Evil is to humble us ?

[newlove]

This point came up in my last post /thread .Tom mentioned it . I am now considering
Its implications which seem puzzling.
To accept this means God wanted it so
and planned it so.
Is disease part of evil ? The compassion
it should stimulate is a good thing the same
as in response to natural disasters.
This is already trying furthet to this there
is all the evil of people that weare ordered
to forgive and meet with love.
Is it not strange that God be the author of
evil ?

[sheila]

when God put us in the garden..it was the desire of Him that man should have dominion and rule over all creatures. Thus the commandment

to not eat of the tree of knowledge of good/evil..but that we should gain and maintain dominion by obedience/listening to His direction.

   Genesis 4;7   If you do what is right,will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right,sin is crouching at your door;

  it desires to have you,BUT YOU MUST MASTER IT..

   sin comes in the guise of a serpent that causes doubt in the mind of the 'word of God' and His commands unto us...then it leads us

  into disobedience as if it was a good/beneficial thing.  thus sin entered all in Adam and begin it's terrible rule over us with it's destructive

  hateful fruit that ends in desolation and death to us.  sin being exceedingly sinful kills us when the command[to not eat] comes

from our God...who has our benefit in mind.

   thus..we are humbled by the evil/corruption/sickness/murder suffering and death...and must be rescued of God from it all.

   I liken it to a child that did what it's parent told him not to do[for his own good] heeding the voice of a friend and doing it..then

finding that he has bit off more than he can chew and needing help and bailed out by his parents.

   He is humbled..in thinking he knew more then his parents and not forseeing the consequences of the act...greatful to be

delivered from the horrible consequences...and has a greater respect for the instructions of his parents from then on.

   it was a hard lesson and he suffered for it..and learned what was right.  some of our most well learned lessons are through our failures

[Tom]

I think it seems strange because most of us raised in orthodox theology have really been taught to believe there are two gods with Satan being the cause of evil, and he'll eventually be completely successful at ruining God's creation by torturing the majority of mankind in fire forever. This of course is a lie that Satan has propagated through the Roman Empire and even through the Protestant Church which is supposed to be based on scripture. The problem is that the ancient manuscripts of the scriptures have been distorted by forgery in translation to support the distorted evangel of the Roman Catholic Church and the Protestant Church. The truth of scripture is that there is one God, the Father, out of whom all is, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all is. Scripture also clearly says that God created evil to humble us. Satan is simply God's chief Adversary who is controlled by God even though many people find that hard to believe. Read the book of Job to see for yourself. Satan will not be successful at ruining God's creation and torturing the majority of mankind in fire forever because God's ultimate plan is to reconcile all on earth and in the heavens so that God may be all in all. You won't hear that in your church though. I think God put Adam and Eve in the garden to choose to know evil so they would better appreciate God's love in the long run. We need the darkness to appreciate the light, hate to appreciate love, and evil to appreciate good. I think it's God's wisdom that it's so. Evil is no fun when we're struggling with it, but we're very thankful when we get saved from it. And it makes us love God even more when we see for real that he saves us from it because he loves us.   

[rosered]

 
Hi newlove , :welcome:

  That is a great question    you asked .

    :iagree: with Tom and Shelia

and you are right about  the calamities  that befall mankind .

Experiencing evil    in the  short time we are mortal   
  Being  human   and having no power over   evil  as a whole  in the world , in our weakened  condition  , even evil  rising up within us   at times of  unexpected 
trials  is a battle  of itself


How many times   have we seen and   heard    bad news

How many  times has  mental illness  and  you can look at it as  sin sickness   
  Sin is the  evil    or error     our flesh and blood succumbs too
fail to resist (pressure, temptation, or some other negative force)
  It is humbling     and surrender is  evident   ,  we just look at the world problems and see this    rising and failing  constantly   
 
The bible warns us to keep ourselves in the love of God     ,  and yet   we feel thats impossible   to do without  faith 
  without faith its impossible to please God     

  So  how many times  do we just as those  whom its written  about ask God to increase our faith

     For me   God is the only one who  can       
   Down here in this short and temporary  stay   70  to 80 years by  grace  of God     

I see this as being dipped in    as a    baptism  of sorts   that everyone gets to experience ,   being human   and being more than human    .

    The waters  just like many voices   speaking ,     are life and death  [Life and death are ours ]  , washing of the Water of the Word ,   what we get to    be   sunk down into or  raised back up out of   by the POWER OF GOD ,     often and  many examples  in the Bible of  this very thing 

At times it is  humbling and other times it is   refreshing     and renewing   , it just depends on or state of mind and heart as to which   "baptism"   we are undergoing  in  that moment

   The cleansing of the unrighteousness  in our  bodies         or the gifts of Christ to increase   in the Spirit and life in Christ     Body  as ONE IN THE   same SPIRIT

I believe we become aware  and spiritually awakened      as  God gives us the ability  to discern      what is happening   to all of us

It is God who saves   , Tom is right about that !! and Shelia   saying,   We become  more obedient as His children to   Him and loving Him  as an excellent  FATHER  to us all  !!    :HeartThrob:


     

[marie glen]

This point came up in my last post /thread .Tom mentioned it . I am now considering
Its implications which seem puzzling.
To accept this means God wanted it so
and planned it so.
Is disease part of evil ? The compassion
it should stimulate is a good thing the same
as in response to natural disasters.
This is already trying furthet to this there
is all the evil of people that weare ordered
to forgive and meet with love.
Is it not strange that God be the author of
evil ?

I do think it is strange.. It's my belief what He did was create rational creatures, and with rationality comes the ability to make choices.. although thank the Good LORD they are of very limited range! and to say ppl have no ability to actually make any choices, I believe is not supported by the evidence of our eyes, nor in the word.

To me, it's like this, God made Hitler, who had thinking ability and thus the ability to "choose life or choose death" - but He did not create Hitler to BE Hitler.. otherwise we would have to think God designed all wars, the holocaust and every evil act ever..

Instead it's my belief He made creatures who could veer off His path of Perfect Observance of His will in every thought, word and deed.. To me it seems apparent.

And, I think all this has to do with why on Israel's ancient Day of Atonement, the sanctuary had to be cleansed - is this God's way of saying, yes, He did with full intent "create evil" (a veritable bottomless pit of potential darkness) - but surely only 'indirectly' by creating (potential evil/imperfection/tree of knowing good from evil/life from death(?) by endowing thinking ability to man and angel.. I have to wonder what was our Father's other option? No rational creatures? ever? It's my belief He designed it so all would take this unavoidable journey/lesson through imperfection once and all together..
    :icon_flower:

[marie glen]

I think it seems strange because most of us raised in orthodox theology have really been taught to believe there are two gods with Satan being the cause of evil, and he'll eventually be completely successful at ruining God's creation by torturing the majority of mankind in fire forever.

...amen.. it's just so totally craZy! :faint: and infinitely illogical!! :o

[CHB]

To me, it's like this, God made Hitler, who had thinking ability and thus the ability to "choose life or choose death" - but He did not create Hitler to BE Hitler.. otherwise we would have to think God designed all wars, the holocaust and every evil act ever..

Instead it's my belief He made creatures who could veer off His path of Perfect Observance of His will in every thought, word and deed.. To me it seems apparent.

This sounds really scary to me. If we can do things outside of the will of God, wouldn't that make us more powerful than God? If God knows the future and we don't know what the next second will bring how can we veer of God's path? It is scary to think if we are allowed to make our own decision we could doom ourselves. That would be like putting a blind fold over your eyes and allowed to walk around on the top of a high mountain.

God has to give us our choices and he has to know what choices we are going to make, we don't. How many times have you planned to do something and was prevented from doing it?

God did fix things so that we have wars, the holocaust, and every evil act. If not, who is to say all kinds of things could develope without God's power and cause havock?

CHB 

[sheila]

 I have had an expierence like this...the ability to see which way a child of mine was headed and what was going to be the end of it

  before it ever happened. If I can..through my short expierence..see the writing on the wall..of what's coming..WHAT OF GOD?

[eaglesway]

God is the ultimate source of causality.

But the scriptures does call Satan the god of this world and causality is attributed to him and to people who are wicked or conversely, righteous. This is the only possible reason for judgment and discipline. If God attributed no causality to anyone then there could be no judgment- because God would be the source of every whim of man or angel.

It is very difficult to remove all causality from all sources but God and retain any sense of the lanuage and context of scripture, so..

It is certainly possible that God has allowed a certain level of causality within beings He has created in His image and likeness, for His own reasons, without those bengs being somehow "more powerful than God".

I kno it is an unpopular position, but I believe that God, although He is sovereign in the ultimate resolution, is teaching the creation the glorious liberty of the sons of God(love) through futility(self-will).

In order to accomplish that He has instituted a limited measure of sovereignty to every creature He has ever created.

This limited sovereignity is called chaos.(In the beginning the earth was without form and void)

It is the means with which Adam was able to choose the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

The drawing of that limited sovereignity into union with God is the purpose of speech/word/thought...."Let there be light"

Jesus is the speech/word/thought of God, illuminating every creature that comes into the world. The thought is- Christ crucified, birthing "new creations" through the speech/word/thought of sacrificial love.

"God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power."

"Receive the word implanted which is able to save your souls."

"I am determined to kno nothing among you but Christ and Him crucified."

What saves our souls is the speech/word/thought of God "renewing our minds" and 'conforming us to the image of the son of God". This is salvation. The only salvation. The source(alpha) and goal(omega) of all salvation. It is not about "eternal judgment" in terms of a destination or event. All events are the result of when a person yields their limited sovereignty to the influence of the Holy Spirit and the "image of Christ" within- Christ crucified.

This is the transforming word/speech/thought that enters by grace through faith and begins the work of progressive salvation, which is transformation and restoration- "newness of life"

"If any man be in Christ Jesus he is a new creation, old things pass away, behold, all things become new."

What is passing away is futility and chaos(death), as we are conformed to the harmony and beauty of Christ as a first-fruits of God, created for good works, the reconcilitaion of all, setting the whole creation free into the glorious liberty we have received, until, through the fulfillment of the ages- God is all in all

I think these verses in 1 Peter 1 affirm this view of salvation as a process of transition from chaos to harmony.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, 7 so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 8 and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things into which angels long to look.

13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance, 15 but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; 16 because it is written, "You shall be holy, for I am holy."

17 If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth; 18 knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, 19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ. 20 For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you 21 who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

22 Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart, 23 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God. 24 For,

"All flesh is like grass,
And all its glory like the flower of grass.
The grass withers,
And the flower falls off,
25 But the word of the Lord endures forever."

And this is the word which was preached to you.

Jesus said the ones who reject His word are judged already. This is because only the word implanted can revivify and cancel out death- creating a tree of life in the inner man. This tree of life is the source of the transformation, resurrection, and age-during life

Those who reject the speech/word/thought of God are trapped in death. They cannot get out until the word is implanted. It is for this reason we persuade men- as we are engeged in the mnistry of reconciliation- PROCLAIMING THE WORD OF RECONCILIATION.
This is the inheritance of the sons of God, their mission, the "good work" for which they are "created as a kind of first-fruits of God's creatures".

"For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body."

Even as it was revealed to the OT prophets and saints that they were not serving themselves- but were servng the ones to come- US, so also it is being revealed to us that we are not serving ourselves, but the ones to come after us in the ages of reconciliation to come.

A kind of first-fruits, thats all we are :o)
:2c: