Helloes from Finland!

[JonesHenry]

Hey! Im just a guy from Finland, who has been "lurking" on your site for a long time!


This is a very profesional site, with a very professional attitude towards the bible! Also a lot of TOLERANCE for people who believe differently!


That unfortunately is the one thing that simply does not exist here in Finland :sigh:


I was a part of a small church here loosely based on the Azusa street movement;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azusa_Street_Revival



The pastor was a fluent greek speaker, who was very awkward to talk about this particular topic :eek:



He tried to avoid it to the best of hes ability. He was a really GREAT GUY..he just didnt want to talk about HELL!



He KNEW the bible had plenty of contradictions, so he basicly tried to compromise.



Compromise = dont talk about it!



This however did not fully work...atleast for the 3 months i was there.



Finally he kind of "broke down" Not because of himself, but for the OTHER members of the congregation!



He said something in the lines of "Jesus will return soon, and take those he has CHOSEN with him to heaven! Those who stay behind can still go to heaven "somehow" if they die a death of Martyrdom"



The bible CLEARLY speaks of gods kindom ON EARTH!



He didnt want to talk about it because this would threaten hes entire "Heaven vs Hell" mantra.



He was a VERY GOOD both speaker and teacher of greek!



I wrote to him about surden "mistranslations" wich made him very upset. He finally said publicly that he didnt really "know" what hell was :dontknow:



For example Jesus warns in Mark 9 about Gehenna. Here in Finland they just translate it as "Hell"

"If your eye causes you to stumble, cast it out. It is better for you to enter into God's Kingdom with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into the Gehenna* of fire, 'where their worm doesn't die, and the fire is not quenched.'"

Gospel of Mark chapter 9 verses 47-48



The greek word would therefor be Hades.



So he...as a fluent greek speaker...simply "didnt know"



Nice pastor you got there :doh: He actually CAN speak greek, he just "dosent know" :icon_jokercolor: :Peace2:



So he didnt know...untill finally one day he declared BOLDLY that HE KNEW!



ETERNAL TORMENT IN OUTER DARKNESS!



That was basicly what he "knew" However he became "sick" after this and had a teacher from a Lutherian church come and teach about this paticular topic.



At that point i left.



Im not saying that "i know" What im saying is...the bible teaches that GOD HIMSELF is the great CONSUMING FIRE!

"For our God is a consuming fire!"

Pauls letter to the Hebrews chapter 12 verse 29



Aparently THIS is what he means when he said


" It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

Pauls letter to the Hebrews chapter 10 verse 31



It is possible, that all HUMANS who are thrown into the fire DIE!



Infact ironicly after i wrote to some members of the congregation about this he CHANGED HES STANCE and sayd just that!



That they simply DIE!



First of all i believe the "second death" is metaphor for some kind of a transformation. The Greek words Apollumi(lost) Oletrhos(corrupt) or Apoleia(Destruction) would be better used to describe actual DEATH but they are actually NOT FOUND in the greek text at all!


"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? May it never be! We who DIED TO SIN, how could we live in it any longer? Or don't you know that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his DEATH? We were BURIED therefore with him through baptism into DEATH, that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his DEATH, we will also be part of his resurrection;  knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be in bondage to sin. For he who has DIED has been freed from sin. But if we DIED with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him;knowing that Christ, being raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over him! For the death that he died, he died to sin one time; but the life that he lives, he lives to God. Thus consider yourselves also to be DEAD to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. "

Pauls letter to the Romans chapter 6 verses 1-11



This is a very common believe amongst Universalists. They simply believe that those dead will be resurrected later at the end of the eons!



What does the BIBLE say about this?



"Outside ARE the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood."

Book of Revelation chapter 22 verse 15



Now someone might say...well, they still ARE THERE;being burned ALIVE!



At first...lets take a look at the word "torment" here

http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/basanizo.html



So they are actually being...refined :girlheart:?



Finally a little thing about Hebrews.

https://bialczynski.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/habir-1f3a4ce12d4e113a.jpg



The Hebrews did not believe in the western concept, that originally originated in Ancient Egypt, but were later adopted in Greek filosophy and also later into Roman catholic GNOSTIG theology!



Such as...you can be "alive" while also being "dead"



This infact was VERY ALIEN to the ancient Hebrews! They believed that if you were alive....well...you were truly ALIVE!


"Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth will AWAKE, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

Book of Daniel chapter 12 verse 2



Note that the word "Contempt" comes from the Hebrew word "Darone" wich means both shame and DISGUST of a rotten decaying UNBURIED body! It was translated in Finish just to mean "horror"



So when you went to die you actually were A SLEEP!



Note:i take Near Death Epxerience for EXACTLY WHAT THEY ARE = VISIONS & EXPERIENCES SENT BY GOD TO CHANGE OR MODIFY PEOPLES BEHAVIOR!



Take for example the Hebrew word for the "soul"

http://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/8921/nefesh-neshama-and-ruach-as-words-for-soul



Nefesh LITERALLY means "animated creature"



Basicly...you were either ALIVE or DEAD! No "in betweens" like being in a "state of suspendet animation"



So...if we are to take the bible LITERALLY they are still alive...being PURIFIED!



Note, the citys gates ARE NOT CLOSED!


"Its gates will in no way be shut by day (for there will be no night there), 26 and they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it so that they may enter."

Book of Revelation chapter 21 verses 25-26



But NO UNCLEAN MAY ENTER THE CITY!


"There will in no way enter into it anything profane, or one who causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life. "

Book of Revelation chapter 21 verse 27



So...do the people of New Jerusalem just go out there with Jesus and watch there former friends, comrades and family members being "scorched alive" Are they having a great big heavenly barbecue party to celebrate that there enemies are being tormented...FOREVER!   :eek:



Me thinks NO!!!  :laugh:



It's IN THE SCRIPTURE, yet EVEN THEN people will NOT BELIEVE!



Aparently the GOOD NEWS really is TOO GOOD NEWS for some :punish:



Then this pastor argued that when Jesus talked about Gehenna, he was talking about THE DEAD BODIES outside Jerusalem.



I have just 1 question for you;do dead bodies in Hebrew culture SCREAM OUT IN PAIN :Chinscratch:?

"He answered them, "He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, the field is the world; and the good seed, these are the children of the Kingdom; and the darnel weeds are the children of the evil one. The enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. As therefore the darnel weeds are gathered up and burned with fire; so will it be at the end of this age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will gather out of his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling, and those who do iniquity, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be weeping and the gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear. "

Gospel of Matthew chapter 12 verses 37-43



Again me thinks NOT!  :banana:



Aparently the GOOD NEWS really was TOO GOOD NEWS!!!


:laugh:



There screaming in pain and agony as they are being PURIFIED BY GODS righteous HOLY FIRE so that they can actually ENTER THE CITY!!!



Ouch! Took me approximately 33-years to figure that one out!



Aparently Jesus wasn't kidding when he said;

"For God didn't send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him"

Gospel of John 3 chapter 17 verse



Note! This is as good as it is EVER going to get translated from Greek to English based on the LITERAL English Word Bible!

http://ebible.org/web



God has told me "though a friend" that this TRUTH has been cleverly hidden away in the bible, since he has WANTED it to remain hidden! He did so ON PURPOSE!



It was to "inspire" men on there way of faith and to most of all...SAVE THEM from the righteous fire of AGE LASTING CORRECTION! Because that is what "Kolasis Aionios" truly means!



But...because god is good, he has DECICED to reveal this truth to all mankind, rather then to keep it hidden away so that EVIL MEN can use to spread there DARK AGE THEOLOGY!

http://egregores.blogspot.fi/2010/10/augustine-in-defense-of-torturing.html



This...NOT because we deserve it...but because GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS LOVE :dsunny:

"He who doesn't love doesn't know God, for God is love."

First Johns letter chapter 4 verse 8



So...there you go! God plans to save all because...


"For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we have set our trust in the living God, who is the Savior of ALL MEN, especially of those who believe. COMMAND AND TEACH THESE THINGS!"

1 Timothy 4:10-11




Because HE WANTS TO!


:dsunny:



And if there something god wants...HE GETS IT DONE!!!

I am God, there is no other, I am God, and there is no one like me; I reveal the end from the beginning, from ancient times I reveal what is to be: I say, "My purpose shall take effect, I will accomplish all that I please."

Isaiah 46:9-10



This is truly a salvation that none of us "deserved"



Anyway....thank you very much for this message board Gary and everyone else :declare:



These was a guy here fighting prostate cancer at the age of 70 I just wanted to give some videos here to "cheer him up" so to say.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yl8Y8I_TsjI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnEQFno794s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHnO02G3qww



Please pray for me! God has put a terrible burden on my shoulders to bare. I cannot say what that burden is...as you would not understand. You would think of me as an "evil person" if i told you.


However...i have been commanded to do a very special task, but it is VERY HARD mentally. What i can reveal is, that it is kind of a way for me to preach the gospel, but people will think of it as extremely provoking. And NO...it has absolutely NOTHING to do with "hell"



Please pray for me that god might give me strength so that i can carry out the will he has set for me...and then finally die in peace!



Thank you for all your help and support!



P.S:Did you by the way know that cannabis also HEALS CANCER!?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DttdDOqQMuY



Heres an adress of a guy i know who sells it in the Unider Statses. I however unfortunately cannot take advantage of this as i do not live in North-America :sigh:

drblessedlee@outlook.com



Anyways thats all for now! Bye bye!

:Peace2:

[lomarah]

Hi brother. Welcome.

[Tom]

Welcome. I'm glad you decided to stop lurking and start communicating. I'm familiar with the Azusa Street Revival. I hung out with some Charismatic folks for awhile years ago.

It's good that your pastor understood Greek, but it's too bad he was so locked into his church doctrine. I've read that the "hell" doctrine came from Egypt where the priests and politicians used it to control the people with fear which is the same reason the Romans used it and the same reason the Protestants use it. I agree that the Greek "hades," literally "unseen," was the only word that the King James should have translated as the Old English word "hell," and not "Gehenna" twelve times to deceive those who would read scripture.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/TheGehennaOfFire.html

Your pastor didn't know what "hell" was because he was torn between scripture and the church doctrine that blinded him to the truth in scripture.

We disagree about "the second death-the lake of fire," but you'll find folks here who agree with you. I think it's literal death from which unbelievers will be immortalized at the consummation of the eons when death is abolished.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/TheLakeOfFire.html

I think your reference to Revelation 22:15 is about outside the city of Jerusalem not the lake of fire, and I don't believe mortals will remain alive to be continuously burned alive in the lake of fire because scripture says it is the second death. The dead know nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5). So they won't be conscious to be tortured in fire. Scripture only says the Adversary, the wild beast, and the false prophet will be tormented for the eons of the eons (Revelation 20:10). I don't agree that mortals will be conscious to be "refined" or "chastened" either, but you will find people here who agree with you. I believe the eonian chastening refers to the nations that will be judged for how they treated Israel a thousand years before individuals are judged before the great white throne.

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

I hear ya about the doctrine of the immortality of the soul that I disagree with, but you will find people here who believe it. I think you're either dead or alive even though a time will come when all mankind will be immortalized, believers first for eonian life in Christ, then unbelievers at the consummation of the eons.

I agree with the figurative interpretation of death as sleep (John 11:11-14).

You're going to find people here with various interpretations of scripture. I think we're all just students of scripture who come here to communicate with fellow believers who at least have the common belief that all on earth and in the heavens will be reconciled to God through Christ's blood on the cross. 

Keep and open mind, and enjoy the forum.

[Lazarus Short]

Welcome, JonesHenry!  I hope you're with us a LONG time!!   :friendstu: :gimmefive: :friendstu:

[sheila]

            :welcome: :newb:  :girlheart:

[rosered]

   :welcome:   and God bless you with more of Himself  :HeartThrob:

[marie glen]

Hello! Very interesting to read your comments posted from Finland..

-- "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth will AWAKE, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

Book of Daniel chapter 12 verse 2"

----------------
I was happy to see in the Hebrew, "everlasting contempt" would be closer translated as "agelasting judgment/decision" - as His 1st advent was prophesied by the ancient Spring Holy Days, his long 2nd one, logically, is prophesied by the Fall ones - Trumpets - Day of Atonement - Tabernacles (when "God Himself will tabernacle with man" upon Earth made new in a universe made new (when He is "all in all")

It's sad to hear of the struggles and difficulties which the hell doctrine causes some well meaning hearts..

Amen, we are all "salted with fire" and when He returns He will gather His own (the sheep, and the wheat, into His barn) and the tares into bundles to be burned (at His return - to the gathering to Armegeddon! a fiery 'judgment/results, but not `hell`:)

God bless! and welcome! :smile: