Should Christians take up arms?

[jabcat]

I take it to mean that I don't instigate the problem, even going out of my to solve/reconcile, etc.

[Seth]

Somewhere Paul said that people who live in righteousness WILL experience persecution or troubles. When you do what God says people won't be at peace with you.

[jabcat]

Yes, I don't think one necessarily negates the other.

[jabcat]

again, discernment, the Lord's leading, different situations, all that (much of what's already been said  :footmouth:) :)

[Seth]

using your own example of rescuing a child from an attacker, doing that even without violence exacted on the attacker will not put you at peace with him for sure.

[Seth]

again, discernment, the Lord's leading, different situations, all that (much of what's already been said  :footmouth:) :)

:iagree:

[Tom]

I think Jesus stopped Peter from using his sword because it wasn't the right time to use it even after he had just told the disciples to get some swords. I think Jesus did it for the same reason that he rebuked Peter for not wanting him to be crucified. Peter didn't seem to understand that it was God's will for Jesus to be crucified. Regarding MLK, I think there's a difference between non-violent civil disobedience and personal defense of self and family. I doubt he would have remained non-violent if somebody was attacking his family. I think, if you have a family, you have a responsibility to protect them. If you want be celibate and preach the evangel, then it wouldn't be a problem if you want to be a martyr. We all suffer persecution for the faith, but I think thugs attacking you and your loved ones is a different story. Everybody has a choice to make about whether they want to submit to violence or not. I think it's a lot easier to philosophize about it than to actually experience it and then try to remain passive while somebody is attacking you. And just letting it happen to yourself is one thing, but letting it happen to your loved ones for the sake of some ideal is something else.

[Seth]

As far as family members go I agree with Jabcat it's a take it as it comes situation. Let God guide through his Grace. Anyway, that's my prayer.

As far as joining the military, I think Jabcat's referenced scripture is another witness against that. Live at peace as much as it depends on you.

Do you have a choice not to join an army and bomb your enemies and the hapless women and children who are collateral? Does that choice depend on you? Of course it does.

Bombing ISIS might satisfy a sense of vengeance for many but if you think it will end the violence look at history. Before Isis there was Al Qaeda, before that there was Lebanon. You kill them, their children grow up to hate you, and so since the beginning of time.

I choose not to participate in that bloody cycle. I choose to live at peace with all men so much as it depends on me.

[Tom]

I hear ya, brother. I choose to live at peace with all men too, but if some of those men choose not to live at peace with me, then what?

[Seth]

Then live peacefully as much as it depends on you...not them. Joining a war depends on you not them that's why Paul's actions which were based on his words, were not violent. Can you tell me that Paul would join the US army and go bomb ISIS. I couldn't say that and keep a straight face personally.

[Tom]

I'm not thinking about going to bomb ISIS, just personal defense on the street or in the home.

[Seth]

That's why this conversation can wearying  :laughing7:

We're talking about different things.

[Jock]

Well, I mentioned "bombing ISIS" because I was very angry at the thought of what they were doing to little kids, and that they do it wantonly. James is right, things are getting worse and imo this is the time to be thinking about alarming and hardening our homes against intruders. Guns, knives, billy clubs, baseball bats et all. Fleeing to the hills even in a 5th wheel. Storing food and water etc.



Jock.

[Jock]

I say these things because they ARE my conviction before God and men. If you knew me personally, you would quickly see that I am a gentle person, I was even bullied in High School and didn't fight back. However, this is a new world we are living in now, and I have a family and as a Christian, I expect to be persecuted. So, these are my contingencies in the case of being under lethal threat.

I'm not going to try and spiritualize this, I'm just being honest and up front about it. It wasn't my desire to cause any strife on the thread.

Here's a video of Maine prepper who is a Christian and a prepper. He is ex military and has a lot of good common sense and wise things to say.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsdEgcE_Yss

Shalom

Jock.

[CHB]

I see what Jesus said "then my servants would fight" as saying, there is a time when it is ok to fight for a good cause. Just like in Ecc.3:3 "a time to kill and a time to heal". Verse 8, a time of war,and a time of peace.

I have a question? if this Country was being attacked and every one of our lives were in danger should we all just sit around and do nothing? What then?

CHB

[Seth]

CHB I would do exactly what Jesus said to do, run for the hills. the world sees that is cowardice but I see it as Christ directive towards those that are not of this world. Being of this world as Jesus said means to fight. But because his kingdom is not of this world they run for the hills. they go to a higher place that overlooks the valley where all this fighting  and bloodshed is.

did Jesus say "stand up, be a man, and fight" or "run for the hills?"

[Jock]

Seth

Outstanding brother!

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

Shalom

Jock.

[micah7:9]

As far as submitting to evil forces coming at them, those apostles didn't fight to defend their personal selves with human methods of war. They stood on Christ instruction to fight evil with goodness, prayer and blessing. Martin Luther King Jr did the same thing with principalities of his day.

Seth, why did Jesus say, "My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants FIGHT"? 

CHB

Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My deputies, also, would have contended, lest I should be given up to the Jews. Yet now is My kingdom not hence."

[CHB]

If Jesus kingdom had been of this world then his servants would fight. We are of this world therefore we sometimes have to fight, just like Jesus servants would do.

Even John the Baptist recognized the need for soldiers in our present societies. He advised soldiers to be content with their wages. At no time did he advise soldiers to get out of the military (Luke 3:14). In actual fact, the armed forces of civilized countries are as necessary today for the preservation of the peace as they were in the time of Moses, in the time of David or when Christ comes to war with his divine army to prevail against all evil. For Christ's use of war, read all of Revelation 19.

Luke 3:14  And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely and be content with your wages.

CHB

[Tom]

Heading for the hills may not be an option sometimes just like sometimes you might not be able to get away from an attack on the street or in your home. You may have no choice but to fight or simply be killed without fighting. If you have a family to protect, I'd say you should do whatever you can to try to protect them. 

[micah7:9]

CHB I would do exactly what Jesus said to do, run for the hills. the world sees that is cowardice but I see it as Christ directive towards those that are not of this world. Being of this world as Jesus said means to fight. But because his kingdom is not of this world they run for the hills. they go to a higher place that overlooks the valley where all this fighting  and bloodshed is.

did Jesus say "stand up, be a man, and fight" or "run for the hills?"

Luk 21:14 Ponder, then, in your hearts not to be premeditating a defense,
Luk 21:15 for I will be giving you a mouth and wisdom, which all those opposing you shall not be able to withstand or contradict."

Luk 21:21 Then let those in Judea flee into the mountains...... [I could not find "flee to the hills]
When I (imo) read this I read those in Praise[knowing that the Lord is my high tower] flee to the high places of strength from Him. But that is just me. :2c: :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

If Jesus kingdom had been of this world then his servants would fight. We are of this world therefore we sometimes have to fight, just like Jesus servants would do.

Look at the context. Pilot asked Jesus if he was a king. If so, why were his people delivering him up to be killed. Because his kingdom is not of this world. IF IT WERE then they would fight that he not be delivered to the Jews, just like the Jews wanted to kill him. He is explaining to pilot why a king wouldn't fight back. The Kingdom is rightousness PEACE and joy in The Holy Spirit. That's the scriptural definition. The Holy Spirit is not of this world it is in heaven. And that is why those who are not of this world live in peace with those who are evil to them.

When Peter fought for Jesus, he was rebuked by Jesus. That's because Peter was fighting in the manner of this world.

Jesus said "they would fight THAT I NOT BE DELIVERED TO THE JEWS." That's the whole context of what he said. That's exactly what Peter did and was rebuked for it.

CHB, in the context of the scripture you are quoting, since you say you are of this world, would you fight that Jesus not be delivered to the Jews? You keep cutting Christ's sentence in half when you quote it.

For Christ's use of war, read all of Revelation 19.

I did read revelation 19. It says Jesus fights with a sword that comes from his MOUTH.

[Seth]

CHB I would do exactly what Jesus said to do, run for the hills. the world sees that is cowardice but I see it as Christ directive towards those that are not of this world. Being of this world as Jesus said means to fight. But because his kingdom is not of this world they run for the hills. they go to a higher place that overlooks the valley where all this fighting  and bloodshed is.

did Jesus say "stand up, be a man, and fight" or "run for the hills?"

Luk 21:14 Ponder, then, in your hearts not to be premeditating a defense,
Luk 21:15 for I will be giving you a mouth and wisdom, which all those opposing you shall not be able to withstand or contradict."

Luk 21:21 Then let those in Judea flee into the mountains...... [I could not find "flee to the hills]
When I (imo) read this I read those in Praise[knowing that the Lord is my high tower] flee to the high places of strength from Him. But that is just me. :2c: :HeartThrob:

Spiritually I see it the same way. Go to a higher place. Not fight back with the same evil.

[Seth]

Heading for the hills may not be an option sometimes just like sometimes you might not be able to get away from an attack on the street or in your home. You may have no choice but to fight or simply be killed without fighting. If you have a family to protect, I'd say you should do whatever you can to try to protect them.

That's up to you brother  :HeartThrob:

[micah7:9]

CHB I would do exactly what Jesus said to do, run for the hills. the world sees that is cowardice but I see it as Christ directive towards those that are not of this world. Being of this world as Jesus said means to fight. But because his kingdom is not of this world they run for the hills. they go to a higher place that overlooks the valley where all this fighting  and bloodshed is.

did Jesus say "stand up, be a man, and fight" or "run for the hills?"

Luk 21:14 Ponder, then, in your hearts not to be premeditating a defense,
Luk 21:15 for I will be giving you a mouth and wisdom, which all those opposing you shall not be able to withstand or contradict."

Luk 21:21 Then let those in Judea flee into the mountains...... [I could not find "flee to the hills]
When I (imo) read this I read those in Praise[knowing that the Lord is my high tower] flee to the high places of strength from Him. But that is just me. :2c: :HeartThrob:

Spiritually I see it the same way. Go to a higher place. Not fight back with the same evil.

I know I am slow on the uptake sometimes, "Spiritually I see it the same way." Is that not how we are to understand? I know I am a human being and I live in America, but to paraphrase, How can I be to spiritually minded and be of no earthly good? Jesus said,
Joh 6:63 The Spirit is that which is vivifying. The flesh is not benefiting anything. The declarations which I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
Joh 4:24 God is spirit, and those who are worshiping Him must be worshiping in spirit and truth."
Should I continue[as I still do] stand with a gun in one hand and the Word in the other, I (as a carnal human) will always be wrestling with the old man vs. the new man. My old man stands on common and logical sense, while my new man is trying to understand that my only weapon to stand with is the Almighty I AM. God is spirit, and those who are worshiping Him must be worshiping in spirit and truth."
2Sa 22:3 My Elohim [is] my rock--I take refuge in Him; My shield, and the horn of my salvation, My high tower, and my refuge! My Saviour, from violence You save me!"
:2c: :HeartThrob: