What about Jude?

[GerWat]

I read a bit on Jude here: http://tentmaker.org/forum/arguments-against-universal-salvation/jude-ch-1/

But I just don't see how gatheredfragments gets to UR from this scripture.  It's a bit difficult.

Can someone please give me a more elementary explanation.

jerry

[marie glen]

hi Jerry! I think he is saying that since all things grow, it's impossible for there to be "eternal damnation".. It makes sense to me, that every thing grows (progresses one way or another) and therefor "eternal" damnation seems highly unlikely... :Chinscratch: very interesting..

Jude, it seems, wrote warning of false teachers in the body. Previously, both Paul and Peter had written about false teachings taking shape in the churches, warning against them.. the church fathers (I believe) and most Bible scholars agree that gnosticism (hidden knowledge/"gnosis" for certain enlightened ones) was what was being warned against.. (The Nicolaitans mentioned in the letters of the Book of Revelation was gnostic.)

It seems like it began as asceticism (a strict observance of touch not, eat not, etc) but also developed into license/immorality, because the gnostics believed Jesus could not have come in the "flesh" because the "flesh" was what was evil and what we had to be rescued from, therefor if everything was evil, even eating, then what the heck, might as well do whatever, as all was evil..

By Jude's letter the immoral branches had flourished. (Much more than the ascetic, it seems, go figure!) In Revelation Jesus said of the Nicolaitans "which thing I hate"..

And Jude compared these false teachers to raging waves, etc, and listed judgments of God which such ones would do well to consider! How angles who left their first place were now in chains of (deep) darkness (cannot reverse their course back to perfection) and are locked into awaiting judgment, just as those awaiting the flood-since they were not about to get on the ark, were locked into judgment.. how Sodom and Gomorrah's fiery judgment was an example of eternal (actually in the original language - agelasting/aionian) fire -  which of course, there is no fire there now, just some hills of dust and ashes..

It does make sense to me, that every thing grows (progresses one way or another) and therefor "eternal" damnation seems highly unlikely... (Along with the logic that God's Great Plan of Salvation, surely cannot possibly fall so very short...) :smile:

[eaglesway]

He wasnt making a full case for UR in that post.

What he was doing was showing that those verses are not proof-texts for eternal torment.

His presentation was

1)That God destroyed unbelief in the wilderness -it is not representative of eternal torment, but the purging of unbelief

2)That the angels who left there proper abode are PRESENTLY in chains UNTIL judgment day- not representative of eternal torment, but they are awaiting their judgment, which is as yet unknown

3 that Sodom and Gomorrah are set forth as a present tense example of judgment by fire- they are not burning forever, but aare set forth as an example of the potential severity of God's temporal(in present time) judgment on the exceedingly wicked

[rosered]

I love the scriptures that say return to God   Isaiah 55 , Its says He is always near   Acts  17  not very far from any of us [God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.]
 
Where did we wander so far way from Him , How did we get  so  lost ?   

  and its overcoming the world that is how   we  learn righteousness   , as suffering in the days of our  weakened  flesh  , do we also learn obedience ...
  I believe this is why we are here in the first place   in a humbled and weakened state  .

Jude explains this is   a binding of chains in darkness and ignorance about the ways of God       prisoners in out own minds  really ....

because the carnal mind is a enmity against the Spirit    and can never keep the law of God  and never will , which is LOVE 

ONLY LOVE,, can grow in truth and grace    by the Very source  IS  GOD ...WHO IS LOVE AND SPIRIT AND TRUTH   this is the increase  of God  to me ...

more of Him ,     we are turned over to our own ways of reaping what we sow  , when you sow to the flesh it  reaps  corruption

when you sow to the Spirit it reaps Life eternal   .... there is no limit and end with God  , whom is all power   and the very source of Goodness and mercy   by His Own Spirit  of Life coursing though  your very being   as those are gathered into HIM  and what comes out of Him are the Sons of Glory  , Jesus was the perfect /complete  and entire example of that ..He come to show us the Father  that was seen in Him .