water baptism

[Abigail]

I was baptized as a baby and as an adult. In my life I've heard several explanations on water baptism. Though I had a lot of joy in my heart when I was baptized (as an adult, I don't remember the first baptism  :winkgrin:), I feel like it has never fully made sense to me. That is, I never really knew in my heart what it meant. Somehow, I'm not very sensitive to 'outward', physical symbols, their meaning doesn't sink in.

Recently I have been wondering about water baptism - Paul speaks so little about it and doesn't seem to think it's a major thing. I've heard it explained he is actually talking about a spiritual baptism into the body, by the Spirit. And that water baptism was merely a Jewish thing, and only initially was used for heathen becoming christians. I'd love to know your thoughts on it. I know it's a much fighted over subject, I'm not seeking lots of  :flamebreath: and :punish:, just some clarification if anyone has found something from Christ in this subject.

[Seth]

According to Peter:

1 Peter 3:21
Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience-- through the resurrection of Jesus Christ

Water baptism is a good figure, or symbol, but because it is an outward and flesh-based work, it cannot save (sozo-heal) us from sin. The resurrection of Jesus Christ is the baptism to which Peter refers to having saving power, the water of life.

[jabcat]

I too think it's symbolic.  An outward sign of what's happened/happening internally, an act of obedience if one has the opportunity.  The thief on the cross had no such opportunity.

[jabcat]

My dear aunt (a sincere, Godly woman) belonged to a denomination that taught you had to be water baptized to be saved - it was a necessary/vital part of the process.

I heard something once that resonated about that.  It said that some denominations are built on the scripture that says repent and be baptized for the remission of your sins.  I personally haven't looked it up, but what I heard further said, the scripture is actually accurately translated as because of the remission of your sins. 

[Tom]

I was told that I was baptized when I was an infant in the Roman Catholic Church, but years later, when I tried the Protestant Church for awhile, I chose to be baptized again by full immersion which the Catholics didn't do when I was a kid. I don't know about now. That wasn't the reason though. I just thought a believer should make the decision instead of having it done for you when you're too young to know what's going on. Now I don't think water baptism is necessary at all because I think our baptism is by spirit. When I hung out with some charismatic folks for a while, they convinced me there were two baptisms, but I know better now. I think water baptism is simply a ritual that we read was performed by John the baptist for the Jewish people when he was heralding the coming kingdom of the heavens. I don't think any rituals are necessary for the ecclesia even though orthodox theology seems to thrive on them.

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[Abigail]

I see waterbaptism as a symbol too. I've never believed it is required for salvation or such a thing, because it's outward, physical. Yet I wonder whether water baptism should have a place within christianity at all, or did God not mean it for us gentiles anymore.
I briefly scanned the article, Tom, thank you. I'm not sure I agree with everything in it though (I mean the background / theology)

[Tom]

"In grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present, not of works, lest anyone should be boasting." (Ephesians 2:8,9)

[rosered]

 
  Hi Abigail

I know  so many struggle to understand it fully and  I sure do not , but keep learning   as God wills us all to  learn of Him

  Good answers       brothers .....
water baptism   

I agree also its symbolic ,
8 souls saved by water  in the ark 
the rest all died  by  baptism of water , in my opinion
  being the 8 ,  meaning new beginnings   , we Know Christ come though the ark  of the covenant  spiritually speaking .

   the Old testifies    of  being saved by water  , circumcision     making us clean in a temporary   state  still being flesh and blood ..being sons of  men

  the new by fire   this time     it would be the power of the Holy Spirit to change   us     to spiritual beings and making us sons of God though Jesus Christ [Luke12;49]   the Fire & the Holy Spirit     change .

  This is only my view    and   I am sure there is more that can share  , but all   I really know about it .
  I found this  very   helpful     
baptio
to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)

to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one's self, bathe

to overwhelm

"Note on Baptism in Ac. Baptism in water (such as John's) is distinguished from baptism with the Holy Spirit (i. 5, etc.).

Those who receive the latter, however, may also be baptized in water (cf. xi. 16 with x. 47); and there is one example of people who had previously received John's baptism receiving Christian baptism as a preliminary to receiving the Spirit (xix. 3 ff.). John's was a baptism of repentance (xiii. 24; xix. 4), as was also Christian baptism (ii. 38), but as John's pointed forward to Jesus (xix. 4)

, it became obsolete when He came.

Christian baptism followed faith in the Lord Jesus (xvi. 31 ff.); it was associated with His name (ii. 38; viii. 16, etc.), which was invoked by the person baptized (xxii. 16); it signified the remission (ii. 38) or washing away of sins (xxii. 16); sometimes it preceded (ii. 38; viii. 15 ff.; xix. 5), sometimes followed (x. 47 f.) the receiving of the Spirit." (F. F. Bruce. The Acts of the Apostles [Greek Text Commentary], London: Tyndale, 1952, p. 98, n. 1.)


This word should not be confused with baptô (911).


The clearest example that shows the meaning of baptizo is a text from the Greek poet and physician Nicander

, who lived about 200 B.C.

It is a recipe for making pickles and is helpful because it uses both words.


Nicander says that in order to make a pickle, the vegetable should first be 'dipped' (baptô) into boiling water and then 'baptised' (baptizô) in the vinegar solution.

Both verbs concern the immersing of vegetables in a solution.


But the first is temporary.    The second, the act of baptising the vegetable, produces a permanent change.

[joeteekay]

baptism:
First the physical, then the spiritual:
Act_1:5  For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Act_2:38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act_8:36  And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
Act_10:47  Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Act_10:48  And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Act_11:16  Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Act_22:16  And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

[Dandelion]

Ephesians 4 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

4 Call upon you, then, do I -- the prisoner of the Lord -- to walk worthily of the calling with which ye were called,
2 with all lowliness and meekness, with long-suffering, forbearing one another in love,
3 being diligent to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of the peace;
4 one body and one Spirit, according as also ye were called in one hope of your calling;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism
6 one God and Father of all, who [is] over all, and through all, and in you all,
7 and to each one of you was given the grace, according to the measure of the gift of Christ,

I agree with joeteekay. I believe God knows that we live in both the realm of the spirit and the flesh, and that we need some outward signs. Call me old fashioned, but to me, it seemed important to Jesus, so I hold that they are important in our lives, as well.

I personally think God wanted us to be gathered into a community of fellow believers, to acknowledge and welcome us, into the Body of Christ, on a physical level, which helps get us the support and love, to continue on a spiritual one. We need to remind one another and help one another through the journey, and Baptism, I believe, was meant to be one of the first steps.

Young's Literal Translation
'for where there are two or three gathered together -- to my name, there am I in the midst of them.'  Matthew 18:20

:2c:

[CHB]

Hi,

I was baptized twice but neither one of them was necessary for salvation. When Jesus was baptized I was baptized this is the one that really counts.
(Rom. 6:1-6)
CHB

[rosered]

Wow  great answers everyone !!   

  I  am blessed to even be  among  the faithful saints of God !

   in the Spirit and those still  in the flesh as well .


  I   have considered    this   and decided to share it here  today ,  God willing

  What if it  for our own  benefit   ?   I mean   to begin to   walk in the   faith  of the Holy Spirit  as acknowledging   Gods presence in your life By the name of Jesus Christ . there is no name under heaven by which you must be saved   ...

  What I  mean  , is how many times did Jesus say     ,   for your sakes   was this   or that given ?


I  dont know if it benefits the Kingdom of God any more or less    so   , I would say it  may be   as,'' on earth as it is in heaven'''  ..rejoicing  :HeartThrob:

  or   maybe it does show the world you are   proclaiming his name    outwardly .


      and the angels rejoice over one sinner who repents Luke 15 ...9"When she has found it, she calls together her friends and neighbors, saying,

'Rejoice with me, for I have found the coin which I had lost!'

10"In the same way, I tell you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents."

[eaglesway]

In my opinion baptism is symbolic, but it is also more than symbolic.

All you have to do is read all the verses about it and you will find that there is an effect that is receved by the baptized.

The reason (I think) people are reluctant to accept this is that the teaching of baptismal salvation has caused people to reject baptismal healing and deliverance.

There is a definite healing effect in baptism. Even as the great Assyrian commader, Naham, could not accept that dunking 7 times in the Jordan at the commad of the man of God could heal His leprosy, so also the carnal mind cannot accept that baptism could have any genune effect in the soul of man- but it does.

The Exodus of Israel was a forward look at our salvation.

1)Blood of a firstborn spotless lamb upon the doorpost- death angel passes over.

When we believe the blood is applied, eternal life is ours, sins are forgiven.

2) Pass through the Red Sea

The strong man is buried- Paul called it "faith in the operation of God" in Colossians. That carnal mind receives a blow when we yield in obedient faith to the command of Jesus to be baptized. It is not about eternal life or the forgiveness of sins, it is about "the answer of a clear conscience" and the "removal of the body of the ins of the flesh, buried with Him in baptism" and it is a very real spiritual operation within the one upon whom it is ministered in faith.

There is no other reason why the Lord and the apostles made it such a pointof it in the ministering of the gospel, and the fact that the church has "outgrown it" is just a symptom of their having "outgrown" the word of God, and imo, one of the reasons the power God is lacking in evangelism and in the assemblies.

3) Led by the cloud and pillar of fire.

You shall receive power after the Holy Spirit has come upon you and you shall be witnesses unto me.

After bearing witness on that first day, Peter was asked, by those who had been pierced by the testimony, "What shall we do?"

37 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?" 38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself." 40 And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, "[am]Be saved from this perverse generation!" 41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.

People have rejected the truth about baptism because of ET theology and because it has been taught that "if you arent baptized you arent saved" and thus, "if you arent saved you are going to hell"

But the gospel was never about this. Those verses go on. "Be delivered from this perverse generation".

That is what baptism is for. A circumscision. A separation. Like the ring that seals the wedding- it is not the union, it is the testimony to the universe that the marriage has been covenanted, "the answer of a clear conscience".

Could the first witness of the gospel been in error or can it be taken lightly? Or was Peter overflowing with the Spirit on that day and speaking the very words of God. This is the gospel as it was given, once and for all.

Repent (blood on the door post)

Be baptized (Red Sea)

And you shall receive the promise of the Holy Spirit(cloud and pillar of fire)

These three bear witness in one, the blood the water and the spirit. They are about salvation from Adam, the carnal nature, the appolumi of unbelief and separation of God, and becoming a new creation in Christ, and they are all important and effectual.

:2c:

[Dandelion]

 :iagree:

Yes, a geniune effect on the soul....that too, eaglesway....agreed.

[Joanna]

Christening/baptising babies in the Roman Catholic, Anglican and Methodist churches is in a sense a parallel to a service of dedication of infants in other churches. Baptism or dedication of infants is when parents decide to bring their children up in the Christian faith. Anglicans and Methodists have a confirmation service instead of full immersion older child/adult baptism to declare their faith but anyone can have full immersion baptism if they choose. I was baptised as a baby and confirmed in the Anglican church. I haven't had full immersion baptism. If I was to go to Israel in my lifetime I'd like to be baptised in the Jordan because that's where Jesus was baptised. I sometimes wonder if full immersion baptism would deepen my faith.

[rosered]

 

  Hi John and do agree with much you have shared

  My only    wonder is , I believe everyone  born    in the flesh     is baptized in water   being the watery grave     right out of the womb   , symbolically speaking

  in the  sense   they are born in death  , we experience this until we become Christ conscious.  awakened out of the sleep of    death  in old Adam , mankind . and that is the gift of God  given by faith in His Son Jesus Christ the Lamb of God ...

  When you acknowledge   a power  much  higher in ways and thoughts than your own   and a need for being saved   out the world

   We are overcoming the world ,  Amen ?    All things pertaining to flesh and blood   that is bound to this world only .

Our baptism    in His death is to  be quickened by the Spirit and Life   in Jesus Christ

All that come before Him were robber and thieves  ,criminals    breakers of the Law of God  ...     and  symbolically  speaking     He died with two thieves on the Cross  and Him in the midst   [  the middle wall ]   of separation       ... 
  showing the old man of sin as      the flesh  being all mouths must be  stopped        , there was silence , Jesus said to forgive them     them  criminals /thieves on the cross  between the two     , one was judged   as righteous    enough to enter Gods kingdom       , the other was not

we are all criminals according the flesh and blood   ,  sin is in the flesh     and the   carnal mind is an enmity against the Spirit and LIFE

   32 There were also two criminals led out with Jesus to be ·put to death [executed]. 33 When they came to a place called the Skull, the soldiers crucified Jesus and the criminals—one on his right and the other on his left. 34 Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, because they don't know what they are doing."

The soldiers threw lots [C similar to dice] to decide who would get his clothes [Ps. 22:18]. 35 The people stood there watching. And the leaders ·made fun of [sneered at; mocked] Jesus, saying, "He saved others. Let him save himself if he is ·God's Chosen One, the Christ [or God's Messiah, the Chosen One]."

36 The soldiers also ·made fun of [mocked] him, coming to Jesus and offering him some ·vinegar [sour wine]. 37 They said, "If you are the king of the Jews, save yourself!" 38 ·At the top of the cross these words were written [L Above him there was also an inscription]: this is the king of the jews.

39 One of the criminals ·on a cross [L who was hanging there] began to ·shout insults at [slander; blaspheme] Jesus: "Aren't you the ·Christ [Messiah]? Then save yourself and us."

40 But the other criminal ·stopped [rebuked] him and said, "·You should [L Don't you...?] fear God! You are getting the same punishment he is.

41 We are punished justly, getting what we deserve for what we did. But this man has done nothing wrong." 42 Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

43 Jesus said to him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise [C heaven or the presence of God]."

I am also a sinner saved by grace    , as we  all are      ,   if we are like the one   thief  than  our  sentence is just       

  But if we are as the   other sinner   , dividing between the sheep and goats        we  will be with Him  in paradise   

  I see the symbolism as    true to the WORD        in many places


   The simplicity in Christ amazes  me  we  ALL can be found on one side   or  the other,  and Jesus is always in our midst       


Gods Holy Spirit is helping us  all out so much right now   , I am in awe of Him       , really  its a  beautiful thing  :HeartThrob:







       

[rosered]

I found this in 2008   
Its about our whole mortal lives   here and now    and  being born again of  Holy  Spirit  and fire  and being made new    ,     coming out of the watery graves    of death
and drinking the waters of LIFE freely ...  a the cross      where we first see the LIGHT !!the LOVE OF GODS CONSUMING FIRE   ,  take up our cross and follow Jesus     Home .  back to the Father ...



lol Brother its about Faith ,
without faith it is impossible to please  God ..

  to the faithful   the  Cross is the very powers that be ..
  but to the faithless  ,  its empty  they have no hope
  its the few that God has given this faith and hope to that will
  make a difference  here and now , to them  that it dont ?
  they will see one Day ..    God bless
lots of Thomases /double minded   and blinded I am certain ...

2Cr 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which [vail] is done away in Christ.

  Jam 1:8 A double minded man [is] unstable in all his ways.


Jam 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse [your] hands, [ye] sinners; and purify [your] hearts, [ye] double minded

Jhn 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas/ "twins "a twin " to me doubleminded ] , Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust [it] into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.   


Rom 15:6 That ye may with one mind [and] one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
to the pure all things are pure .. :)

Tts 1:15 Unto the pure all things [are] pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving [is] nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. pure  katharos
1) clean, pure

a) physically

1) purified by fire :flamebreath:

2) in a similitude, like a vine cleansed by pruning and so fitted to bear fruit

b) in a levitical sense

1) clean, the use of which is not forbidden, imparts no uncleanness

c) ethically

1) free from corrupt desire, from sin and guilt

2) free from every admixture of what is false, sincere genuine

3) blameless, innocent

4) unstained with the guilt of anything


its a Big bump in the road to get from there to here ...
or here to there   hummm ..
 
peace rose


now after these many years    6   to 7 years later   GOD HAS ABUNDANTLY    given more and more of    His Holy Spirit and life    to be in us
  I can see the minds between the two thieves       one was pure      and  the other defiled   being  carnal       , and  we are both /double minded     

    and than one or the other
at all times      no wonder       we get confused       ,and I have been so confused and uncertain   at times !   the flesh counts for nothing    , its full of sin and burned in the  fires of Gods consuming Light      in   went down in  death  never to be seen again ,hades the unseen .. and the new man  raised up in faith       


I see  that until  you take it    so personally   within your very core of being    , it will always be about  someone else  or something    else and   some other time or some other place     .

    the KINGDOM OF GOD  VERY  IS NEAR US ALL    , We are so blessed      for Him to be in our presence and with Him !!!   :HeartThrob:

[sheila]

re;  it will always be about someone else,some other time..

  Amos.9;13  the days coming with the appearance of the Messiah prophesied here......

   WHEN THE REAPER WILL BE OVERTAKEN BY THE PLOWMAN..........

.......AND THE PLANTER BY THE ONE TREADING GRAPES.

    You say..it is yet..four months until harvest.....

[sheila]

....when the [percieved] future comes round behind us.

[Abigail]

There is no other reason why the Lord and the apostles made it such a pointof it in the ministering of the gospel

That is what stuck me, that Paul hardly teaches it. He even says in 1 Cor. 1:17 'For Christ sent me out not to baptize but to evangelize by preaching the glad tidings...' So, if water baptism is an important part of the mission, why is he saying this?

And when he speaks about baptism in other places, it's like he's not necessarily speaking about water baptism. Like Romans 6:3-4
'Are you ignorant of the fact that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? We were buried therefore with Him by the baptism into death, so that jus as Christ was raised from the dead by the glorious power of the Father, so we too might habitually live and behave in newness of life.'

[lastpost]

I do not think anybody is wrong, when pure truth is re-interpreted by man it is tinged with his own personality even in the smallest way - God has chosen to include and entrust His children with work on His Plan. It seems to me to be the same as Holy Communion [the Bread and Wine]. The physical act (I personally believe) produces a definite Divine blessing to the mind and soul direct from Christ - however, knowing Christ, loving Christ, following Christ and Christ being the Saviour, is not dependent upon the act itself, and nobody can be forced into receiving a blessing.

[sheila]

everything is cleansed by water or fire or blood in the the temple arrangement. Consider earth cleansed by deluge of water in Noah's

day.....and this world stored up for fire.. Water baptism..or fire baptism...bad for the flesh/good for the spirit.

   God has His water and fire cleansing process..and satan has his version.[floods from dragon's mouth cast out

  after the woman..and satan himself cause fire to come down out of heaven]

   remember...the Egyptians horses are but flesh[that pursued Israel to the red sea] but God's horses are spirit.

   the red sea is like  blood[the life is in the blood/and every living thing in the sea died/become like the blood of a dead man]

your brothers blood is crying out from the earth..the earth will

  disclose the blood shed upon her.  Blood on the bare rock...and the way of a serpent on a rock.

   when He lays the foundations of the earth bare..the prince of this world is judged that his works are wicked...for

the Lamb slain before the foundation of this world.



   flesh and blood can not inherit/he who loses his life for the sake of the kingdom of Heaven.  forfeiting our fleshly life

  in this earth for that which is better[go sell all your possessions.and give gifts to the poor.then come follow me] said to

the rich man in this  earth.........parable of the rich man and Lazurus..making yourself poor as Jesus/though He is the

rightful heir[not prince of this world]   rich man..many things laid up in this world[for his flesh] and Lazarus/resurrection

from the dead=made poor in this world..but rich towards God.  The great gulf which no man can cross[see that you

tell no man/flesh and blood did not reveal this to you..but the Father in Heaven]   counting it all as loss/dross and

picking up your cross.

   

[eaglesway]

There is no other reason why the Lord and the apostles made it such a pointof it in the ministering of the gospel

That is what stuck me, that Paul hardly teaches it. He even says in 1 Cor. 1:17 'For Christ sent me out not to baptize but to evangelize by preaching the glad tidings...' So, if water baptism is an important part of the mission, why is he saying this?

And when he speaks about baptism in other places, it's like he's not necessarily speaking about water baptism. Like Romans 6:3-4
'Are you ignorant of the fact that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? We were buried therefore with Him by the baptism into death, so that jus as Christ was raised from the dead by the glorious power of the Father, so we too might habitually live and behave in newness of life.'

Actually Paul and Peter both spoke about baptism in terms that are deeper than symbolic alone. Why did Paul re-baptize the disciples of John, in Acts? Why did Jesus command them to baptize disciples in His name?

In my opinion Romans 6 is speaking of baptism in water. The act is not what renders the effect, "not in the washing away of the sins of the flesh but in the answer of a clear conscience to God".

God does nothing for nothing.  All I am saying is that there is a benefit of grace in baptsm and that is why the Lord commanded it- not as an empty symbol or ritual alone- although it is symbolic as well- the symbolism is related to the actual benefit the act of obedience and faith accesses.

1 Peter 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Romans 6:4 should be looked at in context with the rest of Paul's writing on baptism

Colossians 2:12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

If viewed topically with all the verses on baptism, then Romans 6:4 certainly appears to be about baptism itself, as is Colossians- but again, not in performing the act as law to be saved from hell. Rather the obedience of faith in His word renders the appropriate grace promised by the word, a measure of healing, a witness, a point of contact for a faithful action yielding a scripturally prescribed effect- consistent in both the teaching and the practice of the Lord and His apostles.

[sdileo]

I look at my baptism as the day I gave myself to the Lord. I was sick of the way my life was going and repented and was baptized.

However, my assurance comes from Christ giving Himself for me.

Steve

[rosered]

   Good stuff  , Guys

    For me ,  the ONE   true spiritual  meaning  of  baptism is   taking ahold of your Cross   . lifting it up [Jesus Christ ] and following  His example   from birth to death  and endless Life ..Jesus referred to His own baptism as the CROSS [Luke 12; 47-52]

   The first one by John the baptist was the fulfill all righteousness  according to the law of mankind  , being every jot and tittle  that no man  could keep , as sin in mans flesh .....

This was God the Father bearing witness   to JESUS CHRIST IN THE EARTH   And see a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.  .....  for me this is how all the sons of Glory will come though Him and always have  in secret , but made the open show of it     by bearing  the CROSS ,,   and this witness  in the earth   image bearing witness  as son of man [Ezekiel] law and prophets 
 
The true baptism was   WITNESS IN THE  HEAVEN [making one way   .. the WAY ] Life giving Spirit from Heaven   HEAR what the   ONE  TRUE Spirit of  GOD  is saying
  As the  Word  Sword of the Spirit divides      what is spirit is Spirit and what is flesh is flesh     and both are judged accordingly BY THE WORD  , by  truth and grace or by   fire    , this fire as being   symbolic of  trials and tribulations in the flesh to   season   us and making the sons of God  be birthed  by the chastening fires   and tribulations as birthing    and  appear from the    dead earth   ,
  our bodies  of mortal    existence   , where Jesus said    while being  in flesh and blood , why do you call me  good , there is none good but God    , testifying     as a witness     to His fathers power and glory in the earth , his own body   ,  just as we should also         bear witness in the heavens    being ONE IN HIM

Jesus was showing us how much the carnal minds of mankind    war against the True Spirit of God that was in Him doing the works of the Father and speaking His words   , by all His  own adversarial    enemies   wanting to put him to death and silence   so they could still rule and reign as kings of the earth   , kill and steal   and lie and cheat and do every evil under the sun .  Lacking the Love of God in them    and certainly rejecting the   sonship   message   though Jesus Christ
showing a form of godliness but denying the very POWER    that gives true   and endless Life .



John 5:37 And the Father himself, which has sent me, has borne witness of me. ...
John 12:28-30 Father, glorify your name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, ...
Revelation 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and ...

Baptism and the Cross are meaning the  same thing in my opinion 

Baptized in His death   romans 6


2May it never be! How shall we who died to sin[error  , missing the mark of the higher calling come up here with me in Spirit and truth AND LIVE ]   sin is remaining in death  to me ] ,      still live in it?

3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?  this is the same Cross of Jesus Christ   we are to take up .. let the dead bury the dead , you follow ME ...



4  Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

Walking in the Spirit and Life in Christ and   arriving by the walk in the Spirit   to the gates of the city       of the CITY OF THE LIVING GOD   in Mount Zion     the HOLY assemblies     the heavenly Jerusalem       and mother of us all   ,  WISDOM   is justified of her children         though birthing the sons of glory   in the earth as it is in heaven as ONE   HOLY  TEMPLE AND PLACE of true peace and joy and   glory in the Lord our God the Father  ...........

Heb12 2 1And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, "I AM FULL OF FEAR and trembling."

22But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,...    THE GOD OF THE LIVING   and not the dead ...


A  higher  Spiritual  life and education   and knowledge   with understanding     and  have overcome the world by the Christ in you the hope of glory ...  the world has nothing in HIM ,,,,     the flesh profits nothing    ..

BY  the anointed seed deposited   of God the FATHER placed in your  dark and empty heart   to grow in truth and grace by the increase of Gods power to   Light the inward path and   extend outwardly to the world     as Christ is ALIVE and in you    and all gathered in to the heavenly    realm of Gods HOLY   kingdom for ever more     ...
They   are free from the flesh and consider your own flesh  already dead       by faith like Abraham    did and we have His witness

   body as good as dead  Abraham Receives the Promise
...18In hope against hope he believed, so that he might become a father of many nations according to that which had been spoken, "SO SHALL YOUR DESCENDANTS BE." 19Without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah's womb; 20yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God,...

The Faith of Abraham
...11By faith even Sarah herself received ability to conceive, even beyond the proper time of life, since she considered Him faithful who had promised. 12Therefore there was born even of one man, and him as good as dead at that, as many descendants AS THE STARS OF HEAVEN IN NUMBER, AND INNUMERABLE AS THE SAND WHICH IS BY THE SEASHORE. 13All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.


They saw though the  EYES OF THE  SPIRIT of   knowing and understanding    Gods will by faith in God    !!!   
Issac=  he shall laugh     , joy in the morning      the LIGHT HAS COME  , RISE AND SHINE    the new DAY IS HERE AND WITH US


" 28and you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born According to the Spirit, so it is now also....


Just wow ...