Should Christians take up arms?

[jabcat]

So first it was lack of faith.  Now it's if one is in the spirit or not.

Am I to gather that to have faith or be in the spirit, one would stand and watch their children and wife raped and murdered? 

[Jock]

James, I absolutely agree with you in both posts. Jesus' mission WAS to die but not to be arrested as a brigand. The Jews were looking for the least little thing to bring accusation against Him and when He was taken, His disciples took off running. They were after all, human.

Micah, I know that place you speak of. Perhaps that was the place that Stephen was in when they were going to stone him. We can only hope for that. However, me being human, I would protect my family.

Shalom :Peace2:

Jock.

[jabcat]

:) 

Truly, with a smile on my face and in a laughing, friendly sort of way, I'm going to make some suggestions so we can have more faith and be more spiritual;

let's stop carrying money with us, because God will provide.

let's stop working for a living, because God has all the riches in the world and it's ours.

let's don't shop for food anymore, because God will drop it into our lap.

let's don't read the Bible anymore, because God will put whatever information we need into our head.

let's don't lock the doors at night because God will protect us.

let anyone and everyone into our houses, rapists and murderers on the run from the law.  maybe even let them sleep in the same room with our children, because God won't let anything bad happen.

stop any and all medications, including any herbal remedies.... (no really, please don't unless you know for sure God is saying that)


So a serious question is (and I do truly personally wrestle with this, so I'm not just being facetious now) at what point faith and being spiritual, while attending to daily needs, in a real life, with real problems, and real wicked people?  Is it taking absolutely no precautions or making absolutely no preparations and trusting God?  Or is it DOING those things (if one is provided the means by God to do so) but still trusting God as the "final answer", and as the Provider of all good things?  Is there a balance somewhere?  Blessings.

[micah7:9]

So first it was lack of faith.  Now it's if one is in the spirit or not.

Am I to gather that to have faith or be in the spirit, one would stand and watch their children and wife raped and murdered?

I understand your point and I don't know, as of right now I would probably do what I could to stop the killing. We do not as far as I know have an example of that situation in the Word. What would the disciples have accomplished if they took up arms to try and save their Savior?  I just ask where do I stand in all of what I believe, is the Lord my fortress? Am I in the cleft of the Rock? It's a hard question, but am I yet carnal, when I consider such a thing?  :2c: :HeartThrob:

[jabcat]

 :thumbsup: micah and Joe.  These are tough things to wrestle with.

[joeteekay]

:thumbsup: micah and Joe.  These are tough things to wrestle with.

They sure are. It a question that has plagued a believer for decades if not centuries. No clear cut answer. All post have a perspective worth thinking about. As they say, you will know what to do when the rubber hits the road. Pray that these horrible situations do not happen to those who strive to have Christ live in them.  :2c:

[Jock]

James, you forgot one

If you are going on a long journey, don't take your cell phone, God will provide a mechanic.

If an old lady is being attacked on the street, do you help her or do you watch and shout "Jesus loves you"?

[Shev]

Without that example - or explicit command - we are left to assume that when he told them to buy the blades, He definitely meant "...and use them to kill when necessary", and besides that we are left to use Old Testament, Old Covenant justifications for violence. I personally hate using the Law to govern my actions under the New Covenant!

I understand many like things the peaceful way; but 'you' can't just sweep aside the OT because you missing peace in that Book inspired by theFather Himself. Who are we to say theSon/NT got it right and the OT was/is just an obsolete mistake?

WhiteWings, I do hope you see the difference between what I said and your response. I did not say anything about missing peace in the Old Testament. Nor did I say it I obsolete. Nor did I say it is a mistake. What I did say is that I don't believe we can use the Law to govern our actions under the New Covenant. I honestly believe that is a fair point. To me, the point of the Old Testament is Jesus Christ, whether in foreshadowing, preparation of a nation to produce Him from, prophecy, and type. I also believe He fulfilled the Law, and that the Old Covenant was with earthly Israel. So if someone quotes a commandment from the Old Covenant, I am not going to automatically assume I am bound to it, as I am under a New Covenant in Christ.

[Shev]

:) 

Truly, with a smile on my face and in a laughing, friendly sort of way, I'm going to make some suggestions so we can have more faith and be more spiritual;

let's stop carrying money with us, because God will provide.

let's stop working for a living, because God has all the riches in the world and it's ours.

let's don't shop for food anymore, because God will drop it into our lap.

let's don't read the Bible anymore, because God will put whatever information we need into our head.

let's don't lock the doors at night because God will protect us.

let anyone and everyone into our houses, rapists and murderers on the run from the law.  maybe even let them sleep in the same room with our children, because God won't let anything bad happen.

stop any and all medications, including any herbal remedies.... (no really, please don't unless you know for sure God is saying that)


So a serious question is (and I do truly personally wrestle with this, so I'm not just being facetious now) at what point faith and being spiritual, while attending to daily needs, in a real life, with real problems, and real wicked people?  Is it taking absolutely no precautions or making absolutely no preparations and trusting God?  Or is it DOING those things (if one is provided the means by God to do so) but still trusting God as the "final answer", and as the Provider of all good things?  Is there a balance somewhere?  Blessings.

This is an amusing list, jabcat, but I would like to make the point that none of these things would involve harming or killing someone. Even locking a door does not hurt a thief physically, shopping for food hurts no-one at all, etc etc. So doing or not doing them would not present the danger of doing harm to a neighbor, as the subject matter of the OP would.

When I spoke of faith, I was not speaking of putting God to the test, but rather trusting to Him for protection. I honestly see God as a more capable protector than I do any physical weapon. I also believe the Spirit of God would be powerful even in a situation where physical violence was occurring - I have physically seen an unarmed believer attacked by two men, and rebuke them in the name of Christ to the point that they fled from him.

It is definitely a hard subject, because we are all dealing in hypotheticals, but I really do believe that owning a gun would be a very profound statement of where my trust is. Should anything actually arise, I would have to trust God for wisdom in that situation too.

[micah7:9]

I bought my first ever firearm weapon in 2012 a shot gun for protection, 2013 I bought a handgun for my daughter for protection, 2013 I also bought a Henry Big Boy for deer hunting and protection.
I pray that I will never have to use any of these for protection, I also pray that my faith in Jesus Christ the Lord will protect me and my family.
I like to believe that I am born again, I like to believe I have been filled with the Holy Spirit, I like to believe I am saved, but as I walk and pray in this age I know that I am "being" born from above and that I am "being" filled with the Holy Spirit, and that I am "being" saved and with that knowledge...I am yet carnal....so my faith is still "being" established. And I always seem to forget that it is HIS FAITH.

[Seth]

When one is truly in spirit, imo, the thought of taking up any weapon would not enter ones mind. :2c:
Isa 54:17  No weapon formed against thee prospereth, And every tongue rising against thee, In judgment thou condemnest. This is the inheritance of the servants of Jehovah, And their righteousness from me, an affirmation of Jehovah!
1Co 3:3  For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

:thumbsup: :dsunny:

[jabcat]

I truly see and understand most, if not all, "sides" to this discussion.  If anyone has enough faith, if they feel God has truly led them to that point - OR, if they have no other recourse or resources - then I believe they should do whatever it is they need to do.  I too believe in trusting god, and I know sometimes He appear in the burning bush or blinding light.  I also know I need to believe and trust Him more.

(It's an old story, and I know, it's just a limited 2D representation [doesn't cover all areas of the topic]) but still may be cause for further thought and discussion.  That said, I don't want to be this guy;

"A fellow was stuck on his rooftop in a flood. He was praying to God for help.

Soon a man in a rowboat came by and the fellow shouted to the man on the roof, "Jump in, I can save you."

The stranded fellow shouted back, "No, it's OK, I'm praying to God and he is going to save me."

So the rowboat went on.

Then a motorboat came by. "The fellow in the motorboat shouted, "Jump in, I can save you."

To this the stranded man said, "No thanks, I'm praying to God and he is going to save me. I have faith."

So the motorboat went on.

Then a helicopter came by and the pilot shouted down, "Grab this rope and I will lift you to safety."

To this the stranded man again replied, "No thanks, I'm praying to God and he is going to save me. I have faith."

So the helicopter reluctantly flew away.

Soon the water rose above the rooftop and the man drowned. He went to Heaven. He finally got his chance to discuss this whole situation with God, at which point he exclaimed, "I had faith in you but you didn't save me, you let me drown. I don't understand why!"

To this God replied, "I sent you a rowboat and a motorboat and a helicopter, what more did you expect?"

:winkgrin:

[micah7:9]

 :laugh: Ain't that a real truth :dsunny: :laughing7:

[ed]

However, I see no harm in a man having a shot gun to protect his family.

What say you?

Regards

Jock.

I prefer the 1911.

[dajomaco]

Even if I have a gun for protection I would need some level of courage to kill someone.
The Holy Spirit could give courage to not use gun.
The Holy Spirit can give courage to use gun.

According to the bible there where early believers filled with the Holy Spirit
they did everything on Jabcats list.

I think that we should all do as our conscience allows and leave,
room for the Holy Spirit to amaze us.   

[Lazarus Short]

Like we do most everything else, let's look at this in terms of our basic theology.  Say, someone is banging around in your house in the middle of the night.  You grab your gun, get his attention, chamber a shell for emphasis, and tell him to leave.  He does not.  If you follow the ET theology, you blast him to Hell where he belongs.  If you're ED, you blast him into oblivion as he deserves.  If you believe in UR, you know that you will spend eternity with this person.  You therefore shoot him in the leg, so he can face the consequences of his actions and perhaps be corrected.  Police brutality, usually shooting to kill and not to incapacitate, may just be one of the consequences of ET theology.

[eaglesway]

Shooting to kill by police, is actually due to the policy that an officer should not shoot unless he believes there is a loss of life threat from the combatant. Wounding is not an option because it frequently does not work, and the officer is to protect his own life- not risk it by taking a difficult shot.

A Christian with a gun would not be trained in that way, but there is good reason for that kind of training, although obviously the police do not always follow their training.

[Jock]

James, your story about the guy on the roof made me think of H Katrina because those kinds of scenarios did happen. Your analogy was very good. God is our provider, at some point He will provide our death but in the meantime He may send 12 legions of angels or maybe a Chopper, or He may provide a 9mm. I think everybody should go before God, hopefully to know His will, which may be different for each of us?

Otherwise, we are just whistling in the wind. It shouldn't divide the brethren though.

Enough from me on this.

Regards

Jock.

[Jock]

ED, What is meant by:  I prefer the 1911. ?

[ed]

ED, What is meant by:  I prefer the 1911. ?

The M1911 is a single-action, semi-automatic, magazine-fed, recoil-operated pistol chambered for the .45 ACP cartridge. It served as the standard-issue sidearm for the United States Armed Forces from 1911 to 1986.

I joined the Army in 1986 and they were just phasing the 1911 out.  We trained with it and then switched to the Beretta 9mm.

Shot guns are actually the recommended weapon for home defense.  I have never owned one.

[Jock]

Thanks Ed, for the clarification. LOL, I was sitting here racking my brains about what took place in 1911.

Shalom :Peace2:

Jock

[marie glen]

I've always found it interesting that Jesus told the disciples (Lk 22:35,36) "when I sent you out w/o money, or packed bag" (paraphrased!) "did you lack anything? but now I tell you take money and a packed bag, and whoever hasn't a sword let him sell his garment and buy one.."

I'm thinking that's why Peter had a sword in Gethsemane.. but of course Jesus healed the guards ear Peter cut off.. but nevertheless.. I've wondered about that verse (36) to take a sword.. referring I guess(?) to perilous times?
:Peace2:

[Jock]

Yes Marie

In the garden of Gethsemane the Lord didn't want a small skirmish going on, He was going to die for the world. He didn't want to be arrested and accused of being a Zealot or something. Wouldn't the Sanhedrin just have loved that!

Before all this, the disciples lacked for nothing. But now, this is Jesus saying "I am going to my Father, you will need those things now because there are dangers and I won't be here" My paraphrase.

Shalom  Jock  :Peace2:

[Seth]

Makes me wonder why Paul was constantly being beaten down and never used a sword, and why none of the apostles recommended a good blade to defend themselves against persecution. Yet Peter said that this suffering was all part of the trial of their faith, more precious than gold. I think Jesus was speaking about a different kind of cloak and a different kind of sword, personally.

[Psalm91:4]

Re:  1911

I thought ed meant he preferred calling the first responders. ( dial 911 here for police etc )  and wondered why he would dial a 1 first.  :laugh:

Interesting thread, btw.