Dead Sea Scrolls

[GerWat]

here's a dandy from: http://www.bethinking.org/bible/bible-scandals/7-eternal-torment:
"...from one of the Dead Sea Scrolls:

The judgment of all who walk in such ways will be multiple afflictions at the hand of all the angels of perdition, everlasting damnation in the wrath of God's furious vengeance, never-ending terror and reproach for all eternity, with a shameful extinction in the fire of Hell's outer darkness. For all their eras, generation by generation, they will know doleful sorrow, bitter evil and dark happenstance, until their utter destruction with neither remnant nor rescue." [Rule of the Community 4.12-14.]

Anyone know the DSS well enough to enlighten me on this one?
Jerry

[eaglesway]

http://tentmaker.org/forum/faqs-regarding-ur/tt-instead-of-et/msg186703/#msg186703

[Tom]

I disagree with that guy's interpretation of scripture which is easily summed up by the last two words of his link. From what I remember, the Dead Sea scrolls basically reinforced belief in the Hebrew scriptures because they backed up most of the text, but the Hebrew scriptures did not have the revelation of universal reconciliation. That was revealed through Paul in the Greek scriptures in Colossians 1:20.

[eaglesway]

The site is seeking to invalidate the inspiration of NT scripture altogether by inferring that Jesus was not the word of God- Jesus was just some guy modifying what he had heard from a Jewish Rabbi.

Only the scriptures are sufficient to express what is in the law and prophets. It is my experience that both Jews and Christians will make things up and report dubious historical evidence as if it was fact to prove their theological agendas- which makes me understand why you are testing things out as you are.

But the sources you are going to have been very shaky on the last two :o)

Search the OT for a believe in hell by Moses and the prophets and you will get a better idea of things.

[Tom]

I think "sheol" of the Hebrew scriptures corresponds to "hades" of the Greek scriptures and is simply the unseen state of dead souls. I think the thing about Abe in a flame in hades in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus was just a case of Jesus using the false teachings of the Pharisees against them.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/TheGehennaOfFire.html

http://concordant.org/expohtml/HumanDestiny/lazarus2.html

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Hebrews 10 tells us the tabernacle of Moses is the pattern of heavenly things. If so, then it would behoove us to study the tabernacle, would it not?

The "wide gulf" between rich man and Lazarus, is the inner court realm of the tabernacle pattern. It's a breach area, between God in Holy of Holies (Abraham's bosom) and unsaved man in outer court (where the "rich" man is).

Fortunately, Christ is the man who stands in the breach/gap for us, in this dispensation as the Holy Ghost, ever living to make intercession for man. My  :2c: Blessings.....

[eaglesway]

Jesus was using the Pharisees own false theology against them is one theory, but there is no indication in the record that that is so. It is one assumption about this parable, which I think Jesus made purposely difficult to integrate into systematic theology, because it is a parable- it is meant to reveal mysteries hidden from the foundation of the world, "having eyes they see not, having ears they hear not".

IMO, Jesus was not teaching about the nature of the afterlife. He was speaking in parable about the judgement of men(outward) versus the judgment of God(inward), and the aionian consequences of seeking treasure on earth where moths corrupt(coverings decay) rust destroys(time erodes) and the thieves break in and steal(death takes away). In brief, the insubstantiality of earthly life and ambition and "stuff" versus the enduring quality of life for those God cares for.

He was also making a statement agaisnt the Sanhedrin, the ruling caste of Pharisees and Saducees, whose unbelief was so strong they would not believe "even if one came back from the dead".

It was a parable about inner values and godly mercy versus haughty indifference.

[GerWat]

From Tom, "the revelation of universal reconciliation because that was only revealed through Paul in the Greek scriptures."

Seriously?  I could swear I've seen references from the Gospels.

Here's a few from:http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/universalism-is-not-in-the-bible.htm
God has given His Son "authority over ALL flesh, to give eternal life to ALL whom He has given Him" (John 17:2). "The Father has given ALL things into the Son's hands" (John 3:35) and so "ALL flesh shall see the salvation of God" (Luke 3:6).  Because His love for His enemies is unchanging and "He is kind to the ungrateful and evil" (Luke 6:35).

Please explain your comment!

[Tom]

I hear ya. I edited my post, but I would say that Colossians 1:20 specifically says "reconcile all" and includes more than "all flesh" because I think spirit beings are included as evidenced by the words "those on the earth or those in the heavens." None of the verses you quoted spoke of "universal reconciliation."

"through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20)

I don't even use the phrase "universal salvation" because I think salvation applies to mankind. I realize the phrase "universal reconciliation" isn't in scripture, but I think it is the concept spoken of in Colossians 1:20. Even the salvation of all mankind doesn't include "those in the heavens." I think the salvation of all mankind means salvation from sin and death for us mortals. I think only living souls on earth are subject to death not spirit beings in "the heavens." So I think "universal reconciliation" goes beyond the salvation of all mankind or "all flesh" and includes the full scope of all creation. Just so we don't start gettin crazy quibblin about skeeters again, I'm referring to the eventual reconciliation of Satan and his messengers at the consummation of the eons when God will be all in all.