AFTER DELIVERY

[Lazarus Short]

Laz lifted this from another website:

In a mother's womb were two babies. One asked the other: "Do you believe in life after delivery?" The other replied, "Why, of course. There has to be something after delivery. Maybe we are here to prepare ourselves for what we will be later."
"Nonsense" said the first. "There is no life after delivery. What kind of life would that be?"

The second said, "I don't know, but there will be more light than here. Maybe we will walk with our legs and eat from our mouths. Maybe we will have other senses that we can't understand now."

The first replied, "That is absurd. Walking is impossible. And eating with our mouths? Ridiculous! The umbilical cord supplies nutrition and everything we need. But the umbilical cord is so short. Life after delivery is to be logically excluded."

The second insisted, "Well I think there is something and maybe it's different than it is here. Maybe we won't need this physical cord anymore."

The first replied, "Nonsense. And moreover if there is life, then why has no one has ever come back from there? Delivery is the end of life, and in the after-delivery there is nothing but darkness and silence and oblivion. It takes us nowhere."

"Well, I don't know," said the second, "but certainly we will meet Mother and she will take care of us."

The first replied "Mother? You actually believe in Mother? That's laughable. If Mother exists then where is She now?"

The second said, "She is all around us. We are surrounded by Her. We are of Her. It is in Her that we live. Without Her this world would not and could not exist."

Said the first: "Well I don't see Her, so it is only logical that She doesn't exist."

To which the second replied, "Sometimes, when you're in silence and you focus and you really listen, you can perceive Her presence, and you can hear Her loving voice, calling down from above." - Útmutató a Léleknek   

[bushy]

Ha ha, cute.

For us the question 'is there life after death' seems to be accepted by most people, but the real question is 'is there life before death?'

[Seth]

 :dsunny:

[eaglesway]

 :banana:

[joeteekay]

Real neat. It is interesting that a spiritual meaning can be gleaned from something so physical.
:thumbsup:

[marie glen]

 :dsunny: :dsunny: That's awesome! :)

[Lazarus Short]

Real neat. It is interesting that a spiritual meaning can be gleaned from something so physical.
:thumbsup:

Yup, first the physical, then the spiritual, just like brother Paul said.

[jbertonbounds]

For us the question 'is there life after death' seems to be accepted by most people, but the real question is 'is there life before death?'

Ooh, I like that!

[jbertonbounds]

We all have a first life (the physical) and will have a second life (the spiritual).
We all have a first death (the physical), but not all will have a second death.
Believers will never experience the second death, because they already have the second life before the first death.
Thanks to Jesus.

[Seth]

Maybe we here had a second death when we had our conversation with sin. Maybe that's why we don't experience it in the day of the Lord, because we were already humbled and called out to the Lord to be saved. Just a thought I've been having.

[RonnyTX]

Maybe we here had a second death when we had our conversation with sin. Maybe that's why we don't experience it in the day of the Lord, because we were already humbled and called out to the Lord to be saved. Just a thought I've been having.

Ronny to Seth:
Thinking along the same lines myself. For before I was born of God,I went up at church,believed everything the preacher told me and thought I had been saved. But 4 years later,God simply let me know I was lost,led me to repentance towards God and took me on to faith,in Jesus Christ. And in bringing me to repentance,God showed me my sin and let me compare that,to God and God's holiness. Well,for me, God showed me my sinful selfrighteousness.  And God certainly did a number on that,letting me see,that I was not good. And I like the way a verse in Amazing Grace puts it,because it is so true! :-) "Twas grace that caused my heart to fear and grace my fears relieved,how precious did that grace appear,the hour I first believed" :-) Then in the year after God saved me,I was back at the local church,that I grew up in and there,I again fell back some,into thinking I was better than those,who were not members of my church or those just like it. A year went by and I was back at the same Bible camp,where God had saved me the year before. And the youth teacher,for the whole week,he taught on nothing,but the sin of selfrighteousness! (ha) :-) And God used that,to again bring me to repentance,for my sinfullness.  So as best I see it,when needed,God both killed me and then raised me from the dead. :-) Too,the way I see it and know it in my own life,when I needed something burnt out of me,God burnt it out and when I needed something added on,God added on. But all these things done for me,at the time of God's choosing.

[Seth]

 :dsunny:

I've actually been thinking that when God saved us from those things, he saved us from our own second death. In other words he put our "second death" to death when we entered into the Spirit.

[jabcat]

Maybe we here had a second death when we had our conversation with sin. Maybe that's why we don't experience it in the day of the Lord, because we were already humbled and called out to the Lord to be saved. Just a thought I've been having.

I think you're right.  His Gift - old become new, new creation, new wineskins, sitting in the heavenlies - even "saints"!  ( I don't "feel" like a saint, but that's not what it's based on).  All His gift, all in His timing.  [Then I believe obedience, surrender, and growing in grace and knowledge as Paul puts it, has to do with reward and perhaps place/position of service - being an obedient child, not an ungrateful rebellious one.]   :2c:

:thumbsup:

[jabcat]

oh, and another one - "not appointed to wrath"..

[Seth]

 :dsunny:

[joeteekay]

Heb 9:27  And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

This expression "once to die"  is referring to spiritual death and not physical death IMO. Heb. 9:27 then goes on to say and after this there is judgement.

The CLV renders Heb. 9:27 this way : And, in as much as it is reserved to the men to be dying once, yet after this a judging.

To God, the physical life is less important than spiritual life. Let the dead bury the dead!  The flesh profits nothing.

There is a time span between the spiritual death and judgment of the Elect and the rest of mankind.

For the elect it says in I Pet. 4:17  For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

And we can find many scriptures referring to dying (death) to sin and not to a physical death.  Such as in:

Rom 6:3  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5  For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7  For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8  Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9  Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10  For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11  Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

  It is given for all of mankind to experience a death of the flesh (to sin) and thereby become a new creation, for the Elect (first fruits) now and the rest of mankind later in the WTJ.
   
We understand that God is a consuming fire through which He judges all humanity.

Rev: 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death

The second death does not apply to those born into the first resurrection. The second death is a part of the Lake of fire and the WTJ.  That is why we are told that when all flesh is gone there is no more need for death, and the last enemy to be destroyed is death. When death is gone, all that will be left is life.  God will be all in all. Wow.

[WhiteWings]

Heb 9:27  And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

That verse would have caused less misunderstanding if "once a year" was added.

This expression "once to die"  is referring to spiritual death and not physical death IMO. Heb. 9:27 then goes on to say and after this there is judgement.

The CLV renders Heb. 9:27 this way : And, in as much as it is reserved to the men to be dying once, yet after this a judging.

To God, the physical life is less important than spiritual life. Let the dead bury the dead!  The flesh profits nothing.

There is a time span between the spiritual death and judgment of the Elect and the rest of mankind.

Yeah, just a few hours.

[RonnyTX]

Love that story Lazarus :-) and know right where I want to post it,today! :-)

[eaglesway]

Heb 9:27  And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

This expression "once to die"  is referring to spiritual death and not physical death IMO. Heb. 9:27 then goes on to say and after this there is judgement.

The CLV renders Heb. 9:27 this way : And, in as much as it is reserved to the men to be dying once, yet after this a judging.

To God, the physical life is less important than spiritual life. Let the dead bury the dead!  The flesh profits nothing.

There is a time span between the spiritual death and judgment of the Elect and the rest of mankind.

For the elect it says in I Pet. 4:17  For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

And we can find many scriptures referring to dying (death) to sin and not to a physical death.  Such as in:

Rom 6:3  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5  For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7  For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8  Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9  Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10  For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11  Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

  It is given for all of mankind to experience a death of the flesh (to sin) and thereby become a new creation, for the Elect (first fruits) now and the rest of mankind later in the WTJ.
   
We understand that God is a consuming fire through which He judges all humanity.

Rev: 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death

The second death does not apply to those born into the first resurrection. The second death is a part of the Lake of fire and the WTJ.  That is why we are told that when all flesh is gone there is no more need for death, and the last enemy to be destroyed is death. When death is gone, all that will be left is life.  God will be all in all. Wow.

I would have to disagree about hebrews 9:27. I think it is clearly speaking of physical death and the judgment to come.


And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many,

Christ was offered through physical death

I agree that second death does not apply to those who rise in the first resurrection, whgich is what the writer, imo, is talking about in the second half of the verse, "will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him."

Rom 8:23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.



ἀποθανεῖν anapothanein

Here are a few of the 16 occurrences of the exact form of the word as it occurs in Hebrews 9:27. All clearly refer to physical death.

Matthew 26:35 V-ANA
GRK: σὺν σοὶ ἀποθανεῖν οὐ μή
NAS: I have to die with You, I will not deny
KJV: I should die with thee,
INT: with you to die no not

Luke 16:22 V-ANA
GRK: ἐγένετο δὲ ἀποθανεῖν τὸν πτωχὸν
NAS: the poor man died and was carried away
KJV: that the beggar died, and
INT: it came to pass moreover died the poor man

Luke 20:36 V-ANA
GRK: οὐδὲ γὰρ ἀποθανεῖν ἔτι δύνανται
NAS: even die anymore,
KJV: Neither can they die any more: for
INT: neither indeed die any more they can

John 4:49 V-ANA
GRK: κατάβηθι πρὶν ἀποθανεῖν τὸ παιδίον
NAS: before my child dies.
KJV: my child die.
INT: come down before dies the child

John 18:14 V-ANA
GRK: ἕνα ἄνθρωπον ἀποθανεῖν ὑπὲρ τοῦ
NAS: man to die on behalf
INT: for one man to perish for the

John 19:7 V-ANA
GRK: νόμον ὀφείλει ἀποθανεῖν ὅτι υἱὸν
NAS: He ought to die because
KJV: law he ought to die, because he made
INT: law he ought to die because Son

Acts 7:4 V-ANA
GRK: μετὰ τὸ ἀποθανεῖν τὸν πατέρα
NAS: his father died, [God] had him move
KJV: his father was dead, he removed him
INT: after died the father


STRONGS NT 599: ἀποθνῄσκω

ἀποθνῄσκω, imperfect ἀπέθνῃσκον (Luke 8:42); 2 aorist ἀπέθανον; future ἀποθανοῦμαι, Romans 5:7; John 8:21, 24 (see θνῄσκω); found in Greek writings from Homer down; to die (ἀπό, so as to be no more; (cf. Latinemorior; English die off or out, pass away); German absterben,versterben);
I. used properly

1. of the natural death of men: Matthew 9:24; Matthew 22:24; Luke 16:22; John 4:47; Romans 7:2, and very often; ἀποθνῄσκοντες ἀποθνῄσκοντες subject to death, mortal, Hebrews 7:8 (Buttmann, 206 (178)).

2. of the violent death — both of animals, Matthew 8:32, and of men, Matthew 26:35; Acts 21:13 etc.; 1 Peter 3:18 L T Tr WH text; ἐν φόνῳ μαχαίρας, Hebrews 11:37; of the punishment of death, Hebrews 10:28; often of the violent death which Christ suffered, as John 12:33; Romans 5:6, etc.

[WhiteWings]

I would have to disagree about hebrews 9:27. I think it is clearly speaking of physical death and the judgment to come.

I have no clue why that's so clear.  :dontknow:

The whole chapter is about the high priest (=the man) who goes into the HoH once a year on Atonement day.

The 'procedure' was as follows.
The high priest locks himself up in a special (small) room in the Temple complex for 7 days. 7 days of deep prayer. (=dies).
The high priest entered the HoH with several items. One of them was a bag that contained one white stone and once black stone. (lots)
The high priest took out a stone. Then God gave judgement. Jewish writings state that judgement was with a audible voice that could be heard with regular ears. No dreams or similar.

I'm 99% sure that is what happened hundreds of times. The priest never physically died. That's clear.
What's also clear is the judgement that was passed by God was not a judgement of  'the man' (=the high priest) but the whole nation. Those judgements are found in Jewish writings. The one in Atonement day preceding Jesus death was:

John 11:51 But he did not say this from himself, but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Yahshua was about to die on behalf of the nation,

In that same chapter (Heb 9) we also read that Jesus is the/our High Priest. We also read He entered the HoH. Blood etc. For me that means strong parallels are drawn between High Priest Jesus and other high priests.

Yes, Jesus literally died. So the same pattern shows a symbolic/spiritual death and a literal death. Whatever option we pick, maybe even both, we must follow the complete pattern. And that pattern clearly is nation wide. Not about individuals.

Another thing is the Atonement itself. While the high priest all were flawed men with impure blood accomplishing substandard Atonement, Jesus was perfect with pure blood. So an everlasting Atonement. IF that links to second death I would say it annuls second death because of the extreme atonement power.

Unlikely... but it's certainly not "clearly speaking" about it. At least not to me

:2c:

[micah7:9]

Liked the story Laz.

Yes I do believe that Heb. 9:27 speaks of the physical death, yet 1 Thes. 4:15 &17 speaks of "Then we which are alive and remain" is there an exception that some will not die?                             I do not know perhaps another subject.

For me I believe that Heb. 9:27 is speaking of death yes, and then judgment. Rom. 5:5 "For if we have become planted together in the likeness of His death,..." vs 11 "Thus you also, be reckoning yourselves to be dead, indeed..."

There is that physical death which should matter little and we await it and then  judgment, but the death I am over whelmed [baptized] in and that I am reckoning  to be, judgment is working now and is my concern. 1Pet. 4:17 the judgment begins in the house of God. And being judged now by His fire my hope, I will not be harmed by the
L of F... the second death.
For me the physical death is sure and quick, and maybe painful, but my reckoning myself to be dead, INDEED... well there is a great deal of suffering in my dying and because I am in the flesh my carnality always resuscitates me back to the reality I ain't dead yet. "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"
This is of course how I believe and only my opinion. :2c:

[eaglesway]

Jesus clearly died, and that is what the whole chapter is about.

vs12  He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

vs15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions

vs16 For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it.

vs17 For a covenant is valid only when men are dead,

vs25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often(as opposed to by one death),

vs26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often(as opposed to dying once) since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself(by death)

vs27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,

vs28 so Christ also, having been offered once(by death) to bear the sins of many,

IMO the context makes it quite clear, it is speaking of one death for man, and so also, meaning in the same manner, one death for Christ, speaking of the offering He as faithful high priest brought into the tabernacle, "once for all". The context is not about man's death, it is about the single all sufficient offering, Christ's death "once for all"  making our way into the tabernacle.

Same as Phil 2

Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man,
He humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!