Literalism and the Salvation of All.

[eaglesway]

In my journey to a full assurance of faith concerning the ultimate reconciliation and salvation of all, I began as a literalist from a Pentecostal/Charismatic background.

The thing that arrested me, after being presented with the UR paradigm from the scriptures was this.

There are a lot of scriptures that overtly declare that all will be gathered into one in Christ, subjected to Christ, reconciled to God through Christ, etc.

Those verses, Eph 1:9-11, Col 1:15-20, 1 Cor 15:22-28, Romans 11:31-36, John 12:32, Rev 21:5, when looked at together, were an inescapable network of understanding for me.

When viewing Phil 2: 9-11 integrated within the context of those verses.....

"For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

.....it was no longer possible for me to conclude that God would cause all to bow the knee and confess the Lordship of Christ to the Father's glory- just before casting them into the lake of fire for eternal torment or annihilation. It became apparent to me that either those verses were all true in context with one another and without exception, or the scriptures themselves were without a measure of intergrity that qualified them as the "word of God/logos". God cannot, "reconcile all", "gather all things into one in Christ" and become "all in all", if multitudes are tormented forever or annihilated.

A true literalist does not have the option of deciding which verses are literal and which verses are not. Even the metaphors of scripture, the prophetic images and the parables, must integrate with the entire body of the scriptures, without contradiction. Any apparent contradiction provides a reason to press into further understanding, into deeper ground, until the paradox resolves, opening up into a new paradigm.

The scriptures interpret the scriptures, and if their integrity is not absolute, than they are of no value whatsoever for foundational truth and doctrine.

According to Paul, God will become all in all.....

1 Cor 15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet........28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

Clearly, after every knee has bowed all, including the enemies who have been subjected, on earth, under the earth, in heaven- God will be ALL IN ALL.

......... For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen(Rom 11:36)


Clearly, Jesus declared this Himself, from earth,

John 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

and from heaven,

Rev 21:5 And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." And He *said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true." Then He said to me, "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end".

This unavoidable conclusion led me to investigate the seeming paradoxes between the views of ET/ED/UR by studying the translation issues surrounding "hell/sheol/gehenna", "olam/aion/age/forever/everlasting", with the help of writers who had gone before(Jukes, Hanson) and a good lexicon, the resolution of all the seeming objections were resolved.

The keys to unlock the matrix of the wisdom of God, "the mystery", have always been there- they have just been obscured by the foibles of men. The scriptures, properly translated, taken in full context with one another, provide the Great Resolution :)

Eph 1:9-11 In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the gathering together into one of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.

Col 1:19,20 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

Eph 4:10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.

Whatever the process, whatever the mists obscuring some of the details, 'seen through a glass darkly" or not, the scriptures make it clear that God will become ALL IN ALL, and that this was His plan from the beginning. No true literalist can deny it, once presented with all the evidence.

For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. Rom 8:19-21

For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. Rom 11:31

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 1 Cor 15:22

[Lazarus Short]

 :iagree: :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny:

[marie glen]

I agree with Laz(arus)!  :nod:

  ...  :Chinscratch: what you're saying is, are we going to take God at His Word, or not!? I think you are very right!

The "all in all"..

I never learned ET. My first questioning of `the church` came early. Now that I was saved, and learning about the love of Jesus, what should my attitude toward others be? Should I love them, appreciate them, encourage them.. or should I have a bit of a stern demeanor, so they will know they are not yet `right with the Lord`. This last, of course, was what I was picking up/intuiting from church and church membership, or rather attendance.. But Jesus was, it seemed to me, in favor of love! I'll admit I'm from a drop out generation and have a problem with authority figures, so opting out of organized religion wasn't a hard choice to make, but now I see it as a blessing and freedom to seek God in His word.. Are we going to believe what God says? Or what someone else says God says? To me that's aLways the question. "Study to show yourself approved as a workman, fully equipped.."

I don't remember how I learned about the Strong's concordance, one for the KJ, and one for the NIV/NASB, but I'll never forget when I looked up the word "forever".. I thought surely the concordance had made a mistake.. until it penetrated that it was "for" "ever" (dah). Then I stumbled across "aion"..

Early on I read some Watchtower material on the topic of 'hell', that was very helpful..

Besides, hell, was/is so totally illogical. I think I first came across the idea of UR years ago when I was online via a webtv.. and in a webtv discussion group I met someone who would refer to "tentmaker", which I saved the link but never really visited much for many years.. I remembered his name for a long time, but now it escapes me (dang!).. I don't know if he came to the forums or not.. I think he used his real first and last name..

I think it's encouraging to hear of others journey to UR, how the Lord has led to UR, and then each one presenting a slightly different aspect.. A new facet.. I can't speak for anyone else, but it gives me strength to be more open and verbal about UR, albeit low key (not aggressive!)

..Good reinforcement.. strengthens our (UR) conviction.. I love UR apologetics! :dsunny:

[eaglesway]

 :iagree:

[micah7:9]

 :iagree: with all said :dsunny: :dsunny:

[Tom]

I know there's been debate on this forum about literal vs. figurative, and I've said before that I think scripture is like all other literature in the sense that it should be interpreted literally unless something can't be. I realize different folks interpret scripture differently though. I know there's disagreement between those who identify with Covenant Theology vs. Dispensationalism and among all the denominations. I think human philosophy distorts our perception of the truth of scripture, but I'm not interested in debating about interpretation or theology. Maybe God is showing you something that I don't see and vice versa. I agree it's good to hear about how folks came to an understanding of universal reconciliation. I also agree about questioning the orthodox theology early because it didn't seem right to me even though I didn't know about universal reconciliation until many years later and wasn't even familiar with scripture yet, and it was easy for me to walk away from it too because back then I came to see all institutions as hypocritical. Regarding me becoming aware of universal reconciliation, it seemed like a mysterious accident when it happened, but then I gradually realized it was caused by holy spirit. I was checking out a die hard King James Version website one day because that's what I started reading scripture with thinking it must be the best because it seemed to be the most popular, but then I got mysteriously bounced to another site and started reading some strange new information I'd never heard about before. I thought it had to be false doctrine because I never heard about it in church, but after awhile I realized that's because it threatens the worldly power of orthodox theology so much that it's condemned as heresy which folks used to get burned at the stake for back in the old days. I read as much information online about this new idea as I could looking for some kind of flaw in the logic, but I gradually began to realize it had to be true because it was all verified by scripture some which I wasn't aware of because I'd been reading the wrong translation. I was mad that I never heard about it in church, but I came to understand why. It's spooky that the religious system that supposedly represents Christianity is actually the most effective deception of Satan used to dishonor God by lying about his ultimate plan, but deception is Satan's method of operation because it's the one that works best. Satan transfigured into a messenger of light whose servants are transfigured as dispensers of righteousness, wolves disguised as sheep, are actually depriving you of the truth of God's love for all his creatures. I don't want to start any trouble about how some folks use the word "church" when they really mean the "ecclesia," but my first indoctrination to spiritual matters was in the Roman Catholic Church. I left it as soon as I was old enough to escape, and I then proceeded to seek the truth through the investigation of various chemical substances and human philosophies because the "church" seemed to not be the answer. I had an out of body experience in the light, and, when I found myself back in my body, I was compelled to look in the drawer beside the hospital bed in which there was nothing but a Gideon Bible. I wasn't familiar with scripture, but I began to read it. I was overwhelmed with emotion at the realization that God was speaking to me through the words in that book. That's how I got convinced that scripture isn't just a fairy tale or a collection of hallucinations of some tripped out monks. Then it was years later that I found out about universal reconciliation. I haven't doubted it since then even though there's been plenty of persecution by fellow Christians about it. I've experienced just as much hatred from believers because of it as I have from atheists for just believing in God. I've also seen a lot of bad vibes between folks of different schools of theology even among some that believe in universal reconciliation. I think this is all crazy, but some folks seem to get really tense when their belief system is questioned. I try to keep an open mind about everything because I'd like to learn something new if possible and even something that turns what I believe upside down if necessary to reveal an aspect of the truth that I haven't seen before. I think that's what coming to an understanding of universal reconciliation has been for all of us. I think anybody that thinks they have all the answers is in for a rude awakening when God throws you a new curve to humble you. So I just try to stay humble and listen to whatever everybody else has to say even if I may not see things quite the way they do, and I don't always comment even if I don't because much of the time it's something I've already been through before. So I'll just kick back and see what develops in the conversation. I figure, if we all believe Christ died for our sins and was roused from the dead, then all the other stuff will work itself out in the long run. I don't like being classified according to a specific theology. I just think something like universal reconciliation is part of the truth of scripture that some folks haven't come to understand yet probably because it's been hidden from them by the orthodox establishment which I think is what happened to most folks here on this site. So, even though I see some things differently that have been discussed on this forum in various threads, I agree with the ideas in the title of the original post of this thread.     

[eaglesway]

Most of us see things somewhat differently around the edges, Tom :o)

The purpose of the post is just an apologetic approach to UR for literalists. A literalist is not necessarily someone who doesnt receive metaphorical meanings and prophetic images, they just tend to define truth impirically, extending from the literal scriptures. I have been working on a short book focused towards fundamentalists and literalists- Baptists, Pentecostals and the like, to express the truth of UR in ways that they will have difficulty refuting without refuting their own beliefes about the scriptures.

Hem them in by their own threads and needles so to speak LOL.

Hence a thread about literalism and UR :o)

[Tom]

I agree that interpreting language literally in scripture or otherwise doesn't negate the purpose of some figurative language integrated with it, but I think interpreting too much figuratively misses the true meaning of the language. I think that's what causes a lot of disagreement among schools of theology. That's why, at some point, I just prefer to agree to disagree rather than cause too much tension among fellow believers. I think you're plan is a good one.

[Dandelion]

I believe we can take the Bible literally, despite the apparent contradictions.

A wise man, said this to me once, regarding interpreting the Bible:

"How can all these be true at the same time?

I am not sure. I tend to think we are often discussing things from different perspectives, for instance, the perspective from within our mortal life time is one view. The perspective from God, who exists outside of time, or rather, time exists within Him, is another view. Like a bubble within a bubble, the finite ages and worlds that are presently veiled to the wonders of eternity, restrain our understanding, as Paul says, "seen through a glass darkly", or as John says, "Beloved, we know not yet what we shall be".

[sheila]

   as He forms us in His image and likeness....it is written..when we see Him face to face..we shall be just like Him.

[jabcat]

I tend to think we are often discussing things from different perspectives, for instance, the perspective from within our mortal life time is one view. The perspective from God, who exists outside of time, or rather, time exists within Him, is another view. Like a bubble within a bubble, the finite ages and worlds that are presently veiled to the wonders of eternity, restrain our understanding, as Paul says, "seen through a glass darkly", or as John says, "Beloved, we know not yet what we shall be".

Amen, good post.

[JonesHenry]

You know i did find some interesting stuf while digging for the Hebrew word Darone

Doesn't Daniel 12:2 say some will face "everlasting contempt"?

"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." Daniel 12:2

This verse is used constantly to prove the Traditional view. However, upon closer examination of the text, it is nowhere to be found. The Hebrew word here for "contempt" is "darone." It is very important to note that the only other time it is used in all of Tenach (The Hebrew Bible) is in Isaiah 66:24, which was discussed earlier. In Isaiah 66:24, those who have "darone" ("contempt" or "disgust") are the believers who go out and look upon the dead bodies (not living souls) of those who have been turned into ashes–cremated (2 Peter 2:6, Malachi 4:3)

This is both very interesting and disturbing at the same time :eek:


Jesus also says WIDE IS THE GATE THAT LEADS TO DESTRUCTION!

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and MANY enter through it.

Matthew 7:13


The literal word being Apoleia...to DESTROY!


http://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/7-13.htm


You know...this reminds me of the very SAME MAN that said that the sould that sinneth...it shall DIE!

"The SOUL that sinneth, IT SHALL DIE! The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."

Ezekiel 18:20



DIE...and then be resurrected?



"'However, I will RESTORE the fortunes of SODOM and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them,

Ezekiel 16:53



Try to make sense of that?? Personally...i believe the key is PRAYER! We should not trust the "bible" We should trust GOD on this issue, and not to follow "traditions of men" They have gotten us into quite a lot of trouble to begin with!

http://egregores.blogspot.fi/2010/10/augustine-in-defense-of-torturing.html



Like trying to "reason" with Paul.



"For the wages of sin is DEATH but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Romans 6:23



You know...he does say a lot of other stuff too :girlheart:



"That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of ALL MEN, and ESPECIALLY those who believe."

1 Timothy 4:10



"For as in Adam ALL DIE, so in Christ will ALL BE MADE ALIVE!"

1 Corinthians 15:22



"Hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his SPIRIT MIGHT BE SAVED saved on the day of the Lord!"

1 Corinthians 5:5



One possibility...God CHOSE to be the "author of confusion" so we would put our TRUST IN HIM and turn TOWARDS HIM and reject simply following a "manual to heaven" in some fancy book written by the "pros of translation"



I think what is important to UNDERSTAND here, is that the Hebews believed BOTH in dead, and in RESURRECTION after death! If death is truly ETERNAL then why are all these people still outside the city at the end of the Book?



"Behold, I come quickly. My reward is with me, to repay to each man according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who do his commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city. OUTSIDE ARE THE dogs the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. I, JESUS have sent my angel to testify these things to you for the assemblies. I am the root and the offspring of David; the Bright and Morning Star."

Revelation 22:12-16



A happy ending, i dont think so! Are there dead bodies still outside the city? If so, then GODS ALL CONSUMING FIRE apparently didn't finish them off very well.



"For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God."

4:24



"for our "God is a consuming fire."

Hebrews 12:29



Maybe God is literally "running out of steam" No heat left in the old furnace?

(http://inapcache.boston.com/universal/site_graphics/blogs/bigpicture/kawahnight_12_08/k15_00000023.jpg)



Or was Jesus just talking about there ashes?



"Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ASHES UNDER THE SOULS OF YOUR FEET  on the day when I act," says the LORD Almighty!"

Malachi 4:3



Are ashes HUMAN!? Do you call ashes your stepping on dogs, sorcerers, sexually immoral, murderers, idolaters...



Maybe if your mentally i'll? I dont think Jesus is mentally i'll, so i reject this 7th day adventist stance!



Personally...i tend to lean towards christian universalism. We should be both careful and CAUTIOUS about following "traditions of men" and fancy Hebrew and Aramic translators. Someone is LYING here, and i bet it's one of those "I've been studying hebrew for 20-years" translators. Someone IS NOT telling the truth!




P.S;It apears this Hebrew "expert" actually spelled hes Holy books name entirely WRONG! It's not Tenach but Tanakh!

http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/63255/jewish/The-Bible-with-Rashi.htm



I have problems finding the word" Darone" where he said it was supposed to be!

http://biblehub.com/text/isaiah/66-24.htm



Looks to me like some kind of a Masoretic FRAUD! It's a reference to the masoretes who wrote there hebrew "bible" hundreds of years after Jesus death! This looks like another similar fraud. Why am i not suprised?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masoretic_Text

It would be similar to us looking at the burned corpse of Adolf Hitler. We will ALWAYS have contempt or disgust for him. Even in eternity.

Eternity! Really?


"He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death' or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has PASSED AWAY!"

Revelation 21:4


Or...

In Isaiah 66:24, those who have "darone" ("contempt" or "disgust") are the believers who go out and look upon the dead bodies (not living souls) of those who have been turned into ashes–cremated

So the believers go out of the city of New Jerusalem(her gates will never be shut) to look down on a bunch of ashes, and actually RECOGNIZE them as bodies? Ever after they have been "totally consumed and burned"


And then JESUS of all people talks about these ASHES is if they were still VILE human beings LIVING IN THERE SINS and still ALIVE!!?



Looks like another masoretic FRAUD!



Well...atleast he put some EFFORT into it!