Should Christians take up arms?

[Seth]

I see running to the hills literally as in being given the strength to resist fighting in the manner of the world, going to a high place spiritually. I see them correlating.

[Jock]

Seth

Going to a high place spiritually is our default condition, or should be. Jesus told his disciples to flee to the hills, He didn't tell them to be more spiritual!


It's really a pity you had to justify and spiritualize it, you seemed to be on the right track earlier, oh well!

Jock.

[Seth]

I have always seen it in a spiritual way, but I really would run for the hills literally. Some people don't have literal hills they can make it to, but the principle is not to resist the persecution but to be at peace with all men so much as it depends on me.

[Jock]

OK, sorry mate, I misunderstood you. I know what you mean now.  :dsunny:

Shalom

Jock. :Peace2:

[Seth]

 No worries  :friendstu:

[CHB]

I agree that we should do no harm to any one. We should avoid all apperances of evil. We should not go looking for violence of any kind and so forth. But, sometimes it is just impossible to do the above if you are confronted in such a manner that your life or the life of others are in danger. I wouldn't think much of a man or woman who if they saw me being beaten to death turned and ran for the hills. There is a time for all things. I have seen on tv where a bunch of people just stood around while someone beat the crap out of another. Is that acting godly? is that showing love for your fellow man? is this pleasing to God?

CHB 

[Seth]

Go with how you feel led. In the end that's what we all have to do  :HeartThrob:

[CHB]

Go with how you feel led. In the end that's what we all have to do  :HeartThrob:

Exactly.  :iagree:

[Jock]

I agree with Seth. Do what's in your heart to do and allow the Lord to judge it.

I think I'm gonna bow out from this thread, it's been a humdinger though

Gnnight all

Jock. :friendstu:

[Seth]

BTW, God willing if I saw you being attacked, I would try to rescue you by pulling you away from danger. If you turned around and asked me to suit up and join the war effort, I'd politely decline.  :gimmefive:

[Shev]

If Jesus kingdom had been of this world then his servants would fight. We are of this world therefore we sometimes have to fight, just like Jesus servants would do.

If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. (John 15:19)

[jabcat]

In that one, isolated reference, Jesus was speaking specifically to His disciples.  I know that applies to us as well at least in some sense.  I wonder though if there are other [later] scriptures and circumstances that add further context..such as "put the sword away"/"take [what you need] buy a sword".  We are different, because of Christ in us, working His work, however, we are still in the world.  In it, but not of it..again, I wonder about other relevant context.  Also, all the ways 'in not of' may be interpreted, applied, and mean to each individual.  Some believe that means live in a commune, pray 18 hours a day, don't work, don't talk to anyone, etc.  As we know, most of us others walk it out in many different ways.    If we weren't in a physical world (although we do have spiritual differences than the world) we wouldn't need to work, procure food, handle money, etc...Jesus said in one place not to worry over these things, they'll be provided...still, He said to bring them.  And Paul said a man who doesn't supply his family with such is worse than an infidel...balance, in the end and first and foremost trusting Him to supply all our needs by His riches in glory.  He gives all good gifts..but there are tangible gifts (necessities, tools, needs in everyday life).

that's why I believe it's discernment, personal conscience, and not in every instance a cookie-cutter "one scripture always settles it" kind of thing.  an example of similar is;  I've said myself to try to prove an overall point, and also saw quoted earlier in this thread re: the sword, that Jesus "only spoke to them in parables".  That was true - up to a point - but then, not often heard quoted, it changed.  "His disciples said, "Ah, now you are speaking plainly and not using figurative speech!"  John 16:29

[Pig]

...
So a serious question is (and I do truly personally wrestle with this, so I'm not just being facetious now) at what point faith and being spiritual, while attending to daily needs, in a real life, with real problems, and real wicked people?  Is it taking absolutely no precautions or making absolutely no preparations and trusting God?  Or is it DOING those things (if one is provided the means by God to do so) but still trusting God as the "final answer", and as the Provider of all good things?  Is there a balance somewhere?  Blessings.

Mr 6:9 But [be] shod with sandals; and not put on two coats.

Why two sandals and one coat?  The feet represent our 'walk' or 'life', and the coat represents works.  As long as we live, we walk in the flesh and in the spirit. Paul cries out, Ro 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

But we are to have only one work, the "good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." Eph 2:10

As the work and workmanship of Christ I am a theological and philosophical passivist. But because I have two sandals, I may backslide and I will cry out with Paul "O wretched man that I am!"

[Seth]

We are different, because of Christ in us, working His work, however, we are still in the world.  In it, but not of it..again, I wonder about other relevant context.  Also, all the ways 'in not of' may be interpreted, applied, and mean to each individual.  Some believe that means live in a commune, pray 18 hours a day, don't work, don't talk to anyone, etc. 

To me, I think it's important, when quoting a sentence that someone in the Bible says, to consider the whole sentence. We could talk a lot about what it means to be in the world and of the world, but we should also talk about what Jesus means when he says "If my kingdom were of this world, they would fight that I not be delivered to the Jews" and not just cut off the rest of the sentence at the word "fight."

In other words, Jesus knows that we are literally in the world, but if fighting to keep Jesus from being delivered from the Jews is representative of being "of this world" then I would say in that sense Peter was of this world when he fought to do that, and Jesus was not of this world. In that sense.

[jabcat]

Makes sense to me.  I also think of the context though of Jesus' intent being to die - He wasn't asking, nor did He want anyone to defend or deliver Him if His Father didn't.  This was a specific time, specific events, specific people - when He was walking the earth with the mission that MUST be fulfilled at the cross.  i'm not saying that's an end-all be-all statement for this particular thread, just that there are many things to consider. 

[jabcat]

 :handshake:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNTxr2NJHa0

[Seth]

Yes, that was a historic event, but I believe it is meant to become a template for our own walk:

1 John2
3And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

:HeartThrob:

[jabcat]

Agreed..but because there are so many variables, that's why we can't "judge another man's servant".  One person's walk (all within the boundaries of scripture, a good conscience, the Lord's leading) may not look exactly like each others'.  I believe that's why one can serve as a policeman and carry an assault weapon (and use it) while another can spend their time in the Alps in a commune on their knees 18 hours a day and wouldn't kill an ant if it crawled on them - and still both be exactly in the Lord's will.  Both a minister of the Lord.   :2c:

[Seth]

I think that's for the Lord to decide though.

[eaglesway]

In other words you disagree.

[Seth]

No, I mean that whatever is exactly in the Lord's will is up to him to decide. I only go by what I believe from the scriptures. And you go by what you see. What is exactly in his will we will see when the time comes. Whatever happens, nobody is going to hell for any of this. It'll all get straightened out by him in the scope of his infinite understanding.

[CHB]

In that one, isolated reference, Jesus was speaking specifically to His disciples.  I know that applies to us as well at least in some sense.  I wonder though if there are other [later] scriptures and circumstances that add further context..such as "put the sword away"/"take [what you need] buy a sword".  We are different, because of Christ in us, working His work, however, we are still in the world.  In it, but not of it..again, I wonder about other relevant context.  Also, all the ways 'in not of' may be interpreted, applied, and mean to each individual.  Some believe that means live in a commune, pray 18 hours a day, don't work, don't talk to anyone, etc.  As we know, most of us others walk it out in many different ways.    If we weren't in a physical world (although we do have spiritual differences than the world) we wouldn't need to work, procure food, handle money, etc...Jesus said in one place not to worry over these things, they'll be provided...still, He said to bring them.  And Paul said a man who doesn't supply his family with such is worse than an infidel...balance, in the end and first and foremost trusting Him to supply all our needs by His riches in glory.  He gives all good gifts..but there are tangible gifts (necessities, tools, needs in everyday life).

that's why I believe it's discernment, personal conscience, and not in every instance a cookie-cutter "one scripture always settles it" kind of thing.  an example of similar is;  I've said myself to try to prove an overall point, and also saw quoted earlier in this thread re: the sword, that Jesus "only spoke to them in parables".  That was true - up to a point - but then, not often heard quoted, it changed.  "His disciples said, "Ah, now you are speaking plainly and not using figurative speech!"  John 16:29

Jabcat, you sure have a way about explaining things that I wish I had. Amen to all you say here.

CHB

[micah7:9]

If, you picked up the NT and you knew nothing about human nature, human logic, human common sense, you just understood the words that were on the paper and you read the NT and the teachings, would you come away with any sense of violence, be it self- defense or otherwise?

In my opinion, we all live in a time that our thinking comes from the history of our beginning, whether that be the wheel, America's Revolution, Civil War, and wars up unto the distress of 3/2015, robbery, crime, riots, etc. Our at least mine, mindset is to physically defend self, family, friend, country......faith.
Just wondering is that mindset of the mind of Christ?  :Chinscratch: :HeartThrob:

[dajomaco]

I think you have to know what you are shooting for .
Is your goal to have the mind of Christ .
If so are there things of the world that distract you now, but you hope you can over come .
Is carrying a gun something to overcome?

[micah7:9]

Maybe it's me and probably is, but I think you missed my point, or as usual I didn't ask it correctly. Sorry. :sigh: