when I bought my concordant literal new testament

marie glen · March 24, 2015, 05:54:40 PM

:hiya: when I bought my concordant literal new testament (from StudyShelf.com, thru their amazon, u.s. outlet) surprise! in the package they included some UR information! And also an additional book called "the church in ruins" by Clyde L Pilkington, jr. "brief thoughts on II Timothy, paul's last letter to the church".

I have been reading it and am on page 69/70 where it points out that in Ephesus, where Timothy was, some had wandered from the faith, 2 Tim 2:16-18, saying the resurrection had already occurred and thus they had overturned the faith of some.. here's how it's written -

"The resurrection was a vital truth of anticipation taught by Paul, without which resulted in vanity (1 cor 15) and now `vain babblings`. The resurrection had become meaningless (vain) to them. They did not look to resurrection: instead the extent of their faith was now that they would go to heaven when they die, or perhaps that Christ would return and save the elect and throw the non-elect in hell."

If so, it's pretty close to paganism's "the good 'go to heaven' and the bad to punishment... (some of the ancient "baals" included fire)

Needless to say, I found this bit about denying/downplaying the resurrection as perhaps a transition to the 'go to heaven or hell' doctrine, as very interesting..

Before buying the Concordant Literal New Testament, I had bought a Bible "Lamsa's translation from the Aramaic of the Pecrapta" which I found disappointing as it uses "for ever and ever" and "hell" although, thankfully, in the old testament sheol is still sheol.. but I was disappointed in the translation.

And I read a post by Tom who suggested the Concordant version.. It is replacing my word for word N.T. Lexicon put out by the Watchtower which I've had for many years, which I trust more than the "NASB - NIV Parallel New Testament" i have but rarely use.. THANKS TOM! And what a pleasant surprise the UR tracts were!! :banana: :dsunny:

The tracts were also www.StudyShelf.com (powered by Pilkington & sons), with one from www.SalvationofAll.com :smile:

P.S - i don't totally agree with the book, however, but i seldom do..

bushy · March 24, 2015, 07:17:35 PM

Needless to say, I found this bit about denying/downplaying the resurrection as perhaps a transition to the 'go to heaven or hell' doctrine, as very interesting.

I know for me it was quite enlightening to come to see that the resurrection applied to everyone no matter what their spiritual condition was even though at different times. It messed up the idea that everyone at death goes either to heaven or hell and helped me to understand how everyone would eventually be saved. This was after I was completely convinced about the truth of UR which happened all at once for me but I still had lots of questions to work through. So yes, it was a help in making the transition.

Tom · March 24, 2015, 08:03:28 PM

Marie, I'm not sure why you got your Concordant Version from a middle man rather than the source, but I think you'll appreciate it. I was disappointed when I checked out the Aramaic to English translations too for the same reasons you said. I started reading scripture with the King James Version because it seemed to be the most popular. Years later I became more concerned with accuracy in translation, and I switched to Young's Literal Translation. I later found out about a few things it shares with the King James Version, and I then found the Concordant Version. I've used it ever since. There's no perfect translation because something is always lost in translation, but the Concordant Version seems to be the most accurate to me.

marie glen · March 24, 2015, 08:27:38 PM

Tom, when I read your advice, I googled it and found them listed on Amazon :smile: and for a good price..

Thanks Bushy! I think it was a help and perhaps the beginning of the 'go to heaven or hell' teaching.. At least the earliest I've come across, til later when some church fathers seem to have believed it(?) but I haven't zeroed in on which church fathers..

Jordanwhite · March 25, 2015, 07:23:36 AM

Marie, I've found the belief of life in death (the immortal soul), and thus specific places for said "dead" (who are really still alive), as early as Justin Martyr. That's just with a little research. The belief existed much earlier of course, but I have little idea how early it became populating Christians.

Tom · March 25, 2015, 04:08:48 PM

I think soul is the sensation resulting from the combination of an organic body with breath or spirit.

"Yahweh Elohim formed the human out of soil from the ground, and He blew into his nostrils the breath of life; and the human became a living soul." (Genesis 2:7)

"The soul of the flesh, it is in the blood." (Leviticus 17:11)

"The soul of all flesh, it is its blood." (Leviticus 17:14)

I've read that immortality of the soul was the philosophy of Plato adopted by the Roman Catholic Church to support its doctrine of torture forever in fire.

"The living know that they shall die, but the dead know nothing." (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

I think scripture is clear that all humans are living souls who are dying but will eventually be given immortality in spiritual bodies at different times. Christ has already been vivified. When Christ meets believers in the air, we will be vivified with spiritual bodies to be alive through the last two eons and beyond, but unbelievers will be vivified when death is abolished at the consummation of the eons.

"There are bodies celestial as well as bodies terrestrial. But a different glory, indeed, is that of the celestial, yet a different that of the terrestrial, another glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars, for star is excelling star in glory. Thus also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is roused in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor; it is roused in glory. It is sown in infirmity; it is roused in power. It is sown a soulish body; it is roused a spiritual body. If there is a soulish body, there is a spiritual also. Thus it is written also, The first man, Adam, "became a living soul:" the last Adam a vivifying Spirit. But not first the spiritual, but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual. The first man was out of the earth, soilish; the second Man is the Lord out of heaven. Such as the soilish one is, such are those also who are soilish, and such as the Celestial One, such are those also who are celestials. And according as we wear the image of the soilish, we should be wearing the image also of the Celestial. Now this I am averring, brethren, that flesh and blood is not able to enjoy an allotment in the kingdom of God, neither is corruption enjoying the allotment of incorruption. Lo! a secret to you am I telling! We all, indeed, shall not be put to repose, yet we all shall be changed, in an instant, in the twinkle of an eye, at the last trump. For He will be trumpeting, and the dead will be roused incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal put on immortality. Now, whenever this corruptible should be putting on incorruption and this mortal should be putting on immortality, then shall come to pass the word which is written, Swallowed up was Death by Victory. Where, O Death, is your victory? Where, O Death, is your sting?" (1 Corinthians 15:40-55)

"I am charging you in the sight of God, Who is vivifying all, and of Jesus Christ, Who testifies in the ideal avowal before Pontius Pilate, that you keep this precept unspotted, irreprehensible, unto the advent of our Lord, Christ Jesus, which, to its own eras, the happy and only Potentate will be showing: He is King of kings and Lord of lords, Who alone has immortality, making His home in light inaccessible, Whom not one of mankind perceived nor can be perceiving, to Whom be honor and might eonian! Amen!" (1 Timothy 6:16)

"Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all." (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)

marie glen · March 26, 2015, 05:22:59 AM

Great verses! Especially "Who alone has immortality" Just one of the many which should 'say it all' :smile:

..."Justin Martyr" thanks! :Chinscratch: will be researching him..

Jordanwhite · March 27, 2015, 05:18:04 PM

Tom, it's sad that people deny the Gospel by denying the reality of death. He have shared great verses. Even further, man is not literally a soul. The soul is a phenomena, a result from man (dust) being given life (spirit). We can't say that an attribute of a man, is literally the man himself. It's like saying "turn on the lights" when we mean "the light bulbs." We've called the light bulb by its function. The light bulb is a good analogy for the soul. You have the material body (the light bulb) powered by the unseen current, which produces the light which is not a part of the bulb or the bulb. When a thing is represented by something closely associated with it, but neither it nor a part of it, the figure of meto'nymy is being used.

Tom · March 27, 2015, 11:49:28 PM

I understand what you're saying, and the idea of the light bulb is a good one that I'm familiar with. I would continue the analogy by saying that the soul, the light in the bulb, the body, becomes unseen when the spirit, the power of life, returns to the source, God, because "hades," literally "unperceived" or "unseen," is simply the unseen state of dead souls despite the fact that it was translated with the Old English word "hell" that has morphed into the horror story of orthodox theology that distorts the concept of death to support its lie of torture forever in fire of immortal souls. Scripture says the human is a soul, has a soul, and the soul dies. Scripture also says that all humans will eventually be given immortality in spiritual bodies, but that's different than the distorted concept of immortality of the soul which is a direct contradiction to scripture saying the soul dies. Humans are living souls who are dying, but death will be abolished at the consummation of the eons. It is then that even unbelievers who experienced the second death-the lake of fire will be given immortality. That's the truth of scripture that orthodox theology contradicts with its propaganda of irrational fear supported by forgery in the translation of scripture in popular versions which is why it's important to read an accurate translation such as the one referred to in the original post. I realize that different people have different versions of scripture they prefer, but I think it's necessary to read one that translates some key words accurately or the whole story changes. "Gehenna" is not "hell," and an "eon" is not or even all the "eons" are not "eternity."

marie glen · March 28, 2015, 04:46:46 AM

I've heard a lot of people say that by reading and reading the Word, prayerfully of course, revealledd ugh to them.. It's the word that penetrates.. Thatt's very encouraging! :smile: P,S, dang I hate tablets!

Tom · March 28, 2015, 11:21:04 AM

1 John 5:7 is another example of obvious forgery perpetrated by orthodox theology. It caused me to realize Young's Literal Translation was translated from the same corrupt Latin manuscript as the King James Version.

marie glen · March 28, 2015, 07:54:31 PM

I noticed that verse in the concordant literal too..

1 John 5:7 - Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

because three are who are testifying in the heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these -- the three -- are one;

1 John 5:7 - Concordant Literal New Testament

for the Spirit is the truth, (seeing) that three are testifying, the spirit, and the water, and the blood, and the three are for the one (thing).

"One" according to Strong's is "heis" "a primary numeral",.. the question I guess is, is it "for one" or "are one" and how to know for sure, I don't know.. or does it even matter?

"pneuma" - "breath" also translated as "the" spirit in many places; "hudato" - "water ..like rain" and "haima" - "literally blood, figuratively the juice of grapes"

But since it is the spirit, the water, and the blood bearing witness (speaking).. if they "are" one, it's the spirit, water and blood that is.. (they speak the same thing?)

so "three testifying in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit", as the King James and Young's Literal says it, does seem to lack accuracy! Whether deliberate or simply human imperfection (preconception) I wouldn't know..

I still read other versions tho, usually two or three.. the Concordant doesn't always flow as smoothly. And the KJ for memory's sake and finding a verse in Strong's from memory

The watchtower parallel version NT i have shows the greek words also, with the translation directly below each word, which is kind of nice, except it's written in the greek letters :doh:

My biggest disappointment has been some of the Strong's Concordant, good for so much, but still falls into the lines of 'hell'. But truth be told, I'm even a little suspicious of "the unseen", although I will admit, those that are gone, we do not see.. 1 thes 4, "sleeping in Christ" is what it means to me, but I'd love to know what words were used originally, and if often/usually hades, perhaps what hades meant to Israel, not today, but back then..

When the earth opened up and Korah(?) and Co fell into the earth, and when Israel spoke of death and sheol, I lean toward thinking they did not think of it as living on..

Daniel 12:13

But go thy way till the end be: for you shall rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Tom · March 28, 2015, 08:41:28 PM

Sis, what I was referring to is the added words in 1 John 5:7 in popular versions thanks to pressure from the Roman Catholic Church on Erasmus to try to produce something to verify the Trinity. Earlier Greek manuscripts didn't contain those words.

"6 This is He Who is coming through water and blood and spirit--Jesus Christ--not in the water only, but in the water and in the blood. And the spirit it is which is testifying, for the spirit is the truth, 7 seeing that three there are that are testifying, 8 the spirit, and the water, and the blood, and the three are for the one thing." (1 John 5:6-8 Concordant Literal New Testament)

"6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness , because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." (1 John 5:6-8 King James Version)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma_Johanneum

Remember that Strong's is the concordance of the King James Version. I prefer the Keyword Concordance at the end of the Concordant Literal New Testament, which "doesn't always flow as smoothly," as you say, because it's purpose is to be literal and concordant. I read the King James for years before giving it up for the sake of accuracy. There are words in it that have been intentionally changed or added to promote the doctrine of orthodox theology which contradicts the truth of scripture. So I gladly sacrifice smooth flowing language for the sake of truth. You get used to the Concordant Version after awhile and appreciate having a more accurate translation. Regarding your reference to "sheol," it's the Hebrew correspondent of the Greek "hades." I'm not sure why you're "suspicious" of "unseen." Here's some information that may be helpful.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/TheSoulAndTheUnseen.html

sheila · March 29, 2015, 08:01:56 PM

men like to come up with a lot of 'understandings' and 'put God in a box' where they may 'comprehend' Him...and think they

have it all figured out. The problem when they do this.is that the light gets brighter and brighter...and there is

nothing concealed[unseen] that will not be revealed.

Jesus said..'in a little while you will not see me[unseen],and yet in a little while,you will see me" the beast that is,is not/unseen,yet is"

we are not to judge by the appearance of the flesh[what is seen/unseen] but as the Spirit reveals.

sometimes it has to be enough that Christ the resurrection that is a quickening spirit that lights the candle of every man..

whose flesh did not see see corruption[even though He went to the realm of the unseen] sometimes it must be enough

that the spirit of Christ in man's mortal body must change it..and that which is mortal must put on immortality..that which was

terrestrial[of the dust/mortal] must become celestial to return unto the Father[His very presence]

is man's salvation 'by My Spirit" from corruption/death?

those who believe in me shall never die....even if you do die,ye shall live..........some never die..they shall be changed..even

Paul by the Holy spirit furnished this second witness in accord with the Word of God come in flesh...I tell ye a secret[something

revealed that had been unseen] not all shall die..but we shall all be changed.

those that do die..shall live..it shall be like a sleep...a temporary 'little death"just as Jesus 'tasted death for every man"Jesus said

that the Father had granted Him life in himself[resurrection is a plague of life unto death/O'Death I shall be thy plague!!]

I AM the Resurrection is the kingdom of darkness's torment and plague...what death thinks he possesses is taken away from

him[talent hid it in the earth/unseen] it is given to Him who possessed the 10 /He who has[life] is given more[abundantly]

.....and He throws it into the LOF[death thrown into Lof] the LOF second death has never been as of yet.......we were given a

temporal example of it in the destruction of Sodom and Gommorah as an example[yet we know Sodom and Gomarah will

return unto their former state/their temporal destruction was used to exhibit the LOF judgement/destruction of death and all

adversaries against the eternal life[there will be no end to the increasing of His Kingdom...a mountain of life that fills the whole

earth=All in Adam raised up into the eternal life in Christ image/pattern.

as exhibited by the resurrection of Lazarus..the young maiden etc..the healings exhibited of blind/deaf/leprous/lame and their

restoration to this temporal/terrestrial realm...please know that the spirit in man shall be fully restored and we shall be as angels

the children of God and dwell in the celestials.[you must be born again from above]

. If the spirit and power of God in Christ can resurrect back to

the terrestrial..can it not also resurrect back[restore] to the celestial[before Abraham,I was] I am returning unto My Father and

yours....

call no man your Father. You have been with me from the beginning...Those God fore knew,He also fore-ordained to be conformed

into the image of His son.

There is nothing hidden/concealed/unseen that will not be revealed/we can not judge by the appearance of our eyes..before

the time He reveals "our life" which is hidden[unseen] in Christ.

marie glen · March 30, 2015, 10:58:01 PM

Quote from: Tom on March 28, 2015, 08:41:28 PM
Sis, what I was referring to is the added words in 1 John 5:7 in popular versions thanks to pressure from the Roman Catholic Church on Erasmus to try to produce something to verify the Trinity. Earlier Greek manuscripts didn't contain those words.

"6 This is He Who is coming through water and blood and spirit--Jesus Christ--not in the water only, but in the water and in the blood. And the spirit it is which is testifying, for the spirit is the truth, 7 seeing that three there are that are testifying, 8 the spirit, and the water, and the blood, and the three are for the one thing." (1 John 5:6-8 Concordant Literal New Testament)

"6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness , because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." (1 John 5:6-8 King James Version)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma_Johanneum

Remember that Strong's is the concordance of the King James Version. I prefer the Keyword Concordance at the end of the Concordant Literal New Testament, which "doesn't always flow as smoothly," as you say, because it's purpose is to be literal and concordant. I read the King James for years before giving it up for the sake of accuracy. There are words in it that have been intentionally changed or added to promote the doctrine of orthodox theology which contradicts the truth of scripture. So I gladly sacrifice smooth flowing language for the sake of truth. You get used to the Concordant Version after awhile and appreciate having a more accurate translation. Regarding your reference to "sheol," it's the Hebrew correspondent of the Greek "hades." I'm not sure why you're "suspicious" of "unseen." Here's some information that may be helpful.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/TheSoulAndTheUnseen.html

I quite agree! the idea of `soul` as inherent immortality is, imo, not supported in God's Word, and is the foundation of the 'hell' doctrine.. and therefor is a real world of trouble!!

I do love my new Concordant version NT, but still use other versions as I like to read what I'm studying or reading more than once, in more than one way.. but this may be not ideal for a new believer, who is not well acquainted with the notorious inaccurate (word) translations! (And how sad is thAt! whether humanly intentional, or demon misdirected, or both - we will know for sure, for "nothing shall remain hidden")

I've been known to paraphrase and mix versions (to be most understandable) when discussing God's word.. using words like agelasting, while explaining the inaccurate translation; and using death or the grave, instead of hell or even hades. I have a persistent image of the place of the dead as the grave, and the tombstone is the head of the bed.. :laughing7:

marie glen · March 30, 2015, 11:21:31 PM

Quote from: sheila on March 29, 2015, 08:01:56 PM
men like to come up with a lot of 'understandings' and 'put God in a box' where they may 'comprehend' Him...and think they

have it all figured out. The problem when they do this.is that the light gets brighter and brighter...and there is

nothing concealed[unseen] that will not be revealed.

Imagine! we silly humans thinking we can comprehend and figure Him out! or put Him in a box we can then feel we understand all there is to understand about Him
:LH:

Quote from: sheila on March 29, 2015, 08:01:56 PM
There is nothing hidden/concealed/unseen that will not be revealed/we can not judge by the appearance of our eyes..before

the time He reveals "our life" which is hidden[unseen] in Christ.

:thumbsup: :banana:

eaglesway · March 30, 2015, 11:37:30 PM

:2c:

The soul is created in the image of God, after His likeness, and is therefore, inherently immortal.

The immortality of the soul is not the foundation of ET doctrine.

The foundation of ET doctrine is the intransagent will of man portrayed within the limited mercy of God.

One reason all are reconciled is that all are created immortal......"For from Him and Through Him and To Him are all things." Nothing is lost. The whole creation will be "set free from futility".

But even if one should disagree.....even if I am in error...... it has no bearing on the truth of ultimate universal reconciliation, the salvation of all, anymore than Arminianism of Calvinism, or any other peripheral issue does.

Here's why none of the little boxes matter

V V V

http://tentmaker.org/forum/discussions-on-universal-salvation/literalism-and-the-salvation-of-all/#new

marie glen · March 31, 2015, 05:41:47 AM

Yep, one day we will all see all things clearly, but now we see through a glass darkly.. or that is, kind of hazy :laughing7:

I try not to be too set in my way of thinking, as I do not know at which points I may be accurate and which ones not so accurate.. but by continuing in Him and in His Word, all things will come to light, and what doesn't during this life time will later..
:smile:

sheila · March 31, 2015, 06:37:54 AM

Eccl 3;11 He has made everything beautiful in it's time. HE HAS ALSO SET ETERNITY IN THE HEARTS OF MEN.....

EVEN THOUGH THEY CAN NOT FATHOM WHAT GOD HAS DONE FROM BEGINNING TO END

eaglesway · March 31, 2015, 08:52:31 PM

It'll all come out in the wash :O)

Tom · April 01, 2015, 12:26:18 AM

The problem I have with immortality of the soul is that it seems to say there really wasn't a resurrection. I'm surprised that a non-Trinitarian would think that. I believe we will all eventually have immortality in spiritual bodies but after we've been dying our whole lives even if some are snatched away before they die. That wouldn't be because they have or are immortal souls but because they've been changed to spiritual bodies. I think it can be hard to understand how God chose us before we were even born before the disruption of the world if we didn't exist in some form, but I think the far distant past is the same as the present and the future for God because he transcends time and space. That may also be hard for us to understand, but I think time is relative to the eons. The eons will come to an end, and then I guess, if there's anything such as time, we will experience a different perception of it than what we do now. If there will be no death, I guess there won't be an aging process involving corruption of the flesh because there will be no more corruption in spiritual bodies. I think scripture is clear that we're created living souls who are dying. So I don't see how we can be said to be immortal souls. At the consummation of the eons, all mankind will then experience immortality from that point forward if not sooner at the snatching away, but most of us will have died first. I think it comes down to what you think death is I guess. If you think it's another form of life, then an immortal soul would make sense I guess. But I think the dead know nothing because scripture says so, and scripture also says the soul dies. Immortality means no death. So, if the soul dies, it's not immortal.

eaglesway · April 01, 2015, 06:34:56 AM

I see that and I think its a good point. I think the whole thing is seen through a glass darkly, but the resurrection will occur to every soul. From my view they are sleeping in the grave and they will be raised on the Day, everyone.
Its not something about which I have any axes to grind though, there are points to support both views. :o)

marie glen · April 01, 2015, 07:10:44 AM

Quote from: sheila on March 31, 2015, 06:37:54 AM
Eccl 3;11 ...HE HAS ALSO SET ETERNITY IN THE HEARTS OF MEN.....

...what an intriguing verse..

..but the versions differ a lot on it.. for example https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ecclesiastes%203:11&version=JUB;NASB;NKJV;KJV;YLT

and the Concordant Version says it like this - "He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart So that the man may not find out His work, That which the One, Elohim, does from the beginning to the terminus."

Not as poetic as the NKJV -- interesting.. not sure if it's logical, but I get the sense of concealing(from the Strong's) eternity in our hearts, that we may yearn to find Him/truth...
:smile:

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when I bought my concordant literal new testament

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