Qeustion. on Rev 22:14-15 about those Outside the city?

[Caffus]

Again, I'm a firm believer in UR. God chose to reveal it to me and so, I know there is always an answer. I just want to understand all I can, not only for myself but so I have good answers if I'm ever asked.
Rev 22: 14-15
Happy are those doing His commands that the authority shall be thiers unto the tree of life, and by the gates they may enter into the city ;15and without are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the whoremongers, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one who is loving and is doing a lie."
Now, I know we will all be changed and made new when eternity begins, but these verses are near the end of the Bible after hades and death are cast in the lake of fire and after the verse that says "Behold I make all things new"
Is the Bible just not in order or whats going on here?

[Seth]

I think he is talking about the new creature in Christ. The word "behold" means "look" as in look at this "bride" the tabernacle of God is with men. It is by that means that God will make all things new. For the sons of God will welcome all creation into their glorious liberty (Romans 8).

[Tom]

I think most folks assume Revelation is the end of the story just because somebody stuck it at the end of the Bible, but it's Paul who speaks of the consummation of the eons.

"through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20)

"Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all." (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

[Caffus]

Yes, I know Revaluation. doesn't necessarily mean its the end of the story or that it really belongs at the end of the Bible. However Rev. 21:4-5 It talks about wiping all our tears away and then says Behold I make all things new...which, I thought was supposed to mean when He makes all humans rightouse in Him. But then it goes on to talk about evil doers in Rev 21:8 and how thier part is in the lake of fire ect.  And in Rev 22 the sinners outside the city..this is all in Rev.

[Tom]

Revelation is not chronological, kind of like the thing with flashbacks in movies. And the fact that the lake of fire is still there tells you the end hasn't happened yet because the lake of fire is called the second death, and death, the last enemy, hasn't been abolished yet.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheUnveiling/TheUnveiling.htm

[rosered]

 


HI Caffus  it goes with Rev11  I believe 11 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

  what was sealed   and in Rev  22  is no longer sealed  so you can understand it and  all these things begin to      happen

  you  know by the Holy Spirit  witness   , hope this helps

[rosered]

Revelation is not chronological, kind of like the thing with flashbacks in movies. And the fact that the lake of fire is still there tells you the end hasn't happened yet because the lake of fire is called the second death, and death, the last enemy, hasn't been abolished yet.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheUnveiling/TheUnveiling.htm

  Yes   Tom  ,   It is not in any order , but is more like a KEY to me that   the Lamb unlocks  [given a   right  for us , to understand the    whole bible     the old and new     
  This   to me is the book of Life and the book of the dead/memorial  that   testifies of Jesus Christ

  the sure  mercies of David  unlocks no man open   rev 3 and Isaiah 22 ;22 21And I will clothe him with your tunic And tie your sash securely about him. I will entrust him with your authority, And he will become a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. 22"Then I will set the key of the house of David on his shoulder, When he opens no one will shut, When he shuts no one will open. 23"I will drive him like a peg in a firm place, And he will become a throne of glory to his father's house.


7"And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: He who is holy, who is true, who has the key of David, who opens and no one will shut, and who shuts and no one opens, says this: 8'I know your deeds. Behold, I have put before you an open door which no one can shut, because you have a little power, and have kept My word, and have not denied My name. 9Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie-- I will make them come and bow down at your feet, and make them know that I have loved you....


   They all fit together   and witness the same thing  for more of the information  though out the Word  of God  . .

[Seth]

Yes, I know Revaluation. doesn't necessarily mean its the end of the story or that it really belongs at the end of the Bible. However Rev. 21:4-5 It talks about wiping all our tears away and then says Behold I make all things new...which, I thought was supposed to mean when He makes all humans rightouse in Him. But then it goes on to talk about evil doers in Rev 21:8 and how thier part is in the lake of fire ect.  And in Rev 22 the sinners outside the city..this is all in Rev.

I think the context shows that the all things he makes new are those who have inherited that city. If I pick some apples and put them in a basket, and say "behold all the apples," I'm not talking about all the apples on the planet.

[rosered]

Yes Seth ,,, those who are given the right to enter   by the Lord  whom holds all the keys      :winkgrin:

   the keys of Hell  /hidden   unseen , and death and  gives  them to whomever He will and   the Key of David  as well   

  keys   to the  Kingdom   

since the keeper of the keys has the power to open  allow entry  and to shut or  keep out

metaph. in the NT to denote power and authority of various kinds

Spiritual   gifts to mankind


Matthew 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven

[Tom]

I think the ecclesia, the body of Christ, will have already been vivified and snatched away to meet Christ in the air because we'll be saved from indignation. (1 Thessalonians 4:17; Romans 5:9) I think Revelation was written to the Jewish people about the coming judgments of God and the fulfillment of their promised kingdom of the heavens on earth where some will be, but some will be excluded. The dead who aren't written in the scroll of life will be condemned at the great white throne and cast into the lake of fire which is the second death. (Revelation 20:14) I think that will happen after the thousand years of the next eon, (Revelation 20:5) but we don't how long the eon of the eons after that will last until the consummation when all on the earth and in the heavens will be reconciled to God through Christ's blood on the cross and God will be all in all.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheUnveiling/TheUnveiling.htm

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

[Caffus]

Ok, so Rev is not in order ok...I've heard that Behold I make all things new, means all...but I geuss it doesn't. All I know is all my tears wont be wiped away until were God is all in all. It hurts me to see evil, sin , people hurting, unbelieving ect.

[rosered]

Ok, so Rev is not in order ok...I've heard that Behold I make all things new, means all...but I geuss it doesn't. All I know is all my tears wont be wiped away until were God is all in all. It hurts me to see evil, sin , people hurting, unbelieving ect.

  Yes it does  hurt  ,

But your tears are not for nothing they do count !!
  you are sealed because it Grieves the Holy Spirit as well  :sigh:



  Ezekiel 9 3Then the glory of the God of Israel went up from the cherub on which it had been, to the threshold of the temple.

And He called to the man clothed in linen at whose loins was the writing case.

4The LORD said to him, "Go through the midst of the city, even through the midst of Jerusalem, and put a mark on the foreheads of the men who sigh and groan over all the abominations which are being committed in its midst." 5But to the others He said in my hearing, "Go through the city after him and strike; do not let your eye have pity and do not spare....

Jesus  weeps for Jerusalem
Luke 19:41-44English Standard Version (ESV)

Jesus Weeps over Jerusalem
41 And when he drew near and saw the city, he wept over it, 42 saying, Would that you, even you, had known on this day the things that make for peace!

But now they are hidden from your eyes.

43 For the days will come upon you, when your enemies will set up a barricade around you and surround you and hem you in on every side


44 and tear you down to the ground, you and your children within you. And they will not leave one stone upon another in you, because you did not know the time of your visitation.

[Caffus]

Yes, Rose
But even though, it hurts now. We have peace and joy in the hope that in His time He will make ALL things Beutiful!  :girlheart:

[rosered]

Yes, Rose
But even though, it hurts now. We have peace and joy in the hope that in His time He will make ALL things Beutiful!  :girlheart:

  Yes indeed  Caff ,  Our Hope is In   God  :HeartThrob:

[eaglesway]

The City is already real and "coming down from heaven" as the generations of the age pass, living stones are added to her upon the foundation of the apostles, Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone.

Outside the city are adulterers, sorcerers, homosexuals, fornicators, everyone who makes and loves a lie. They are outside because the only way in is the Door, anyone who attempts to enter any other way is a thief and a liar.

But this city is the heavenly Jerusalem, beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth(Psalm 48 Heb 12) on the sides of the north, the heights of MT ZION.

As Isaiah reports, "UPON THIS MOUNTAIN I WILL TAKE AWAY THE VEIL THAT COVERS ALL THE PEOPLE".

Weeping endures for the night, behold, joy comes in the morning. Blessed are those who go forth weeping, spreading seed, they will return rejoicing, their sheaves carried with them. Beautiful upon the mountaintops are the feet of them that spread good news of glad tidings for all.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: :thumbsup: :banana:

[tm55]

I believe that Rev. 22:17 may complete the thought in Rev. 22:14-15:

"The Spirit AND THE BRIDE say 'Come!'" (Rev. 22:17a) -- The bride is the church, and is in the New Jerusalem in Rev. 22. So who is the bride's "Come!" appeal addressed to? The setting continues to be the Rev. 21-22 new heaven/new earth age, since verse 22:17c refers to the "water of life," which was introduced in Rev. 22:1, and it's the Rev. 21-22 bride who is speaking -- not the "church" or the "lampstands." Verse 22:17c appears to rule out Christ as being the verse 22:17a addressee, since it asks "all who are thirsty" to "Come." The unavoidable conclusion, it seems to me, is that by process of elimination, it must be addressed to those in the Lake of Fire, located outside the city gates (Rev. 22:15), which never close (Rev. 21:25).

[WhiteWings]

Again, I'm a firm believer in UR. God chose to reveal it to me and so, I know there is always an answer. I just want to understand all I can, not only for myself but so I have good answers if I'm ever asked.
Rev 22: 14-15
Happy are those doing His commands that the authority shall be thiers unto the tree of life, and by the gates they may enter into the city ;15and without are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the whoremongers, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one who is loving and is doing a lie."
Now, I know we will all be changed and made new when eternity begins, but these verses are near the end of the Bible after hades and death are cast in the lake of fire and after the verse that says "Behold I make all things new"
Is the Bible just not in order or whats going on here?

Those inside the city are saved and those outside are not.... yet.

People are invited to enter the city and drink from the water/spring of life which gives eternal life (John 4:14).

Revelation also tells us about a tree for the healing of the nations. Those inside the city need no healing. Nations in the Bible are (almost) always everything except Israel. In Rev 21:24-26 we read the nations come inside the city. Obviously that means they were outside. The Greek text uses words that are often used for a king marching with his army. Armies enter New Jerusalem. Not to fight but to honor. To get healed.

The above are two examples of those outside the gates not only are allowed to enter but they are invited to enter. But they have to leave their old ways (theft, murder, etc) outside of the gates.



Rev.22:14-15 and you will see that those who are outside the gate are those who are under Gods judgment and that if they keep His commandments have the right to the tree of life and may ENTER IN THOUGH THE GATES INTO THE CITY.

Revelation 22:14-15  Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.


"In the book of Revelation we do not have the final plan of God. Paul, in 1Co_15:22-28 takes us much further into the future than does the book of Revelation. To illustrate this more clearly, study the following: 1Co_15:22-28 as compared with the new heaven and new earth of Revelation 20-22: 

In 1Co_15:22-28, we have:
 
No more rule
No more authority
No more power
No more enemies
No more reigning
All subjected
No more death, death destroyed
All made alive, immortal 

In Revelation 20-22, we have: 

Still rule (Rev_20:6; Rev_22:5)
Son still reigns (Rev_22:1-5; Rev_21:5)
Authority (Rev_21:24-25)
Power (Rev_21:24-25; Rev_22:2)
Kings (Rev_21:24-26)
Saints reign (Rev_22:5)
Second death still exists (Rev_21:8)
The nations still mortal (Rev_22:2)

[eaglesway]

Excellent post, WW

Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.

Of Abraham it is written in Heb 11:10-"for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God."


There is another view, that does not necessarily negate the literal view. In describing the city, the 12 foundation stones bear the names of the 12 apostles.....so consider the possibility that Revelations is a series of pictures of spiritual realities related to the body of Christ, "hear what the spirit is saying to the churches".... The revelation opens with Jesus walking among the lampstands/churches and ends with the Spirit and the Bride inviting all to drink freely of the water of life.

The Spirit and the Bride say, "Come"-

1 Pet 2:4 And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice and precious in the sight of God, 5 you also, as living stones, are being built up as a  spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

Isaiah 28:16
Therefore thus says the Lord God, "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a tested stone, A costly cornerstone for the foundation, firmly placed. He who believes in it will not be disturbed.


Eph2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Now therefore you are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together is growing unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

The dwelling place of God is with men. Emanuel, God with us.

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

When the writer of Hebrews says, "You are come to Mt Zion and to the city of the living God- the heavenly Jerusalem..." He is speaking figuratively(obvious if you read it in context). We are come. Present tense. Earlier in the chapter. "We are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses"(He is coming in the clouds with 10,000s upon 10,000s of His holy ones).

We are inside. Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers, fornicators etc. Kings represent principalities and powers being brought under subjection, every adversary will hear the words "Come drink freely of the water of life" eventually, but for now this call comes from out of the true church of God, the ecclesia, the body of Christ, the city of God, the habitation of God in the spirit.

If you think about it, we are the city. We will be the city in the age to come. We are coming down out of heaven, to be revealed in full glory in the next age.

Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.


We are becoming something corporately for the ages to come, more than we are in this present age.

Ephesians 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

Revelation is John's apocalypse. Apocalypse means "unveiing". John is unveiling the same "mystery" paul is unveiling to the Ephesians, and if you notice- most of the imagery of revelation if found in Ephesians. The man-child for instance in Eph 4 and 6. The Bride and the marriage in Eph 5:32 "Behold, I show you a mystery- I speak of Christ and the church."

And I have put My words in your mouth; I have covered you with the shadow of My hand, That I may plant the heavens, Lay the foundations of the earth, And say to Zion, 'You are My people.'" Is 5:16


Eph 3:8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ; 10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places, 11 according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12 in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through faith in Him.

This figurative language about the city of God is all over the scripture.

Psalm 48
Great is the Lord, and greatly to be praised in the city of our God, in the mountain of his holiness.

2 Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion, on the sides of the north, the city of the great King.

3 God is known in her palaces for a refuge.

4 For, lo, the kings were assembled, they passed by together.

5 They saw it, and so they marvelled; they were troubled, and hasted away.

In Psalm 48 we see the principalities and powers surrounding the city, rulers(kings) of hosts of wickedness in the heavenly realms, and they cower and flee as they see the wisdom of God demonstrated to them through the ecclesia of God. All of this is figurative language for us, a chosen people, a holy nation, a priesthood called out from among men- to be a refuge for the world, transforming the earth, making all things new, ministers of reconciliation in the ages to come setting the whole creation free from futility into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Ps 45:13 The king's daughter is all glorious within: her clothing is of wrought gold. She shall be brought unto the king in raiment of needlework: the virgins her companions that follow her shall be brought unto thee. With gladness and rejoicing shall they be brought: they shall enter into the king's palace.

[lastpost]

"In the book of Revelation we do not have the final plan of God. Paul, in 1Co_15:22-28 takes us much further into the future than does the book of Revelation"

My own belief is that the Seer of Revelation, no doubt had many gifts, but was probably only speaking of one vision, unless it was received in parts and he joined it as a whole. Whereas Paul had many gifts which were, I expect, used hundreds of times over his years as a follower of Christ and the results are, as we know, history. Paul could go into trance. This can allow a person to speak with Someone, or it can allow a vision to be seen of various kinds, like the Seer's, or perhaps like a tableaux in which a lesson or a message is given, or the trance can also be used like, in my opinion, the prophets of old used, where the Spirit would actually use the vocal chords. Then there is simple influence by the Spirit, where a person has the words impinged (hence take care from whence one hears!). In short, Paul has left more records of His instruction by the Spirit and so it would make sense that his records would be more complete as to the future. But my own opinion - and I apologise if this upsets anyone - is that what was given then is not necessarily as full a picture as can be given when humanity is more spiritually prepared.


"When the writer of Hebrews says, "You are come to Mt Zion and to the city of the living God- the heavenly Jerusalem..." He is speaking figuratively(obvious if you read it in context). We are come. Present tense. Earlier in the chapter. "We are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses"(He is coming in the clouds with 10,000s upon 10,000s of His holy ones)"

My own personal belief is that the cloud is surrounding us now and it is growing.


Peace in the Present and Fullness in the Future

[sheila]

 Leviticus  ch 16  look at the shadow of those outside the Holy city shown in Atonement process. v 22 and 26

[eaglesway]

"In the book of Revelation we do not have the final plan of God. Paul, in 1Co_15:22-28 takes us much further into the future than does the book of Revelation"

My own belief is that the Seer of Revelation, no doubt had many gifts, but was probably only speaking of one vision, unless it was received in parts and he joined it as a whole. Whereas Paul had many gifts which were, I expect, used hundreds of times over his years as a follower of Christ and the results are, as we know, history. Paul could go into trance. This can allow a person to speak with Someone, or it can allow a vision to be seen of various kinds, like the Seer's, or perhaps like a tableaux in which a lesson or a message is given, or the trance can also be used like, in my opinion, the prophets of old used, where the Spirit would actually use the vocal chords. Then there is simple influence by the Spirit, where a person has the words impinged (hence take care from whence one hears!). In short, Paul has left more records of His instruction by the Spirit and so it would make sense that his records would be more complete as to the future. But my own opinion - and I apologise if this upsets anyone - is that what was given then is not necessarily as full a picture as can be given when humanity is more spiritually prepared.


"When the writer of Hebrews says, "You are come to Mt Zion and to the city of the living God- the heavenly Jerusalem..." He is speaking figuratively(obvious if you read it in context). We are come. Present tense. Earlier in the chapter. "We are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses"(He is coming in the clouds with 10,000s upon 10,000s of His holy ones)"

My own personal belief is that the cloud is surrounding us now and it is growing.


Peace in the Present and Fullness in the Future

Yes. Lord Jesus come quickly, The Lord is always coming. Wherever two or more of you gather in my name there I am in the midst of you. The Bride is always "coming down out of heaven". The figure is the word cloud for the continually growing assembly of Hebrews 12.

However, the apocalypse of John game closer to the final plan of God than what was earlier posted.

In Revelations 5:13 we see the fulfillment of Phil. 2:10,11....


Phil 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Rev 5:13 also sees the fulfillment of Eph 1:9-11, Col. 1:15-20, Romans 8:22-28 and Eph 4:10 among others.