Should Christians take up arms?

[jabcat]

James, I was referring to the former situation being murder. I think, in the situation you described, you would be justified in shooting the guy to protect the child. I just hope you have a good lawyer because his family will try to bankrupt you in civil court even if you get off in criminal court. That's the only thing I'm really concerned with involving self-defense or the defense of other innocents that you have the power to protect.

yes, i understood your point, thanks.   yeah, i hear you..sad but true, that it might be "easier" to look the other way and let evil have its way.  But then I'd feel "evil" for doing so   :sigh:

[Tom]

I hear ya James. I even got tired of the whole forum a few months ago and had to take a break. I hear ya, Joe, but sometimes we have to discuss hypothetical situations to understand what's up. It's sad that we even have to consider these things, but the real world is a violent place. The good thing is that we have an expectation of a time when evil will be nullified and even death will be abolished. Even God's messengers of evil will lose their power and be reconciled to God. Then we won't have to be concerned with any of this stuff anymore.

[Tom]

Well, James, in your scenario, I couldn't look the other way. I would have to confront the maniac and just hope the legal system would see it as justified.

[Seth]

One of the reasons I think this topic is wearying is that it is pretty broad. "Christians taking up arms" to defend themselves. Well the death penalty isn't really self defense, anyway. But so many things go into the concept of "taking up arms." Protecting one's family can include many things, such as having a gun in the home, going off to fight in a war, defending one's self while preaching the gospel in a synagogue (historic reference intended) etc. It's hard not to speak past each other in that respect because one person may be talking about one aspect (what to do when your family is attacked by rapists) and another person could be talking about a different aspect (joining the army and going oversees to drop bombs). So I have been in agreement with many here about the fact that "taking up arms" is a gradation of an issue and many issues are being discussed all at once.

[Tom]

I hear ya, bro.

[dajomaco]

A person who  is not a Christian gets a sense of comfort and protection from having a gun.

Does the person you is a believer get the same sense
of protection from his gun as the unbeliever does.

I own a gun I was thinking of getting rid of it.

[Tom]

I think a gun is simply a tool that can be used for defense of yourself and your loved ones. Why are you thinking about getting rid of yours?

[Jock]

Wow, another 37 new posts this morning with several scenarios. I agree, it is a wise thing to have a dog but not necessarily a mean looking dog. We have a little Papillon that is an excellent watch dog. Anyone comes to our door, he goes ballistic, so he doubles as a good house alarm. I was thinking though, scripture says many things about Christ and man's relationship with God and his neighbour. There is something here I think we should consider, as follows: Paul said:

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. This is spiritual warfare and the battleground is usually the mind, however, these powers and principalities can move people to do heinous things to innocent people. When ISIS came into Mosul, they beheaded all the children and put their heads on sticks in the local park. I, for one am glad that we have a military to bomb these people to hell and gone.

These people are demon possessed and their god (Allah) is the devil. They are the descendents of Ishmael of whom the Lord said "he will be a wild man". I'm not sure if they will ever occupy the town I live in but if I even get a whiff of their presence, I will take my family and flee to the hills. Of course, that may sound a bit far fetched right now, but in 5 years?????

In the meantime we have plenty violence in our towns and cities and if we come up against a threat, remember that we are coming up against an evil principality.

Shalom :Peace2:

Jock.

BTW, I believe that word "principality" covers things like wickedness in the government, in commerce, the police and the military, and in some cases, the church, imo

[Tom]

I figured that quote would come up. I understand, but I think some humans are instruments of these evil spiritual forces just as we are supposed to be instruments for God's will. So I don't believe I need to submit to humans coming at me with evil intentions. I can love my enemies without letting them destroy me. I think being martyred for the word of God is different than just being passive while being attacked by thugs on the street or in your home. I think all believers should expect to be persecuted for our beliefs, but I don't think that means we are supposed to submit to all violence against us. I think you can be a believer and still resist people who threaten your life with whatever skills and tools you have including firearms just as you would defend yourself against attacks by any vicious animals. I think that's a natural instinct that's justified. If you choose to be a martyr for the word of God, you can get a one way ticket to Syria and do so. That's your choice, but I think that's a different situation than self-defense.

[CHB]

Tom, I agree. Just think what a difference it might make if all people knew that if they tried to rob, kill, or fight someone that they would be met with resistance. Wouldn't a robber, murderer think twice to mess with someone they knew might get them first? Not that we should look for violence but there are those who do and if everyone was ready for them it might stop a lot of violence. If a robber or murderer was looking for a victim, who do you think he would go after, the man with a gun, or someone with no protection?  If this murderer or robber knew that everyone had some form of protection I think it would make him think twice before he attacked someone.

I admit that no weapon, force, violence, of any kind is the ideal way to live but we are all human and humans without God in their lives can be evil. This perfect living arrangement without violence will not happen until all are spirit but till then we have to deal with these things. But as I said in another post, God is in charge of it all, whatever we do is the way God wants each of us to handle things.

CHB   

[Seth]

2 Cor 10
3For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after (like) the flesh: 4(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) 5Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

Wrestling with principalities does not mean, in my opinion, warring like the flesh does or adopting carnal weapons of war. It involves prayer and battling "everything that exalts itself against the knowledge of God" by bringing into captivity every THOUGHT to the obedience of Christ. Paul was not recommending taking up carnal weapons and fighting people who are tempted of the devil to hate their own enemies.

[Seth]

BTW, when you do a word study on the phrase "high places" it is often associated with idol worship in the Bible. Idols were worshipped in high places. So since man is meant to be a temple of God, where would the location of that high place be for idol worship?

http://biblehub.com/topical/h/high_places.htm

When the poorer people didn't have resources to build a temple, they would make a large mound for a high place to worship.

Ezekiel 6:6
In all your dwellingplaces the cities shall be laid waste, and the high places shall be desolate; that your altars may be laid waste and made desolate, and your idols may be broken and cease, and your images may be cut down, and your works may be abolished.

[Jock]

Seth

I agree that Paul was not talking about warring in the flesh, although these spirits and powers in "high places" have authority over many. I said in my post that the battle is in the mind. If one spirit can dislodge another, it gains authority, that was what I was driving at.

Thanks for the well intentioned correction though  :winkgrin:

Shalom  :Peace2:

Jock

[Seth]

Hi Jock, I liked the things in your post about the mind. My post wasn't a direct response to yours. Just adding to the mix.   :gimmefive:

[Jock]

Seth

Tom put it well when he said: 

• "I figured that quote would come up. I understand, but I think some humans are instruments of these evil spiritual forces just as we are supposed to be instruments for God's will. So I don't believe I need to submit to humans coming at me with evil intentions"
  

I have quite a history of spiritual warfare and still get attacked at times, So I look to the scriptures and the counsel of my brothers, for the truth that ALWAYS sets me free! This is how I grow.


Shalom :Peace2:


Jock.

[Jock]

Seth, no worries bro  :gimmefive: :gimmefive:

[Seth]

As far as submitting to evil forces coming at them, those apostles didn't fight to defend their personal selves with human methods of war. They stood on Christ instruction to fight evil with goodness, prayer and blessing. Martin Luther King Jr did the same thing with principalities of his day.

[dajomaco]

 Tom, I agree. Just think what a difference it might make if all people knew that if they tried to rob, kill, or fight someone that they would be met with resistance. Wouldn't a robber, murderer think twice to mess with someone they knew might get them first? Not that we should look for violence but there are those who do and if everyone was ready for them it might stop a lot of violence. If a robber or murderer was looking for a victim, who do you think he would go after, the man with a gun, or someone with no protection?  If this murderer or robber knew that everyone had some form of protection I think it would make him think twice before he attacked someone.


The USA has already the most guns per capita than any other industrial Nation.
They also have the highest murder rate.
More guns more murder.
Does the unbeliever get the same sense of protection from his gun as a believer ?

[jabcat]

daj, I'd suggest looking at the amount of 'illegal' guns.  There are a lot of guns in America, but we also have a very large and rapidly increasing culture of thugs who hate the law and think they can do whatever they want.  I'd suggest looking at studies that involve 'legal' ownership, i.e., law-abiding citizens who care about the law and others.  The latest I saw was Seth's state, California (which, sorry Seth, it's not your fault  :laugh:, you're one of the good guys;  but I believe is generally the most 'Godless', humanistic, "insane" state in the union - though we all have our share).  LEGAL gun ownership in California has recently dramatically increased, and murder rates have significantly decreased.  Re: CA, I'm the pot calling the kettle black, because I live in the St. Louis area, where if you make someone a little bit mad or are just in the "wrong place at the wrong time", you're literally taking yours and your family's lives in your hands.  The lawless thug culture is extremely high here.

As far as believers and unbelievers gaining the same sense of protection, I think that's hard to answer because it would be so individualized.  If I could guess and generalize, I'd hope believers would know that ultimately, no matter what, their strength, comfort, protection, and all that is life comes from the Lord and is directed by His hand.  While at the same time, I would suspect many feel justified and of clear conscience being prepared as best as each persons' means are supplied.   :2c:

[jabcat]

p.s.  i suspect in america we've reached a tipping point, to where the Godless, lawless sub-culture has increased to the point to where it's taking over.  and much of our government is corrupt and a humanistic (or worse) product of the 60's, so are complicit if not actively supporting it.  so whether the perspective and reactions are right or wrong (legal citizens physically preparing to defend themselves and their families [and other innocents]), if all the guns were supposedly seized or if lawful people surrendered their arms, who would still have the weapons?  i seriously doubt the criminal element would just gladly turn theirs over.  as chb and tom and others have suggested, it's a mess, and ultimately only God is going to remedy it.   :2c:

[CHB]

As far as submitting to evil forces coming at them, those apostles didn't fight to defend their personal selves with human methods of war. They stood on Christ instruction to fight evil with goodness, prayer and blessing. Martin Luther King Jr did the same thing with principalities of his day.

Seth, why did Jesus say, "My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants FIGHT"? 

CHB

[micah7:9]

As far as submitting to evil forces coming at them, those apostles didn't fight to defend their personal selves with human methods of war. They stood on Christ instruction to fight evil with goodness, prayer and blessing. Martin Luther King Jr did the same thing with principalities of his day.

Seth, why did Jesus say, "My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants FIGHT"? 

CHB

I may just ask....How did Jesus fight..in the world?

[Seth]

As far as submitting to evil forces coming at them, those apostles didn't fight to defend their personal selves with human methods of war. They stood on Christ instruction to fight evil with goodness, prayer and blessing. Martin Luther King Jr did the same thing with principalities of his day.

Seth, why did Jesus say, "My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants FIGHT"? 

CHB

Well, that's what Peter did. Jesus said: "my servant would fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews:" Doesn't that sound exactly like Peter? Peter was of this world, so he fought, and Jesus stopped him from doing that. But, Peter had not been converted yet, "For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost." (Romans 14:7)

The very fact that Christ's kingdom is not of this world is why they are a people of peace. Jesus is responding to Pilot who asked why his own people have delivered them to him. Christ's response is that my kingdom is NOT of this world. If it were then they WOULD fight, just like Peter did.

To answer Pilot's question, yes Jesus is a king, but those seeking his death were not his kingdom. The very fact that he could stand before pilot without fighting back is a living and active demonstration that his kingdom is not of this world and doesn't function like this world.

[jabcat]

Sorry, but I keep seeing things said that I think may have a "balance" or other side to it, or at least another way to look at it/more to consider.

Paul said live at peace with all men "as much as lies in you", "as much as dependes on you",  or "as much as is possible" etc. depending on the translation.   :2c:

As for Jesus Himself; I remember an earlier mention, that Jesus had a specific mission;  in large part, to physically die.

[Seth]

That I take to mean that it's not your actions that manifest violence. If they preach the gospel in the synagogue they will not be at peace, but not because they fight back. At that point it's out of their hands.