Moderator.  :icon_queen:

[rosered]

It is a huge responsibility ! prayers to James and John  :HeartThrob:    :Pray:

[CHB]

Yes, I agree rosered. They both need our prayers. Sometimes I know it has to be hard to keep things going in a calm, orderly and friendly manner. I do believe it is necessary for the Mods to give their opinion. At least I value their opinion a lot. Thanks to both Jabcat, and Eaglesway for the time they spend keeping this forum peaceful and in order.  :HeartThrob:  :Pray:

CHB

[jabcat]

 all the support and understanding

:HeartThrob:   :thumbsup:   :dsunny:   :Peace2:

[Dandelion]

Great points, eaglesway!       :thumbsup:

I think a section with a 'Christian dictionary of terms' might help.

As a convert from Catholicism to Lutheran, I know that people use the same words, such as 'grace', and mean entirely different things.

Also, my ministries bring me into contact with people from all different denominations, and it is almost like being a tourist, going into different countries, with different cultures, when I visit all these Churches and speak to Pastors, Deacons and Elders from them.  :dunno2:

What happens is everyone is saying the same thing, and thinking entirely different things, and it can get messy.

Or, some churches use words and terms, that are 'foreign' to people from some other denominations, or non-denominations.    :Chinscratch:

Maybe, we could all say a prayer for our moderators, to come to the best solution, to glorify God, which is, what I believe, we are all here to do.

Just a thought..........      :2c:


:grouppray:

Good idea about the dictionary section!  Good reasoning.  Good ending of a post.  I think I see a future Moderator.  :icon_queen:

That is so kind, Patinak. You obviously don't know me that well though.......I am quite 'out of the box' in many ways......maybe, even 'out of this world'. Hahaha.  :LH:


:Gdance:

[marie glen]

Amen,yes,they need our prayers... :HeartThrob:  big responsibility..and commendable work.. :Pray:

    :thumbsup: :thumbsup: I totally agree! :smile: :thumbsup: