Greek help with Matthew 10:28 please...

[Texas Son]

NASB - "And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (Gehenna)."
My question for you Greek scholars is the underlined word "Him". Is this word in the original Greek only assumed to be God?

The reason I asked is because of a statement I have read recently in the Works of Josephus. I have always assumed from reading that passage in the Bible that it was God who could separate the soul from the body, but in Josephus - The Jewish Wars; Book V, Chapter 12, Josephus makes this statement:

"(525) But these men, and these only, were incapable of repenting of the wickedness they had been guilty of; and separated their souls from their bodies, they used them both as if they belonged to other folks, and not to themselves. (526) For no gentle affection could touch their souls, nor could any pain affect their bodies, since they could still tear the dead bodies of the people as dogs do, and fill the prisons with those that were sick.

(emphasis mine)

ET's love using this Scripture to say that God will destroy the soul in hell. But if my seedling of a theory is correct, maybe our Lord Jesus is speaking of these men of which Josephus writes. These men of which Josephus speaks of in the final days before the Romans decimate the city were men who had lost all moral compass. They were wretched men living off the dead and dying yet standing obstinatly against Titus.

[rosered]

  Hi Texas Son ,

I also  now wonder  with your  theory , do these same types of men still exist today and have thoughout  history ?
  I have never read any books of  Josephus before , but there is some interest now .
  thanks  :icon_flower:

[Texas Son]

  Hi Texas Son ,

I also  now wonder  with your  theory , do these same types of men still exist today and have thoughout  history ?
  I have never read any books of  Josephus before , but there is some interest now .
  thanks  :icon_flower:

Hmmm...that is a good question. After the final fall of Jerusalem I believe the Kingdom of God was ushered in. The total depravity that happened between the time of our Lord's ascension, and the fall of Jerusalem was said to be a period of the "wicked generation" Matthew 12:45 and Luke 11:29. Josephus agrees with this "...no generation ever existed more prolific in crime."

Josephus is a great study, but not an easy one. I would start with the Jewish Wars. If you like history, this is a detailed look into the heart of the Jewish life and times around the first century.

[Tim B]

I'm not sure about the Greek, and you have an interesting theory. It'd be interesting to see if anybody else knows.

This is what I find interesting about this passages, and seems to actually suggest God ISN'T a God of ET OR annihilation as some people would have you think. Look what Jesus says in fullness:

Matthew 10:28-31 (New International Version)

28Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. 29Are not two sparrows sold for a penny[a]? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. 30And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31So don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

Luke also has similar thoughts:

Luke 12:4-7 (New International Version)

4"I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. 5But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him. 6Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies[a]? Yet not one of them is forgotten by God. 7Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

So, if we AREN'T supposed to be afraid of our Father in Heaven, WHO should we be afraid of? Either A) somebody other than God or B) a FALSE IMAGE of God. Basically, it's almost like Jesus is saying, "IF there is a being who can destroy/lose soul and body in Gehenna, be afraid of that. But your Father is NOT like that, so do not be afraid!"

I mean, I could be reading it wrong. But it's an interesting idea that I heard.

[jabcat]

I heard something similar as well Tim B.  I'd have to do some searching to flush it back out again.   My memory's getting tired.  :sigh:   Almost 52 and fading.   :happygrin: 

[WhiteWings]

So, if we AREN'T supposed to be afraid of our Father in Heaven, WHO should we be afraid of? Either A) somebody other than God or B) a FALSE IMAGE of God. Basically, it's almost like Jesus is saying, "IF there is a being who can destroy/lose soul and body in Gehenna, be afraid of that. But your Father is NOT like that, so do not be afraid!"

Doesn't the verse below ad some sort of condition?
Matthew 10:32-33   32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.  33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

[Texas Son]

Doesn't the verse below ad some sort of condition?
Matthew 10:32-33   32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.  33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

I don't think it is as much of a condition as it is part of the discourse Jesus is having about what it means to be a disciple. The statement about destroying "both soul and body in hell", I believe, is directed towards the state of mankind and their propensity for brutality in the short time to come after His ascension. I think Jesus is giving a warning to those who will still be alive during that tribulation period.

[Texas Son]

According to my Greek Interlinear the word used for "Him" is "ton" which means "the", or "this" or "that". It is translated in my Interlinear as "the (one)". So it seems that the translators took liberty in presenting it as "Him" referring to God. I'm not saying they are wrong, but the original does not seem to point directly to the Divine.

[sven]

I think the Greek text leaves the question open

ton dynamenon the one being able - according to the Concordant version

[WhiteWings]

AND NO YE-BE-BEING-afraid-of FROM THE  ones-FROM-KILLING  THE BODY THE YET soul NO OF-beING-ABLE TO-FROM-KILL DE-FEARING YET RATHER THE One-beING-ABLE AND soul AND BODY TO-destroy IN GEHENNA

That's exactly how it's in my interlinear. CLV is for of symbols in this verse but unfortunately I still have no idea what they mean. 

I still wonder what destry mean in this verse.
For example could 'the one' be a (teacher of a) false religion?

[rosered]

  wow , I can see it as being
  the Lord who ''protects''  and keeps or allows /lets one go [by any one doing  harm]
into destruction [loss]   
the soul which is the seat of emotions will now feel  all the elements of  separation of Light /good  for a duration of time

and suffer that   outer darkness /fear  within the soulish realm of thought and  reality.

  I do believe I have been there in some instances  personally in the past . :mshock:

[Doc]

I'd always heard that the point of that scripture is that we should fear the one who has the power over both the body and soul, over the one who can only destroy the body. It's not really about whether that one actually will destroy body and soul in Gehenna, but rather that he should be 'feared' because of the ability to do so.

[jabcat]

I'd always heard that the point of that scripture is that we should fear the one who has the power over both the body and soul, over the one who can only destroy the body. It's not really about whether that one actually will destroy body and soul in Gehenna, but rather that he should be 'feared' because of the ability to do so.

That's the one!  :thumbsup:  Able, not a promise to DO SO.

[SteveW]

Someone just mentioned this passage in a debate we are having and I admit, I was perplexed not just by it, but by the whole context.  Tim B's response really blessed me.  This whole passage full of parable/hyperbole is difficult to understand, with Jesus saying things like he came to bring the sword, not peace.  The whole passage is about the trouble and conflict that is going to come upon his followers.

The statement "be afraid" is only properly understood next to the "do not be afraid" that follows.  I think you could paraphrase Jesus as saying "there's only one thing you really have to fear, that is the one who could completely destroy and undo you.  But look, he even values the sparrows, and of course you are worth more than many sparrows!  So don't be afraid, because the only thing you have to fear is the very one who cares for you".  It is a very moving, loving and comforting passage.  It is about God's care, not his condemnation.  About security and assurance, not fear.  And certainly the point of it is not to say that God will destroy any ones soul and body in hell!

[rosered]

Wow that was 6 years ago , what become of Tim B

You have brought up  some great   thought ! 

  I know it says the fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom    and than there is more added
  the word fear is to not be afraid, but we aall are at first    ,   but respect and  be in  awe   of in the end       fear of the Lord Strong's H3374 - yir'ah
יִרְאָה
Transliteration
yir'ah
Pronunciation
yir·ä' (Key)

Part of Speech
feminine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
From יָרֵא (H3373)
TWOT Reference
907b
Outline of Biblical Usage
fear, terror, fearing

fear, terror

awesome or terrifying thing (object causing fear)

fear (of God), respect, reverence, piety

revered

I think of Abraham when this terror of Gods presence come upon Him at first dealing with him ..

  Abraham become a friend of God
  James 2 ;23 And the scripture was fulfilled which said, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed to him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.


Tim had it right to say don't be afraid of what men can do to Him or the false image of  God


  Just as the Psalms 118 :  6    ...5 From my distress I called upon the LORD; The LORD answered me and set me in a large place. 6The LORD is for me; I will not fear; What can man do to me? 7The LORD is for me among those who help me; Therefore I will look with satisfaction on those who hate me.

  the Lord  becomes your protector      as you increase by the  Holy Spirit   of   Gods teaching   us  to trust in Him with  reverence      as a Holy thing

     Having    a  lasting and building relationship     with  the True God   and seeking the praises of God and not the praises of men     

  the  Living God is about permanent     placement ,,, with men its only temporary

       

[rosered]

Here is an example of what Jesus was saying    in my opinion ,

Faith comes by hearing what the Spirit is saying  and Paul was a witness  and was preaching   to  all   that was scattered after the Cross of Jesus Christ    and still in  idol worshipping ,   but   the unbelievers  opposed him      and was trying to put him to silence about the good news of the gospel of Jesus cHRIST ..  Pauls mission was to gather into Christ all that would be willing to be  born of faith     in the new covenant   of promise   , though Jesus Christ    , saying in Acts 17 of HOW the Lord   is not very far from anyone of us    ....       


  its in Acts 18   5 When Silas and Timothy came from Macedonia, Paul devoted himself exclusively to preaching, testifying to the Jews that Jesus was the Messiah. 6 But when they opposed Paul and became abusive, he shook out his clothes in protest and said to them, "Your blood be on your own heads! I am innocent of it. From now on I will go to the Gentiles."

7 Then Paul left the synagogue and went next door to the house of Titius Justus, a worshiper of God. 8 Crispus, the synagogue leader, and his entire household believed in the Lord; and many of the Corinthians who heard Paul believed and were baptized.

9 One night the Lord spoke to Paul in a vision: "Do not be afraid; keep on speaking, do not be silent. 10 For I am with you, and no one is going to attack and harm you, because I have many people in this city." 11 So Paul stayed in Corinth for a year and a half, teaching them the word of God


For me many who are baptized''  in faith ''   in believing in Jesus Christ    , by the washing of the water of the Word of God =regeneration /seed is Christ     and renewing of the HOLY SPIRIT


Just as we are to this Day !! :HeartThrob:     

   Titus 3 ;5 4But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared,

5He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness,


but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,


6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,...

[rosered]

Someone just mentioned this passage in a debate we are having and I admit, I was perplexed not just by it, but by the whole context.  Tim B's response really blessed me.  This whole passage full of parable/hyperbole is difficult to understand, with Jesus saying things like he came to bring the sword, not peace.  The whole passage is about the trouble and conflict that is going to come upon his followers.

The statement "be afraid" is only properly understood next to the "do not be afraid" that follows.  I think you could paraphrase Jesus as saying "there's only one thing you really have to fear, that is the one who could completely destroy and undo you.  But look, he even values the sparrows, and of course you are worth more than many sparrows!  So don't be afraid, because the only thing you have to fear is the very one who cares for you".  It is a very moving, loving and comforting passage.  It is about God's care, not his condemnation.  About security and assurance, not fear.  And certainly the point of it is not to say that God will destroy any ones soul and body in hell!

Sure can see  how  , you will be persecuted for doing  any  good , just like Jesus   showed us   ,  the  taking up your cross  and following    Him ,   

No student is above His master    , for me Paul was in training learning to count it all as joy  , those heavy   judgments and lies against him , they  did the same thing to Jesus first for all His good works  those in charge  wanted to kill him   


  Matt 10 Comfort in Persecution
...23"But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes.


24"A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a slave above his master.


25"It is enough for the disciple that he become like his teacher, and the slave like his master.

If they have called the head of the house Beelzebul, how much more will they malign the members of his household!

Those are the ones considered close to blaspheming the HOLY SPIRIT,     remember them scriptures  when Jesus was healing the sick and doing many good works   and they claimed JESUS  was of  beelzebul  a false god and idol ?

UR  has many oppositions   when it come to proclaiming   the true good news of the gospel ...   

[micah7:9]

I'd always heard that the point of that scripture is that we should fear the one who has the power over both the body and soul, over the one who can only destroy the body. It's not really about whether that one actually will destroy body and soul in Gehenna, but rather that he should be 'feared' because of the ability to do so.

That's the one!  :thumbsup:  Able, not a promise to DO SO.

:thumbsup:

[rosered]

I'd always heard that the point of that scripture is that we should fear the one who has the power over both the body and soul, over the one who can only destroy the body. It's not really about whether that one actually will destroy body and soul in Gehenna, but rather that he should be 'feared' because of the ability to do so.

That's the one!  :thumbsup:  Able, not a promise to DO SO.

:thumbsup:

I totally agree with this     as well     :iagree:  :2thumbs:

[marie glen]

I'd always heard that the point of that scripture is that we should fear the one who has the power over both the body and soul, over the one who can only destroy the body. It's not really about whether that one actually will destroy body and soul in Gehenna, but rather that he should be 'feared' because of the ability to do so.

That's the one!  :thumbsup:  Able, not a promise to DO SO.

:thumbsup:

I totally agree with this     as well     :iagree:  :2thumbs:

Me too! Me too!! :))