God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions

[Caffus]

This is a very complex issue...I can see a way no will can be true and mercy and grace still necessary as we still missed the mark, sinned. ..and must be corrected and redeemed even if not blamed. But it seems to me that sometimes we are blamed truly guilty and must be sorry and repent before forgivnes is granted and other times we arecontolled completely.  Jesus showed no anger when He said Father forgive them for they no not what they do."
He seemed to be angry and cocerned mainly with the sin of pride and self rightousenes.  I do believe now that we have a limited will of our own.  Like we as parents are supposed to overcome are children's will when they want something we know is not good for them. Our Father does for us..difference is He never goes weary and His love never fails. :Peace2:

[Tom]

I think the only way "no will," as you say, can really be true is if we're dead, but I think the thing is that the human will is not really what is meant by "free will" because, whether we believe it or not, we're subject to spirit powers. If we're wise, we'll be subject to God rather than the Adversary, but faith is a gift from God that some have and some don't. I believe a time will come though when all will know, not just believe, and all will willingly and gladly subject themselves to the love of God when God is all in all.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/StudiesInPhilippians/Philippians05.html

[ian]

It seems to me free will would only discredit God, giving power to man.

I think the terrestrial experience is to teach us what love is, I mean what it really is, by making a profound distinction. I believe those who are called may have a better understanding of love in this age, but still very incomplete (until being made whole?). I certainly wouldn't suggest that God doesn't desire our love any more than suggest He doesn't love all, but why have someone to love if they don't understand it? Furthermore, why be loved by ones not good? I love God now, seeing pieces of a beautiful puzzle, yet not even knowing the image, how unremarkable is my love?

We all have desires, certainly. Even those detract from will though, as I see it. For instance, an addict desires a vice, but perhaps it is his 'will' to stop.

Google search of perceived free will scripture: I see action and reaction, but still no evidence that we perform any deed outside the will of God.

[Caffus]

I meant no will of our own to use apart from His will. For instance children can do stuff we don't want them too....but then we are to correct them..even when they are strong willed against doing things our way. That is limited will...to me.  No will to me means everything we do is only what God as planned for us to do be it good or bad...and He works out every detail for good in the end of the ages.

[ed]

We don't choose God. God chose us before the disruption of the world.

We do choose what we want to believe.

God chose who before the foundation of the world?  Each individual?  God chose us, who would believe, but not the individual.  The individual goes through a life of choice.  The doctrines that you have chosen, may well be entirely wrong........how would you know?

The only way that you know is by the fruit that you enjoy in your sovereign life.  You have chosen what you want to believe and you are satisfied with the results of those choices.

Does God have faith in mankind?  Did God put His faith in mankind?  Did God leave our lives up to hope?  I say yes.  God had one strong man, the man Jesus Christ.  The rest are left up to faith, in this life.  God believed that mankind would and could make the right choices.  In no way do I automatically make the right the choices because God ordained it.  I learn to make good choices, but there are no guarantees, other then the fact that God is love.  Man becomes valiant though a faith that is worked, not a faith that is given.

[Aerex]

Well we can agree to disagree. I just don't agree that God has faith in mankind as if there was something in man. If we had the foreknowledge and wisdom of God perhaps we could make choices on our own accord. If we get into the argument that our choices really matter then it is safe to say that we have something to boast about.

Am I implying that we are mere puppets. Perhaps but my question to you would be why you value your choices.

[ed]

Well we can agree to disagree. I just don't agree that God has faith in mankind as if there was something in man. If we had the foreknowledge and wisdom of God perhaps we could make choices on our own accord. If we get into the argument that our choices really matter then it is safe to say that we have something to boast about.

Am I implying that we are mere puppets. Perhaps but my question to you would be why you value your choices.

We all have influences that effect our value system and choices.  I am told that every man is endowed by his Creator with inalienable rights.  I like this because it fits and works.  It is an influence that I have thought about, tested, and found to be true.  Liberty is an inalienable right, liberty is free will.  I value liberty because God has entrusted it to me.  Every part of live is not only a gift, but a responsibility, starting right with Adam and the Garden.  I have come to love the things that God has entrusted me with.  Life is an honor to live...........another inalienable right.  Living life honorably is choice.

Good questins Aerex.

[Caffus]

This is not an essential doctrine to belief in UR.  But I do believe it is an important one.  I would believe in limited will..by my own understanding.  But I believe that I am not listening to the Spirit, while accepting that. As when I believe He has total and complete control of all creation I am more at peace and feel a greater awe for our Father.  He is to incredible for the human mind to fully understand or describe.  :cloud9:

[rosered]

 
  How can we  put this,   and how can we see   for ourselves what is right in the sight of God ?

   I recall   reading   the   words of Jesus  saying   this  Make the tree good and its fruit good or make the tree corrupt and its fruit corrrupt a TREE is known by its fruit


  I asked Jesus  how ?     Jesus what does this mean ?
  The first challege was  understanding we are compared to trees      , being the  trees of knowledge of good and evil     
  so we have a chioce to make    good fruit to God or bad fruit to God
  from what is     within our own  trees of knowledge  of good and evil
  we reap what we sow   the flesh is  considered      corrupted ''ruined ''  and no good thing is in our flesh   its useless  on its own   short  stay here  in being mortal
  the good is the Spirit in a man   being  alone  , is not good  we need Jesus   Spirit  too as the double witness 
  seeing the   spirit God gave mankind  and  seeing this must connect  and be in union with the Spirit of Christ

  I saw this one day  when reading the bible   Romans 8 Control by the Spirit
9However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness....

    don't you know the Spirit of God   dwells   in you     ? and YOU are the temple of the Living God , wow God is with us   than , not some far off  place

To my surprise I did not know this     and just like a flash of Light out of no where   ''  something was revealed to me I  never knew before

  Gods Word is  LIFE to the spirit  man inside you  , it moves us to    think different than the ways we did before   

I believe we choose the good and make it good fruit being repentant   and change your mind to the'' Christ mind''    from that old carnal man of sin   

      that obedience   Jesus Christ demonstrated    to the Father     is where you will inherit   the TREE OF LIFE  and the perfect  and complete   
fulless   will come      from choosing to make the tree good and its fruit good  , this would be the  works of faith      in believing Jesus as His Word   

and seek , knock and find  for yourself     as you become satisfied  when He gives  you the HOLY SPIRIT    and all  the good things    in Jesus Christ to continue     to come ...

  I am not sure this is helpful
  but it did help me      when I was not consoled by not  being  able to understand   Gods Word at all  ...  very hard place and do have compassion  having  the same troubles even  today with some scriptures  , but I have learned to trust Jesus   to show me   His way  by the Spirit and truth   

 

  Jesus Christ is the one whom opens the seals up   in the books     of death and life  by His  Testimony /witness    being   the  Spirit of prophecy     

 


1 Cor 3
Worldly Wisdom is Foolishness to God



...21So then let no one boast in men. For all things belong to you,

22whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or things present or things to come; all things belong to you, 23and you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God.

[Caffus]

I have no desire to have or be anything apart from His will..as I trust it's always the best. No matter how painful duringthis age it maybe.  I believe at the end of the ages when God prefects us all through Christ. There will be no evil and no longer need for any control. 

[Abigail]

I just don't agree that God has faith in mankind as if there was something in man.

:iagree:
I think God has faith in the power of His love that's able to overcome all evil choices of men

[ed]

I just don't agree that God has faith in mankind as if there was something in man.

:iagree:
I think God has faith in the power of His love that's able to overcome all evil choices of men

It was a revelation to me as well.  One verse made me ponder the fact.

2 Corinthians 5:18
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

God limited himself by giving us the responsibility of the ministry of reconciliation.

God must trust us to carry out the ministry.  He put faith in us to do this on Christ's accord.  We are in Christ and Christ is in us, so he has put faith in us through Christ who was proven trustworthy.  Jesus Christ is the king of heaven, and far above all principality and power, and might and dominion, and any other name that is named among men.  That one, the living Lord of heaven, who lives in us has given us the responsibility. 

2 Cor 5:20
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did exhort you by us; we beseech you in Christ's name, be ye reconciled to God.

Being an ambassador is a trust given by the one who sends him.

On a smaller level, in the smallest way, in every action, we show Christ in our daily lives.  God does not do this for us, Christ does not force this, it is a relationship built on faith between all involved.

:peace2:

[Tom]

"Faith," from the Greek "pistis," literally "belief," is the noun for "believe."

"Faith is an assumption of what is being expected, a conviction concerning matters which are not being observed. (Hebrews 11:1)

I believe, have faith, that God doesn't need faith because he knows all.

[ed]

This is not an essential doctrine to belief in UR.

I agree.  It is a doctrine that comes up a lot when discussing UR, ET, and annihilation.

ET and annihilation must choose between who is responsible for the ultimate end of mankind.  That is why the free will discussion comes up, it is either God or man.

The UR believer knows that God is sovereign and the ultimate end of each individual was purposed before the foundation of the world,  It is inescapable.  I'm mainly talking about the present heaven and earth when it comes to free will.

But I do believe it is an important one.  I would believe in limited will..by my own understanding.  But I believe that I am not listening to the Spirit, while accepting that.

All things are of God, including our growing in understanding, at present we have time.

:)

As when I believe He has total and complete control of all creation I am more at peace and feel a greater awe for our Father.  He is to incredible for the human mind to fully understand or describe.  :cloud9:

God has limited himself to us, He will not control our affairs.  God has given us responsibility, and He will not do our responsibility for us, there are no excuses........only forgiveness.  When we are forgiven for not living up to our responsibility, we stand anew, to carry on with and in our responsibility.  We will "stand anew" many times in our lifespan, for that I am exceedingly thankful.

Just talking Caffus, I appreciate you putting up with me.

ed

[ed]

"Faith," from the Greek "pistis," literally "belief," is the noun for "believe."

"Faith is an assumption of what is being expected, a conviction concerning matters which are not being observed. (Hebrews 11:1)

I believe, have faith, that God doesn't need faith because he knows all.

Omniscience..........cool.   Yes, I believe in omniscience, God knows all.  I have no idea, what that really means though, from God's point of view.  How does God use omniscience?  Does God control our thoughts because God knows our next thought?  I'd hate to think that God knows exactly how and when I am going to make better decisions.  Why does God need to resist the proud?  What is the purpose if it is not to change the mind of the individual?

I think that the version of "God knows everything" is a comfort to many, and maybe an excuse for many..........an excuse to not live up to what God has entrusted to us.

Does the fact that God knows that we will fall short of His trust give us an excuse?
No, we are judged for it.  Don't fear the fact that you are judged, for what you have been entrusted with; The one who judges you, loves you, and will help you, in your time need.

[Psalm91:4]

It comforts me to know that He is the Potter....
With nail-scarred hands.

[eaglesway]

I believe people make a lot of confident statements about things they are not sure of, and think it is faith.

Faith is not "The assumption and the boldness to stand hard on things about which God has not revealed all".  The humility to say, well, we just can't know that because His ways are higher than my ways, is the wisdom of His way.

God establishes paradoxes to express thruths that go beyond carnal definitions and draw us further into His ways, and fellowship with Him.

"Who has known the mind of the Lord and who has been His counselor?"

I believe God is omniscient, but do I know that He always uses His omniscience? Not really.

Can God limit Himself for His own pleasure and purpose? I think so, but can I make a confident statement about that?

Would be presumptious because I don't have all the information. His ways are higher than mine. :o)

He created us for what, Fellowship? How could you have fellowship with something you utterly control in every thought and deed?

Superman has x ray vision but does he look through every dress and every bedroom door?

The idea that God could build a wall around us that He can look through if He wants but doesnt unless we need Him to, is perfectly logical to me, because God is teaching us through experience, but He is also fellowshipping with us through the process, and I dont believe we are automatons.

And God saw that it was good? Why see that it was good. God knows everything before it happens so He experiences nothing.

God had discourses with many people in the scriptural history of our dialogue with Him.

I feel that fellowship is as phony as all get out if God knows every word before it is spoken, every thought before it is conceived. I think, even if He can work that way, He chooses not to work that way- and our fellowship with Him involves, by the very demands of the meaning of words like fellowship and communion, more freedom and interaction with God than most people want to know they possess.

The best way to maximize the blessing of that freedom is to take His yoke upon us, and walk in the Way. The way of life. God is teaching us His ways. Why would He do that if in actual fact He is manipulating every thought and motive and deed?

I personally think that way of looking at things is intellectually and spiritually stifling, and makes a mockery of play acting out of most of the greatest scenes of discourse between God and man recorded in scripture.


But the truth is God does whatever he wants in whatever way he wants so our assumptions and doctrines about it are very limited in their ability to put Him in a box we can own by definition

[ian]

But the truth is God does whatever he wants in whatever way he wants so our assumptions and doctrines about it are very limited in their ability to put Him in a box we can own by definition

I agree, but I believe He made creation precisely the way He wanted it. The idea of making changes along the way doesn't seem like a reasonable perspective. I would say He did* what He wanted and it's playing out in what we call time. I would say our* perspective of fellowship is phony/incomplete. etc etc...

[Caffus]

This is not an essential doctrine to belief in UR.

I agree.  It is a doctrine that comes up a lot when discussing UR, ET, and annihilation.

ET and annihilation must choose between who is responsible for the ultimate end of mankind.  That is why the free will discussion comes up, it is either God or man.

The UR believer knows that God is sovereign and the ultimate end of each individual was purposed before the foundation of the world,  It is inescapable.  I'm mainly talking about the present heaven and earth when it comes to free will.

But I do believe it is an important one.  I would believe in limited will..by my own understanding.  But I believe that I am not listening to the Spirit, while accepting that.

All things are of God, including our growing in understanding, at present we have time.

:)

As when I believe He has total and complete control of all creation I am more at peace and feel a greater awe for our Father.  He is to incredible for the human mind to fully understand or describe.  :cloud9:

God has limited himself to us, He will not control our affairs.  God has given us responsibility, and He will not do our responsibility for us, there are no excuses........only forgiveness.  When we are forgiven for not living up to our responsibility, we stand anew, to carry on with and in our responsibility.  We will "stand anew" many times in our lifespan, for that I am exceedingly thankful.

Just talking Caffus, I appreciate you putting up with me.

ed

Ed that's what Im here for Christian fellowship and learning from each other. :friendstu: I cant say I know on this issue...but I do believe God has ultimate control and has controlled things in detail in the Bible....like Christs death. So I do know there are times He totally takes control of situations to bring about His plan. Sometimes, it is necessary

[eaglesway]

But the truth is God does whatever he wants in whatever way he wants so our assumptions and doctrines about it are very limited in their ability to put Him in a box we can own by definition

I agree, but I believe He made creation precisely the way He wanted it. The idea of making changes along the way doesn't seem like a reasonable perspective. I would say He did* what He wanted and it's playing out in what we call time. I would say our* perspective of fellowship is phony/incomplete. etc etc...

I agree, and what I was trying to say about phony fellowship, etc. was a hypthetical view from my personal viewpoint of a paradigm where God controls  our actions, reactions, thoughts and motivations to the minutest detail, as some believe. I am not critisizing them as phony, etc at all. Just defining the conclusions that result from that paradigm from my own perspective.

For instance, speaking again hypothetically- just because someone thinks God is producinf everything they do or think- doesnt mean He is.

What is, is, despite anyones definitons, including mine :o)

[ian]

Gotcha. But I do think we are all exposed to God. Moreover, if He knows our future, we are powerless against it. Where then is the will?

[CHB]

Just my two cents, but I believe God had it all planned out before he even created mankind or anything else. I believe things are being played out exactly as God wants it to no matter what it is, every little detail. If this was not so then there would be room for error because man makes mistakes and he was suppose to make mistakes so he could learn. I think "learning" is the main purpose of our mistakes, troubles, and trials. I also believe we cannot learn all by ourselves, our wills or whatever you want to call it. God even provides us with our mistakes, I sure didn't choose any of them.  :happygrin:

When you really think about it, all of these paths, roads leads back to the main source, God. We could not think, choose, work, you name it without God giving us the ability to do so. Are we robots, no, we have feelings, but even that is controlled by God. We have been given the ability to think, feel, see, hear, love but did we acquire these abilities on our own? NO. Any ability we have God gave it to us. We had no say or choice as far as of our own will to do anything at all, at least that is what Jesus said. The hardest thing for man to do it accept the fact that "of our own selves we can do nothing". This was meant to be also, so we could learn we need God.

Just the way I understand this.  :Peace2:

CHB

[Tom]

"out of Him and through Him and into Him is all" (Romans 11:36)

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Tom]

"in Him in Whom our lot was cast also, being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will" (Ephesians 1:11)

[lastpost]

Each has their own interpretation of Universal Salvation and God's Will in this matter, and how man functions in the whole scheme of things, whether he has any say in the matter, a little say in the matter or no say whatsoever even in the smallest way concerning his actions.

Many understand that God has ordained that all shall be healed, restored, made whole. I believe that He has willed this, it will happen, He has ensured it with the birth, life, sublime Sacrifice, and reappearance in accordance with the scriptures of Jesus Christ. The Spirit brings challenges, tests, temptations and experiences before us - but how we face them is not preordained except the final result. We may try many times to overcome a temptation but only after the thousandth time do we success never to fail again.

According to my understanding, around us all is influence of varying degrees - influence either by fallen spirits, evil in intent, or influence by those sent forth to minister to the heirs of salvation. We can choose who to listen to - it is how we learn.

I would like to pass on my opinion, if I may, or rather that which has become my opinion, as we are all influenced for good or for ill - influenced in what choices we shall make. 

I believe that in the path in front, that which lies beyond the so-called grave, that the time must come when we, each one, must face Reality, must go back over the past and read the record of our lives. I am saying my opinion out of love for I have no other reason to say it.

When we stand before Truth, when we are shown the mighty provision round us to rise to higher things, when we see the messengers, the angels, and the power they supply, then we may have to face the fact that we turned from those who were of God, and threw in our lot with those who were arraigned against the Christ.

In that day if such a condition is our own, we will, perhaps for the first time, understand the pangs of anguish. Self condemnation will flay us like a whip with a thousand thongs, and more than that. In the measure that that which we did, that which we thought, that which we failed to build, affected others, in that measure so we must go through with thoroughness and minute detail everything that was amiss, everything that veered even in the slightest from the commandment of the Master to love our neighbour as ourselves.

I personally believe that we must witness with feeling those whom we injured because we turned from the steep hill and chose the valley of self-indulgence; turned from the Cross; turned from the sorrow; turned from pain; for we knew, indeed we knew the path that Christ took Himself; we knew the loneliness, the persecution, and that which we name the Crucifixion, and we cannot say within ourselves: 'I was ignorant of life as it is.' We certainly cannot say such a thing for did we not claim the God Who is Sacrificial Love for ourselves? The Saviour Christ spilt His Blood for us that we might be free from sin - yet we cannot ignore the law as He laid down as the most important commandments upon which all the law and prophets rest.

Yet, thankfully, I truly believe we have much we can do, and the opportunity comes each minute, by provision of a merciful God. It is never too late for anyone to come to the feet of the Christ - never too late; I believe: 'what a man sows that must he reap.' No one can learn my lessons for me, no, not even the One Who loves me best, Who has fought for me, striven for me and everyone over time.

God stands by the 'sinner', by the one who turns to that which we name evil - Christ and His messengers stand by such a one. They are waiting to help, waiting to lift, waiting to guide; but they cannot until the individual wants his Christ; the power of the Lord God of all is limited according to man's desire. Yet within us, however weak we may seem to ourselves, however bound, however restricted, within us is God - power, courage, endurance.

As a child in faith, in trust, I turn to the Saviour and ask Him to help me to be that which I long to be for His sweet sake, for the sake of that which is within, and for the sake of humanity as a whole, which, as yet, knows not God and wants not that which the Father can supply. Within us is wisdom, within us is purity, within us is a capacity for sacrifice hitherto undreamt of by ourselves. The world may seem to hold, but with Christ we are more than conquerors. We have that strength which we draw from Him.

But, in my own opinion, the only way to provide a fitting temple for the Holy Spirit within is by work. First by work. Faith is glorious, but faith without effort is as the sunshine behind the clouds. Work - that form which is service - our opportunities are not limited, we are not bound by much; our responsibilities do not forbid us taking up the work that we fain would do. God has provided a way. We can work with our thoughts. We can create power by the Grace of God, spiritual power, as we go about our daily task, as we pass among those in the busy streets, as we take our way to purchase that which is necessary for the nourishment of the body; in our offices, in our homes we can create power, God power, by the tender wish to help another, by the sending out of healing thoughts, by compassion, by pity, by giving a portion of that which we have.

We can be missionaries of the Most High even though we may, by sickness, be fettered to our bed, for within us, doubt not, within us is God; and we are gifted by Him with abilities and resources we have not yet found. But the only way to find holiness is by dedication, by the consecration of the temple so that the Holiness within may have freedom, may have the power to express itself, through the physical, and to inspire others to do likewise.

One day each child of God must be of that perfection. One day we must represent holiness - that fragment of Divinity which we represent - and not only we ourselves, but every soul must return to perfection. But the way is by service, by giving out of ourselves to others, by lifting the sorrowful, by going to the bonded and telling them the good news...'Brother, sister, arise! Within you is God. Arise, and take the blessing of the Christ.' What we have is dead if it is for ourselves alone - it must be made universally available to come alive.

That is my opinion on how we interact with God, with His preordained result of the grand consummation, of His Will that ensures that each and every one of His children know the fullness of life in all its aspects, that nothing is hidden from them because they know the whole range. And the Way is the Way of Jesus the Christ.

This is just my own opinion.

Peace in Christ