Human Teachers

[Redkora]

One thing with what I am struggling is the idea of having a human teacher. I know that the Holy Spirit, God, and the Son should be my primary teachers, so I feel guilty for feeling as if I want a human teacher, or mentor. I used to have a mentor of sorts, but it came to a point where it was not in either of our best interests to be in contact with one another. I feel that I need another mentor who can help me through this current season of life, but I wonder if this is just my flesh wanting to be led along and be bonded.

Any thoughts?

[SeekerSA]

Hi Redkora

Your best tutor is the Holy Spirit.  All that a tutor can do is give you advice.  Jesus was very specific in teaching us of who the Teacher is.

If you want counseling in a particular area, the ministry boards are there for this.  Again, we all can just offer advice, at least there you only bear your soul to a few, what is discussed there stays there.

PM me if you want this.

Blessings

[Kratos]

I agree that ultimately the Lord is our High Priest and the Holy Spirit is our Teacher, but we must not ignore the fact that we are His Body and He touches the world through us. Jesus commanded us all to go into the world and make disciples so discipleship and being discipled is of God and Biblical. We all know that the word "discipleship" puts a lot of Christians off because the enemy always tries to pervert the way of God so we toss out the real with the false.

Jesus, also, when He ascended gave gifts to men among them, teachers. Ultimately, it is the Holy Spirit who teaches us and it is His voice we are listening for when another teaches, but He does use people with skin on to manifest Himself in the earth.

It has become a sign of spirituality for Christians to say they are under no one but the Lord and that they do not sit under any teachers except the Holy Spirit. But how spiritual is it to try to do things differently than the way that the Lord has ordained to fulfill His ministry through his Body? We are ordained to be a Kingdom of Priests and we must not be afraid to minister as a priest to another or to be ministered to by the priesthood of another.

To me, the danger comes in when we give another person a "permanent" position that should only be filled by the Lord. For example, the Greek word for pastor or shepherd is poimen and just means to feed. Jesus alone is my Shepherd or Pastor all of the time, but I can certainly be fed by anyone He chooses to send to me at any moment. For that moment, that person is pastoring me, but I will never again say that a man is "my pastor" all of the time except Jesus.

Similarly, I have no problem coming under a man or woman in a situation where I am placed under their authority by the Lord for a purpose. However, when that purpose is complete, we are again just brethren. Only the Lord remains over me all of the time in my life.

Finally, the Holy Spirit is always my Teacher, but I am not too proud to sit under any man or woman of God who has something from the Lord for me. At that moment when I sit at their feet, they are my teacher, but when that moment is passed, we are again brethren.

I fear sometimes that the saying that "the only thing needed for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing" is being lived out in our generation in the church. Those who seek power and glory and are willing to substitute for the Lord in people's lives are the only ones willing to be pastors and teachers and priests these days. People naturally look for a priest to stand between them and God and help them with the ministry of reconciliation and if we do not step up and be who we have been predestined to be, others will certainly fill the vacuum.

How do we think the Lord is going to train His Overcoming Kings and Priests if we are afraid to either rule or minister to others because we only want the Lord to do it?

John

[Loveroftruth]

From the mouth of Jesus:


As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.


"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

I think the issues most of us have now is trying to get rid of all the teachings we heard through man  :mshock: :msealed: :mblush:

[Kratos]

LT,

Then, why are we here or why do we dare to read other's posts? Paul talks about those who say they have no need of some members of the Body in I Cor. 12. It is a corporate thing with God. Always has been and always will be. Notice how the Head ministers our nourishment:

Col 2:18  Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
Col 2:19  And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

I am glad that my spiritual nourishment comes to me from the Head of the Body and I am, also, glad that it comes by joints and bands through His Body.

But that is just me.

John

[Michele]

Interesting thread....surely God speaks to us in many ways....one way is through human teachers.  I believe that when a message from another speaks to our heart.....it is really God speaking. 

[Loveroftruth]

Hey John,
I believe sharing and teaching are different but thats my thought.

The danger when we follow teachers is that no one has all truth I guess, I mean, do you know any teacher right now who you would be confident to send your daughter to to be molded and shaped?

We find someone we believe is a teacher and then we swallow all of their teaching...

I can ALWAYS tell a person who has been taught under John Hagee -- they become followers and start to look like him :mshock:

I can also always tell a person who has sort of followed Eby...

I think maybe we sort of "take on" something of them and start to resemble them.

I believe that we share and we receive but I dont believe we should look to one man to lead us the way - thats just my opinion and could be wrong :HeartThrob:

I did not intend to start a debate
Peace

[hopeful]

SG said:

Interesting thread....surely God speaks to us in many ways....one way is through human teachers.  I believe that when a message from another speaks to our heart.....it is really God speaking.   

Yes, Amen SG, which is why we have no need for man to teach us but God does teach us through men.

When our only teaching is from God through men, I think it slows our growth but when we are taught both ways - directly from God with out a man being used and through men, then we will grow stronger and more quickly; that is as long as we don't elevate any man God speaks through to a place he doesn't belong.

[SeekerSA]

I will simply say this and no one is wrong per se.

When you do not have the Holy Spirit and specifically the gift of discernment which I believe He does give us in various measure, then listening to men only is dangerous.

If a man is biased in any way and let's that into his message then those that are lazy and do nor verify in scripture to see what was said is true, then that bias is taken on lock, stock and barrel.

I do believe the He will lead you in all Truth and He gives what you are able to receive for that moment.  I agree we must be open for God to use others and even if there may be errors, the meat is there and we are to spit out the bones.

The ones who do not want to study the bible and choose to get sound-byte teachings from men, open themselves up to being deceived and/or wrongfully taught.

2Ti 2:7  Consider what I say, and the Lord will give you understanding in all things.

1Pe 4:11  If anyone speaks, let it be as the words of God. If anyone ministers, let him do it as of the ability which God gives, so that God may be glorified in all things through Jesus Christ, to whom is the glory, and the might forever and ever. Amen.

Both are true.  The problem comes really from the mature, speaking from past experiences and understanding and maybe missing through the HS exactly what the person needs for that moment.

Blessings

[Kratos]

Hey John,
I believe sharing and teaching are different but thats my thought.

The danger when we follow teachers is that no one has all truth I guess, I mean, do you know any teacher right now who you would be confident to send your daughter to to be molded and shaped?

We find someone we believe is a teacher and then we swallow all of their teaching...

I can ALWAYS tell a person who has been taught under John Hagee -- they become followers and start to look like him :mshock:

I can also always tell a person who has sort of followed Eby...

I think maybe we sort of "take on" something of them and start to resemble them.

I believe that we share and we receive but I dont believe we should look to one man to lead us the way - thats just my opinion and could be wrong :HeartThrob:

I did not intend to start a debate
Peace

LT,

It is okay that it brought out a debate as I think we need to hear both aspects of this truth. If you re-read my first post, I think I said much the same as you did. I do not believe anyone is supposed to be our pastor or teacher all of the time, but anyone can be used to represent the Lord in these ministries to me. It seems like semantics to me to say that sharing is not teaching. If someone teaches you something they are your teacher at that moment. I think it was Socrates who said that "every man knows something that I do not know so every man is my teacher". I like that and think that way. I am always ready to sit under any teacher that is sent my way. It is just receiving Christ in another. In fact, my children have been my teacher many times even when just toddlers.

John

[Loveroftruth]

Hey John,

I agree with you ....

I do see that I really do see differently the view of teaching vs. sharing.

I share here but in NO WAY would want to be seen as teaching :mshock:

I see sharing as two people sitting for a cup of coffee, comparing notes and sharing and exchanging ideas.

I see teaching as one sitting on a table having a cup of coffee and telling the other what is the fact of the truth and the other listening taking it in as a student.

IMO, I do believe God uses man to share bits of truths, but the problem is when one looks to another to lead and guide them.

Blessings  :HeartThrob:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I see it the way you do John, essentially. Both (Spirit taught and man taught) are the same, if you are listening for HIS voice only, it doesn't matter what person it comes thru, Amen? The problem comes, when people have not pressed in to hear His voice for themselves, and thereby become exploited by the flesh motives of others.

I found in my own walk, that just teaching people what He gave me on how to discern the spirit behind something, made a tremendous difference and opened their eyes to where the Spirit was.......and wasn't. Which makes it so much easier to withstand the lassos of carnally minded men, who seek to ride the LORD'S goodly horses in the battle.

Teaching people things that free them from the system is generally not well regarded, however.......at least not by those still in the system. :mshock:  :laughing7: Blessings to all.....

[Kratos]

LT and Cardinal,

I know I often come across as a person still holding onto some orthodox ways, but as a man who still holds to the Word of God as my source of truth, I am stuck with what I am at least for now. Many who have "freed themselves" from believing that the Bible is God's Word, can easily exalt their views over what is written if it makes them more comfortable. (I am not placing either of you in this group, but speaking in generalities only) For example, if we have seen men and women placed in bondage to men or women who carnally operated in ministry gifts, we can just say that we no longer need to receive others as ministers for the Lord and just hold onto Jesus alone. But what does the Word say?

1Co 12:20  But now are they many members, yet but one body.
1Co 12:21  And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
1Co 12:22  Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
1Co 12:23  And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
1Co 12:24  For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:
1Co 12:25  That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
1Co 12:26  And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
1Co 12:27  Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
1Co 12:28  And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1Co 12:29  Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

Carnal men and women portray those with "ministry gifts" as the more comely members that all should look up to and admire, but this is not what the Word says. God gifts the most uncomely members with more honor so that there would be no schism in the Body. In context, He is saying that those whom He sets in the Body with ministry gifts are really not the "hot shots" they think they are at all.

Those who have spent any time under the chastising hand of God as a Son knows that the only reason "some" have been set in the church as teachers is because we would be totally rejected by the Body otherwise as unneeded members. But, today, many believe that it is okay with God to say that they have no need of these members of the Body. In fact, some believe that it is a sign of spirituality to say that you have no need of these members.

I do not ever want to feel like I have outgrown the Word or the revealed way of God. The problem has been that many have exalted men to the place of being the source of divine truth in their lives instead of rightfully seeing Christ as the Truth and members of His Body who are set in the Body as teachers as those whom He ministers through for the nourishment of all.

Again, a baby and bathwater scenario IMO. It seems we have three ways to go and two of them are ditches on either side of the way of God.

(1) We can protect ourselves from carnal men in ministry by rejecting all ministry gifts and just listening to the Lord directly saying that we have no need of these uncomely members whom the Lord has set in the church.

(2) We can be so concerned with not rejecting the gifts of Christ that He has set in the church that we open ourselves to all who claim to be sent by the Lord to minister to us. Or we can think we have to accept all that these men or women say regardless of whether it bears witness by the Spirit within us as truly being the Word of the Lord to us at that moment.

(3) We can agree with the written Word that Christ has set "some" in the church as apostles, prophets, and teachers by acknowledging that we do have need of these members in our lives. At the same time, we recognize that not all who claim to be set apart for these ministries indeed have been sent by the Lord and test the spirits to see if the Lord's voice is indeed in that man or woman's voice when they speak. In which case, when we hear the Man in the man, we receive the Lord in His Body member, but when all we touch is a man in their own soulical manifestation, we take it as a man's opinion and no more.

I am in the 3rd camp today because I hold onto the hope of called and chosen manifested Sons who will be both Kings and Priests unto our God. I do not want to allow my soul to be trained to not be able to receive the gifts of Christ who are sent by Him to both rule and minister in His Name. Those who will not receive the Lord unless He comes to them directly and not through His delegated authorities or ministers will have a hard time with what is soon coming to pass in the earth.

Sorry for the long post, but I see this as a symptom of a bigger problem of not rightly discerning the Lord's Body and this is the way of death and not life. God has not changed His ways throughout His dealings with man, He just has progressively revealed a better understanding of His Truth and His Ways.

In the Passover Age, God chose Moses to rule and the Levites as priests and rebuked Merriam and Korah violently for thinking all were equally rulers and priests in that ministration. In fact, Aaron's rod that budded was forever preserved in the Ark in the Holy of Holies as a perpetual witness against rebels who would try to equalize all in these ministries.

Again, in the Pentecostal Age, Christ set "some" in the church as ministry gifts again demonstrating His right as the Head of the church to choose whom He will use and how He will use them. It is a part of our demonstration of submission to Him to accept joyfully both our placement in the Body and the placement of other members who are ordained to do differently than we are ordained to do. i.e. "the eye cannot say to the ear that I have no need of you".

Finally, as the Tabernacles Age approaches, most of the Body of Christ is waiting for the Rapture where all will be resurrected at the same time and we will all rule and reign with Christ. The Korah Company is still trying to preach equality of callings and giftings to take away the calling and choosing of the Lord. However, God is preparing His Overcomers who will be both called and chosen to be the Kings and Priests in the Age to come and we will all have to accept our place as either one of them or under them by the Lord.

This is a hard saying, but equality of placement and gifting is great in Communism, but a Kingdom is not run that way. In a Kingdom, authority flows from the Throne by joints and bands according to the right of the Lord to place members in the Body as He wills. I believe that my lines have fallen to me in pleasant places and I have learned the reins of the Lord in the night season. I do not need "one size fits all" to know that the Lord is fair and loves all of His children equally just because we do not all have the same place or the same function in the Kingdom. Were all Levites? Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Will all be Manifested Sons? It seems the answer is "No", but the Korah Company all respond with a rousing "Yes". There is nothing new under the sun.

Psa 16:5  The LORD is the portion of mine inheritance and of my cup: thou maintainest my lot.
Psa 16:6  The lines are fallen unto me in pleasant places; yea, I have a goodly heritage.
Psa 16:7  I will bless the LORD, who hath given me counsel: my reins also instruct me in the night seasons.

Blessings to all,

John

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I still hold to the Word of God as truth also, John. What changes is my understanding of that Word, as the Spirit quickens/resurrects it out of the darkness my carnal mind, the emnity, tries to keep it veiled in. Blessings to all..... 

[Loveroftruth]

I also believe in the word of God. Did you know some read the Bible to say that in ad70 we came into a new time?  Some see much if not all was fulfilled including the need for apostles, prophets teachers ect... Same Bible, different interpretation.

The reality is we have filters we "Read" through.... I guess those who look like they don't  follow the bible are just trying to take all the false filters off so we can start to see what God is really saying .... IMO


Blessings  :girlheart:

[Kratos]

Card,

I am glad that you do, but many if not most of those here seem not to. Some disregard the OT all together and others just what Paul wrote and many reject anything that does not line up with what they believe as being put there by men instead of by God. For example, many have determined that God never brought judgement to men like Korah and men just added it to control others.

Are you saying that my understanding given in my last post is my carnal mind talking? It is okay if that is what you see, I just want to be clear. Why do you think that Aaron's rod was one of the three items placed perpetually in the Ark? What are we to learn from the incident with Korah and his followers when they said that all of Israel were qualified as priests and by Merriam being turned leprous for questioning Moses?

Many hold these questions as not needing to be considered because they feel that these stories were just added by those who tried to portray a judgemental God in order to control the populace under the thumbs of the clergy. But what do those like us who believe in the Bible as God's Word do with God separating men from among men or resurrecting some from among the others? If one is an eye and another a hand in the Body, does that make God a respector of persons?

John

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: NO John, I absolutely was not saying that I thought it was your carnal mind saying that. I was telling you I hold to the Word, the WHOLE Word, but that He changes what MY mind thinks something in there means, FREQUENTLY.

You know me well enough by now to know how much He opens my eyes to in the OT. This is why I used to get asked all the time what denomination I was, because they thought I was Jewish, LOL. I can't help what scriptures He chooses to open to me, anymore than anyone else can; HE is the Lord of the harvest.

I personally have no doubt that all of it is HS inspired, though it is most definitely corrupted in some ways, as it was allowed to be of God, so that we would have to develop a RELATIONSHIP with the Author to understand it and have it birth the intended fruit. I'm not throwing ANY of it away, but I will yield to the Spirit if He wants to adjust my thinking on what is meant, that I read. That's my  :2c:......Blessings to you.... :thumbsup:

[Kratos]

Blessings to you, also.

Let me ask you again if you have an opinion or any light on this. If not, that is fine too. Why do you suppose that Aaron's rod that budded was placed in the Ark of the Covenant as a perpetual witness against rebels? Do you think that it is sugnificant that Aaron's rod was placed in the Holy of Holies realm which we agree is a type of the Tabernacles Age? Do you think this is a warning by God to be ready to submit to the manifested sons in that age and not to rebelled at God's choices like Korah did?

The reason I ask is many believe that the principle of some called and chosen to stand before God and man as a priest has come to an end and must be left behind with the Penecostal Age. In fact, whenever I mention on some forums that I still believe God intends to use ministers in the Age to come and that they are still valid today, I get accused of trying to prop up something that God is finished with and has passed away.

Thanks for your input,

John

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Where to begin........the rods were all engraved with the names of the patriarchs of the family. Think of it as a family tree they could hold. The rod could therefore hold the names all the way back to Adam and even then to God Himself, who formed him. So when the rod was held up, because of the principle of "being sent in the name of one greater", ie. a father/foundation/first in rank, it was the "same" as if God Himself was upright or standing there, a type of the resurrection or firstfruits.

Our authority and the FOUNDATION/beginning of our faith, is built upon the resurrection of Christ; without that chief cornerstone it all falls.

So therefore, the "rod/upright authority" that will not be able to be argued with, nor debated, is that Christ the Son of God, is going to be FULLY RESURRECTED in the people that are called to bear (and bear the ark) His name/nature.

The sons of Korah and their gainsaying spirit we were warned against, are all around us. That spirit is also in us, and must be rooted out by the power and revelation of the HS. As I have shared in previous posts, He told me the fullness was going to be in the fulfillment of the first 2 court's experiences. The portion we received was a fragmenting of Christ, earnest means portion or an apportionment of a whole. The completion is no longer a fragment but the whole, able to minister to God IN man (Holy of Holies), and not to man only (outer/physical healings and inner court/giftings of Christ realm).

Let me explain it another way He gave me. After Christ in us has gotten every enemy under His feet in us, He turns over this kingdom to the Father. This is why He called us out to lay down all the gifts, callings, titles and let Him "dry" up the "bones". The bones have no flesh on them (we died to most of self to make it this far), but they are made "dry" by allowing Him to humble us by "taking" that which we were given of Him in the inner court realm, ie. drying up the move of the water of the Spirit thru us. The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away, blessed be the name of the Lord, is our cry in this realm.

This is where we are now, whether all realize it or not, waiting on the Father to "accept" the offering that Christ made for us and thru us, as we have walked it out, as the "people of the book". How do we know when it's accepted? The veil of our garment (put ON Christ) will be rent, just as they rent their garments when someone in their family died, and the Father who was IN Christ reconciling all men unto Himself, will come suddenly into His temple. Know ye not ye are the temple of the living God? Blessings to all.....

[Kratos]

Card,

Thanks for the reply. I will have to chew on it a bit. I tend to want to loose what was of man as I have walked through many moves of God while retaining what was of God. In this case, I experienced many dealings of God to embrace the Kingdom which to me means accepting your place in the Kingdom as God has ordained the member's placement as He wills. To all of a sudden hear that there is no Kingdom order among its members, but all are called to do the same things the same way seems hard to swallow.

I started as a very proud typical American thinking we are all equal and no one is to be under anyone else ever. Then, I come face to face with scriptures like was described in the Korah rebellion and Romans 13 where every soul must learn to be subject to whatever authorities because all authorities are ordained of God and you cannot ever learn to be subject to God if you cannot be subject to His delegated authorities. Now I am to accept that this has all passed away and I am to be back where I started seeing all just equal and no order established by God among the members.

I have to ask what all of those previous dealings were for if I had it right the first time. LOL

John

[Loveroftruth]

I want to apologize for down playing or rejecting any gift God may use in another body member  :msealed: I admit my walk is many times focused on the vertical and then  sometimes horizontal as He leads...... Its a blind spot in me for sure, I know it... so please forgive me for saying that teachers are not needed....

Blessings  :girlheart:

[SeekerSA]

I think the problem comes in when teaching is equated with leadership.  In Acts, the elders were appointed to look after the administration of the saints and the Apostles continued with teaching.

The system makes leaders out of teachers and tries to make teachers out of leaders.  Both are gifts that do not necessarily coexist within one person.

Submission to authority is biblically correct, submission to teachers is not.  Probably this paradigm needs to be challenged too.  Often the Pastoral role encompasses more than just one gift of ministry.  Many excel in teaching and suck at leadership and visa versa.  Others excel in compassion and ministry but are not good leaders.  The problem comes in when the Pastor is expected to have these many hats and wear them equally well.  The Pastoral role is primarily one of tending to the sheep.

Joh 21:15  Then when they broke fast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me more than these? He said to Him, Yes, Lord, You know that I love You. He said to him, Feed My lambs.
Joh 21:16  He said to him the second time, Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me? He said to Him, Yes, Lord, You know that I love You. He said to him, Feed/Tend My sheep.
Joh 21:17  He said to him the third time, Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me? Peter was grieved because He said to him a third time, Do you love Me? And he said to Him, Lord, You know all things, You know that I love You. Jesus said to him, Feed My sheep.

Nowhere is there mention of teaching only feeding.  At best, encouragement, IMO is the closest one can draw from feeding apart from literal feeding.

Some of the best lessons I ever received were not from pastors, they were simple things and pearls that came out in casual conversation or small things I read in books.

I have seen some folk use the touch not mine anointed as a protection of themselves when they were challenged.  We are all His anointed.  People looked to Paul as a leader but for most part, he was a teacher.  I am certain the modern job description of a Pastor is far different to that of the early church.

I have more to say on this topic but will share later.

Blessings

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I didn't say there was no order John. There was order in Pentecost, though we messed it up, just like He knew we would, because it was IN PART, and destined by Him to pass away. That means the part that was not Him, was our flesh, and our flesh is as Saul; anointed flesh still dies and tries to usurp the mind of Christ every chance it gets.

But God always deals with a firstfruits offering and right now He has been dealing with us, so that He can usher in the kingdom WITHOUT END, the Spirit WITHOUT MEASURE. We all came out, but do you realize that the things we went thru to get us out, ie. the rejections, ect. were really God making them "pay" a "tithe"? We are their tithe!

What happens to the tithes? What happens to the sacrificial lamb? What happens to the ram on the day of atonement?  All these things are now SPIRITUAL, being fulfilled SPIRITUALLY, in a people, who are becoming ONE WITH THE SPIRIT.

We are being made bread to feed the nations, becoming the Word that was Spirit, made flesh, to feed the "nations" we were pulled out of.

The lamb is placed on the altar, sanctified by fire, eaten with bitter herbs/experiences, and then consumed, on our way out the doors of our own existences, which has been one of slavery to sin and the flesh.

The ram was cut up into parts, it's HEAD removed first, STRIPPED OF ALL FLESH, and then it was put on the altar, the head returning first, with all the parts commanded NOT to be touching each other, so that the fire could come up between the joints, ie. the Spirit of love which supplieth every joint.

THIS body that He is forming is one of SPIRIT, and is not going to be joined together by anything but His Spirit, no sign over the door or even over the website, is going to do it, because this is a SOVEREIGN work of God and He is raising up some not of this fold at the same time. Hmmm.......wonder what they'll look like? I bet they look like Lazarus, so steeped in death they stinketh, and He'll want us to take their graveclothes off, IN LOVE, before He closes the door to the ark. Wonder who'll they'll be? The athiests? The SDA'S? The New Agers? These are those that were REDEEMED from EVERY tribe and nation.

The Lord is in the process of redeeming the coming priesthood, the one whose MOTHER (church) gave him to the service of the Lord. The Lord said in another place, if you will not redeem the animal, break it's neck. Eli, a type of the priesthood passing away that has grown fat (full of flesh) and their eyes grown dim (can't perceive the Spirit), is falling away and about to get it's neck broken (a stiff necked generation). Tell me the Lord doesn't have a plan, and we got here by ourselves, LOL.......Blessings to all.......

[Wonderland]

One thing with what I am struggling is the idea of having a human teacher. I know that the Holy Spirit, God, and the Son should be my primary teachers, so I feel guilty for feeling as if I want a human teacher, or mentor. I used to have a mentor of sorts, but it came to a point where it was not in either of our best interests to be in contact with one another. I feel that I need another mentor who can help me through this current season of life, but I wonder if this is just my flesh wanting to be led along and be bonded.

Any thoughts?

That's a good question.  I haven't really viewed any one person as my personal teacher or mentor for a few years now.  For a while, it felt as if I was a sheet blowing in the wind - I didn't know what to think about a good many topics, even with my own study of them.  But my upbringing led me to believe that I needed to have one.  Although it would be comforting at times to have a mentor - I'm at ease with not having one. 

In some ways, it's been a blessing in disguise.  I'm comfortable with not taking a stand on an issues that aren't clear to me.  Even if someone whom I respect is promoting or teaching something that I just don't get... I leave it where it is.  The freedom to do that is more precious to me than having 'answers'. 

I know that in the past, the esteem or position I gave teachers (or self proclaimed teachers maybe) in my own mind was too high.  How do we really judge whether someone is even qualified to be a teacher these days?  Do we know them?  Do we see that their lives match up with what they teach?  Do they meet the recommendations given in scripture?  What is their motivation for them being my/your teacher?  Do they know you and care about you?  Is it 'their way or the highway'? 

I'm open to learning from just about anyone (without having to call them a teacher as described in the NT... or 'my' teacher) - and keeping that inner honesty before God and with myself if I don't understand or agree with what's being taught.

Having said that, if someone were to come into my life who bore the fruits of the Spirit, could help my understanding, and happened to call themselves a teacher - I'd be crazy not to at least hear them.  Although, I think anyone with sensitivity to the power that 'teachers' can wield probably wouldn't even call themselves one.  :laughing7: 

[SeekerSA]

Continuing with my thoughts

When we look at church as it exists today, we have a system where the pastor is not only the leader submitted to but also the intermediary and teacher.  Part of the problem exists with the Pastor trying to fulfil this role but most is apportioned to the lazy who want the Pastor to be all things to them.

I was guilty of doing this when I became intimate with my pastor.  We shared a lot and played golf together.  I substituted him for a relationship with the Father.

I think the role of Pastor must be challenging as friendship is normally something that cannot be had w/o being the pastor for that person too.

He did have one word of wisdom I never forget.  He said people get attracted to the anointing in a person's life and as a result that person becomes and idol to the said person.  They will hang on his/her every word.  I saw that in RL many times.

I remember an occasion on a Sunday when the pastor was going through a crisis and asked for ministry after his sermon.  At the end of the service, the folk started exiting and usually I was the last to leave.  I remember him standing with his whole family in the front of the church and he said hey folks we need ministry.  Sheepishly some folk went forward to minister and pray for them.  Everyone assumed others would do it and ended up no one doing it.  What an object lesson.  :mblush:

At the end of the day, the pastors are all human with failings and challenges like all of us.  Being called to ministry does not a superman make.  This is why I believe titles are things that need to be abolished, we are equal and yes there are structures/offices. 

The office of CEO is held by different people.  When a person passes onto something else, the office is filled by someone else, yet the office remains.  People see the office and not the occupant of said office, the office becomes who the people associate the person to.  There are many examples I can use.

IMO in the early church, the structures were things that happened naturally.  People need leaders and not all can be chiefs.  The structures should represent those of the community.  Our western/modern society does not really have traditional structures.  When you look at primitive cultures, you see this working in the natural.

We all have gifts that differ.  Paul is very specific of this when he says of one has a psalm, another a word etc. and all give glory to God.  The system does dampen this even if they allow 10 minutes for sharing.  Ultimately, the sermon must go on.  Program based churches are no different to program based entertainment.  Why should a pastor prepare a sermon?  The people expect it.  Formal church is no less entertainment than a 3 act play.

The best services were when the pastor said I am not preaching today, you folk are.

Blessings