How Does UR Reconcile God's Love with God's Wrath?

[RaiderGonzo]

Why Christian Universalism is Wrong

By Pastor-Theologian
Posted on January 10, 2012

The Nature of God: Loving and Just

Universalism prefers to emphasize God's love at the expense of God's wrath.  This view does injustice to the wrath of God since God's wrath is seen as part of God's glory.  For example, when God reveals himself to Moses in Exodus 34 he reveals not only his compassion and his covenant faithfulness, but also his judging of the sin of the people.  To minimize God's wrath one must also minimize God's compassion, his covenant faithfulness, and his forgiveness, all of which are also seen in this divine revelation.

To say that God must practice the same forgiveness he enjoins upon us overlooks two key notions: (1) God does forgive those who come to faith in Christ, and (2) it holds God to an impossible standard in that it expects God to sacrifice one aspect of his character at the expense of another.  To say that God's love and grace will supersede his judgment and wrath is to establish priorities in the attributes of God that Scripture does not support.

It is true that 1 John 4:8 and 16 use a predicate nominative subset construction to state that God is love.  Note, however that Hebrews 12:29 uses the same construction, in the context of a discussion of God's judgment against not just humanity but the entire created order (quoting the prophet Haggai) do emphasize that "God is a consuming fire."  This means that if God is "love" as part of his essential nature, then God must also be a God of wrath and judgment, too, as part of his essential nature.

God's moral attributes are tempered by his non-moral attributes.  That is, God's love must be an infinite love.  Likewise, his justice or his wrath, or his truth, must also be infinite.  The Westminster Shorter Catechism (WSC) expresses this correctly: "Q. 4: What is God? A: God is a Spirit, infinite, eternal, and unchangeable in his being wisdom, power, holiness, justice, goodness, and truth."  Each of these eight attributes is governed by the three states of infinity, eternality, and immutability.  With regard to this issue, both God's holiness and his justice are infinite and eternal, not just his love.  To give one priority over the other is to do injustice to the character of God as he is revealed in Scripture.  To alter these priorities to suit our own fallible notions of morality is to fashion a god simply to suit our own likings.

If one can say that we must subordinate divine justice to divine love why can we not do the opposite and subordinate divine love to divine justice?  While this is what the universalist accuses the traditionalist of doing, their accusation falls short of the mark.  The traditionalist recognizes that both God's love and God's judgments are attributes of God.  Since God is simple (in the philosophical sense) he must possess both of these attributes as part of his essential nature.  To subordinate one to the other in either direction is to throw God's nature out of balance and thus make God less than the God he has revealed himself to be.

The fact is, many of the arguments inherent in universalism revolve around the human notion of fairness which not only compels God to act solely in accordance with human understanding, it also overlooks the all-knowing justice of God by which he can judge each person in absolute righteousness since he knows all things including the human heart (John 2:24-25; Heb. 4:13).  It also ascribes to God an attribute absent in scripture.  While the Scriptures repeatedly describe God as "just," "righteous," and "holy," nowhere do they describe God as "fair," as we understand fairness.  So the EU, since he cannot see divine retribution as anything but unfair, applies human categories of fairness and then accuses God of injustice for his "righteous judgments."

But why is God unloving simply because he does not save all?  As B. B. Warfield has illustrated,[15] we might be rightfully angry with a doctor who could save everyone but didn't, but we would not necessarily be angry with a judge who refused to show mercy.  Indeed, we recognize that no criminal has the right to expect mercy and for us to demand mercy for them is overthrow the very idea of justice.

Though God has presented himself in healing terms (Isa. 53:5; Mal. 4:2), he does not present himself as such when it comes to salvation and condemnation.  Instead, he represents himself as a judge (e.g., Gen. 18:25) and Jesus claims the same authority of judgment for blessing or condemnation for himself under the Father's authority (John 5:26-29).

John 5:26-29: "For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of condemnation."

The implication in this passage is that the judgment is final and there is no change in destiny.

..

https://michaelrjones.wordpress.com/2012/01/10/why-christian-universalism-is-wrong/

:dontknow: Answers, please  :Chinscratch:

[watchman1706]

By a pastor-theologian who won't even sign his own name, how intellectually courageous.

It amazes me how many people who disagree with UR so vehemently spend sooo much time and effort in writing articles and tomes disagreeing with it. I would never invest my own time and thoughts in something I disagreed with so strongly. I would get on with my own life. I don't really care about what they think. I have already come to my position after much consideration, prayer, study and God's dealings. Why would people imagine I would change my position after reading their opinion. We each must walk our own road. I don't know why people even feel the need to post other peoples anti-UR opinions. They don't mean anything and have no power over the truth we already believe.

I think God is big enough and capable enough of reconciling his own feelings and emotions without my carnal opinions and imput.

I love these bananas

:banana: :banana: :banana:

[sheila]

.....because many fail to rightly divide the word[sword of His mouth] they err and condemn to eternal destruction

  those whom God worked redemption for..all of mankind. God showed in the scriptures through His dealings with Israel

  how when they disobeyed He would bring a nation more wicked against them for correction/discipline and lead them

to repentance/return to Him. And after,would destroy that very nation.

    when Adam and Eve disobeyed in the garden..eating from the tokogae.....evil become part of which they were to

partake and have knowledge of...culminating in death..as God judged. However,even during God's judgement at that time

He spoke of the woman's seed that would overcome the serpent/evil....and death.

   The Revelation of Christ concludes with the new deathless state,free from all evil/wickedness and its fruit..as having

  been consumed of God in the consummation of His restorative work. God with us!=reconciliation of all men.


  the writer of the op makes out God as a hypocrite...do what I say,not what I do.........he thinks God is like himself.


   Isaaih 57  the righteous perish and no-one ponders it in his heart,devout men are taken away and no-one understands

  that the righteous are taken away TO BE SPARED FROM EVIL.those who walk uprightly enter into peace,they find rest

as they lie in death...


   God made man upright,but he has sought out many imaginations.....


   

[RonnyTX]

Pastor:
(snip)But why is God unloving simply because he does not save all?  As B. B. Warfield has illustrated,[15] we might be rightfully angry with a doctor who could save everyone but didn't, but we would not necessarily be angry with a judge who refused to show mercy.  Indeed, we recognize that no criminal has the right to expect mercy and for us to demand mercy for them is overthrow the very idea of justice.(snip)

Ronny to Raider:
This has got me to just thinking here,about when I was born of God and God showed me mercy. :-) And I didn't even know I needed such,for I was a local church member,who truly believed,that I was already a Christian. Yet I wasn't. No,I was a lost sinner and God showed mercy to me. God poured out His love,grace and mercy upon me. :-) God let me know that I was lost. God compelled me to go to a man, who simply read some scripture to me. And as he did,I knew that God was there and God that was holy. And in contrast to that,God showed me my sinful selfrighteousness. God let me compare the two and that was the goodness of God,that led me to repentance. :-) And when I repented/agreed with what God showed me about myself,the love of God began to pour out upon me. :-) And God put a picture in my mind,of three crosses and I knew on that center cross,was Jesus Christ and that He was there for me, there taking my sins upon Himself. So God proved to me directly,just how greatly God did love me. :-) God showed and proved that too me,in how God saved me,in how I was born of God. And then I simply prayed and thanked God,for what He had just done for me. Then I went and told others,what God had just done for me and indeed,I could do no else. :-) And then the desire of my heart,was that every person have the same type of relationship with God,as I then had. God gave me that desire. :-) Then much later on,I was rereminded of the scripture that says,God shall give us the desires of our heart! :-)

So,before I was born of God,I was a criminal/sinner. Yet God had mercy on me. :-) And I didn't go out and search for God,for I didn't even know I needed to. I thought I was already a saved Christian. No, God came and searched me out and saved me. Which is how I know,that what God has done for me and for some,before all is said and done,God will do for all. :-) For it is by Gods love grace and mercy,that us criminals/sinners are saved/born of God and in that way,put back in a right relationship with God. It is all God's doing and that,because God/Jesus Christ is love! :-)

[Seth]

But why is God unloving simply because he does not save all?  As B. B. Warfield has illustrated,[15] we might be rightfully angry with a doctor who could save everyone but didn't, but we would not necessarily be angry with a judge who refused to show mercy.  Indeed, we recognize that no criminal has the right to expect mercy and for us to demand mercy for them is overthrow the very idea of justice.

I agree with the author of this article on one point: we should not base universal salvation on the notion that God is beholden to our own notions of fairness etc, that God should do what WE would do in his position. Nobody is to be saved because they have a "right" to it, or deserve it.

We might be angry with a doctor who could save everyone but didn't. Is that so? Because Jesus describes himself as a doctor:

Mark 2:17
On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

The author attempts to lay aside the comparison of the doctor (who has the ability but refuses to heal), but Christ himself upholds the metaphor between him and a doctor. It's pretty clear from the above scripture that Christ equates being a sinner with being sick, and himself with the ability to heal those who are sick in that manner.

He does say that he has not come to call the righteous, meaning those who have hard hearts will need to be humbled, of course. But the question is: does the Good Doctor have the ability to bring about such a condition of repentance and healing, or does he not?

Christ is either ABLE to heal even the most unrepentant, or he is UNABLE to heal them. Which is it?

If he says that Christ is UNABLE, he contradicts scripture which literally and clearly states that he is able: what seems impossible with man is possible with God. (Luke 18:27). If he says that Christ is ABLE but chooses not to heal the sick, then by his own words, and his own stated logic, the author has a right to be angry with God.

[dajomaco]

The (theologian) Says we have to allow for God's love and for his wrath.

God is going to pour out his wrath and indeed has already poured out his wrath.
Jesus suffered the wrath of God for all of humanity.

Jesus and what happened to him is the justice of God.

For the law produces wrath. And where there is no law, there is no transgression.

Much more then, since we have now been declared righteous by His blood, we will be saved through Him from wrath.

[WhiteWings]

By a pastor-theologian who won't even sign his own name, how intellectually courageous.

I think Michael R. Jones put his name in the website URL :-)

It amazes me how many people who disagree with UR so vehemently spend sooo much time and effort in writing articles and tomes disagreeing with it. I would never invest my own time and thoughts in something I disagreed with so strongly. I would get on with my own life. I don't really care about what they think. I have already come to my position after much consideration, prayer, study and God's dealings. Why would people imagine I would change my position after reading their opinion. We each must walk our own road. I don't know why people even feel the need to post other peoples anti-UR opinions. They don't mean anything and have no power over the truth we already believe.

I could argue the contrary. It's a duty to spread  the info. Many people in both OT and NT teach about God and often at the same time rebuking false doctrine.

Teaching and rebuking is virtually the same. If Gary defends/teaches UR he attacks everything not UR.

I don't really care about what they think. I have already come to my position after much consideration, prayer, study and God's dealings. Why would people imagine I would change my position after reading their opinion.

Did you really form your own opinion by Bible study only? Until that point you never read a commentary? You never listened to a sermon? You never discussed a verse with someone?

I think it's never good to assume 'you' found the right position. You simply do not have the right position unless you are God Himself. There are always good things that can be perfected, flaws that needs to be cut out and new things to be learned.

[dajomaco]

because the great day of Their wrath has come! And who is able to stand?"

Now to Him who is able to protect you from stumbling and to make you stand in the presence of His glory, blameless and with great joy,

[sheila]

...rather than the 'right' of man to be saved....to me it is all about God's right and Jesus right. God has rights to

   His creation and man.....of which He testifies he did not create for simply nothing[vanity] but for His spirit

  to inhabit. These 'rights' of redemption to work salvation by His own arm[Jesus the right hand of His throne

through the redemption cost done at the cross] and deliver man from evil bespeaks of His throne/Sovereignty.

  they miss the boat[Ark of HIS COVENANT] when they presume that the salvation of man has to do with the will

of man/sovereignty of man....and it is all about God and His Glory..the salvation of man IS THE GLORY OF GOD.

[Seth]

Yes. It's not of him who willeth or runneth but God who shows mercy. He does it not because the convict insists on mercy, but simply because he is God, and God is love, and love holds no record of being wronged.

[sheila]

 :thumbsup: Seth...God also has a 'right' to forgive...and extend mercy unto mankind.  man died without mercy under the law

  covenant..due to sin...and thus all men died.  His decision to show mercy and restore....was prophesied to by Him

  with the promised seed of the woman..Jesus Christ..thus all men shall live.   a 'better' covenant..

   yet even through all the OT times under the law..He did exercise mercy in His judgements as He willed. Prophesying

   through His prophets and testifying of this promised seed/Christ/Messiah..that would save His people from their sins

under the law covenant.   

[eaglesway]

The statement, "Universalism prefers to emphasize God's love at the expense of God's wrath", misses the point. The scripture clearly says that mercy triumphs over judgment.

James 2:13 For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.

God's wrath is God's wrath. He releases His wrath at the time appropriate to each individual situation. Some receive many stripes- some few stripes- according to their need.

The message  of universal reconciliation is that judgment is remedial, and that God's purpose in everything He does is restoration.

As the Psalmist says, Psalm 85:10 Lovingkindness and truth have met together; Righteousness and peace have kissed each other.

If wrath is a reflection of God's distaste for unrighteousness, mercy is the reflection of His ultimate cure for it.

[bushy]

The (theologian) Says we have to allow for God's love and for his wrath.

God is going to pour out his wrath and indeed has already poured out his wrath.
Jesus suffered the wrath of God for all of humanity.

dajomaco, I can't tell if you are saying Jesus suffered the wrath of God or the 'theologian' is saying it.

The way I see it, it was the love of God that put Jesus on the cross, not his wrath. There is a song sung by the Newsboys with the line 'when on that cross as Jesus died the wrath of God was satisfied'. I don't sing that anymore. Isn't God's wrath for turning us from our way onto the right path? The idea that he took His wrath out on Jesus means he is so mad he had to do something and since He loves us He made Jesus suffer in stead. Makes no sense.

[sheila]

...the angels that heralded His birth..did not speak of God's wrath...but peace and goodwill towards all men. Israel had

  been overcome..and was occupied by Rome....allowed as discipline from straying from God's way's[lost sheep of the house

  of Israel]...other men take your fields etc..covenant curses under law for disobedience.

    Sacrifice and offerings you did not desire..but in mercy I delighted.  God sent Jesus for the people to LISTEN TO HIM as

  the good shepherd..to recover the special relationship they had with God.To turn their hearts back unto the father's

   this is spoken of by Jesus in the parable of the vineyard and it's tenants..

     He died for the people's 'sin' in that the jewish leaders and elder's..priests etc refused to 'hear ye him!" having been

  so overcome of satan as to be offspring of vipers[corrupted image] to such an extent that they plotted to put Him to death.

   did not love and did not Know God...  never-the-less He willingly laid down His life..in order to take it up again....and

  even on the cross in torment...interceded with God for us...requesting  forgiveness....as they know not what they do..

    God the Father..gathered in through His son...all that put faith in Christ at that time...then extended His grace unto

   the gentile.   Because they said they had no sins...and rejected His son..of whom God worked forgiveness of sins and

  the taking away of them...Jesus told them they would die in their sin[full state] Paul received the revelation that all Israel

would be saved...and the receiving of them back in would be 'life from the dead" for they were spiritually dead to God..and

  would die in that state..but be recovered at the resurrection of the dead.


    Jesus Christ and the Holy spirit are olive branches offered of God unto man..that man may have eternal life[spirit]

   elder sons[church leaders] refused to go in..yet the sinners of the people[harlots/tax-collectors..even those 'dogs' the gentiles

   accepted and entered in before them.  They lost their national identity as God's special covenant people [see parable of

  vineyard] and the vineyard was given over to those who would give all the fruit[Christ take away all sin] .

   Jesus instructed His disciples.....your righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisee's and Sadducee's.

    If we sin against His olive branches[peace offering of God to us] we will die in our sins..if we 'hear ye Him-the word

  of God come in flesh..and hear what the Holy spirit speaks...we have life more abundantly now...and eternal life in the

  age to come.

[Seth]

The (theologian) Says we have to allow for God's love and for his wrath.

God is going to pour out his wrath and indeed has already poured out his wrath.
Jesus suffered the wrath of God for all of humanity.

dajomaco, I can't tell if you are saying Jesus suffered the wrath of God or the 'theologian' is saying it.

The way I see it, it was the love of God that put Jesus on the cross, not his wrath. There is a song sung by the Newsboys with the line 'when on that cross as Jesus died the wrath of God was satisfied'. I don't sing that anymore. Isn't God's wrath for turning us from our way onto the right path? The idea that he took His wrath out on Jesus means he is so mad he had to do something and since He loves us He made Jesus suffer in stead. Makes no sense.

I agree. I used to see the atonement as a matter of God "pouring out his wrath" upon Christ, but I don't see it that way now. No doubt that Christ received an outpouring of the wrath of man upon him as ordained of God on behalf of the world for our sin, but the Bible says that God himself was in Christ doing so. Both Father and Son were together on the cross reconciling the world for the purpose of love.

[sheila]

...having rejected peace with God through His 'olive branches" that He gave to the people......they remained in their

  unregenerated state of wickedness.[enmity with God].and at the mercy of the demons/satan that had led them into

captivity...and  persecuted those who did accept Christ...having been turned over unto satan for the destruction of their flesh....


    the jewish nation is hard pressed to prove their lineage through the flesh,now days.  DNA tests of their flesh

    have been disappointing.   from now on know ye no man after the flesh...spiritual DivineNatureActivated  through

   God's Ad[d]oil will reveal the son's of God.

   

     flesh and blood can not please Him..not even jewish flesh and blood...but the regeneration of the spirit in man,walking

   in the spirit[sons of the oil] can.

[jabcat]

The statement, "Universalism prefers to emphasize God's love at the expense of God's wrath", misses the point. The scripture clearly says that mercy triumphs over judgment.

James 2:13 For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.

God's wrath is God's wrath. He releases His wrath at the time appropriate to each individual situation. Some receive many stripes- some few stripes- according to their need.

The message  of universal reconciliation is that judgment is remedial, and that God's purpose in everything He does is restoration.

As the Psalmist says, Psalm 85:10 Lovingkindness and truth have met together; Righteousness and peace have kissed each other.

If wrath is a reflection of God's distaste for unrighteousness, mercy is the reflection of His ultimate cure for it.

:thumbsup:
--------
I'm open and willing to look at this wrath issue some more, and intend to Lord willing.  But I don't believe that whether we understand it or if it sets well with us or not is the bottom line/litmus test re: God's wrath.  I'm open to "what is the best definition of wrath", i.e., does it mean God was "mad", or something else..  but what does the scripture actually say (I honestly haven't gone to check prior to posting this)?  Does it say "God poured out man's wrath upon Jesus", or "God poured out HIS wrath?"... I believe it says the latter...

[Seth]

Which scripture are you referencing about God pouring out his wrath?

[jabcat]

you're right, it may be more of a summary/definition of ideas from multiple scriptures and views, rather than just one specific  single scripture.  I see a lot scriptures about God's wrath, mainly towards sin, but also directed at those doing the sins.  As far as salvation and wrath, there's this;  Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! (Rom 5:9)

So another thought might be, that God took His displeasure, wrath (even anger?), and the requirement for justice and perfect judgment, and placed that on Jesus.  Not that He was "mad" at Jesus, but again, that Jesus was the Sacrificial Lamb, Who became our sin.  And in that sense it was God's wrath placed on Jesus, just not [personally] against Him...

thinking...

[Seth]

Since the correlation of Jesus and lambs are so strong, I often wonder whether or not requiring an animal sacrifice was a way for God to satisfy his own justice, or simply remind them of their sin and provide a type and shadow of he manner by which Christ would provide deliverance from sin. Not every violation of the Law was punishable by physical death. Sometimes a lamb was simply sent out into the wilderness presumably to live a long happy life. To me it seems that the lambs are less a way for God to provide himself an outlet for justice, but a way to demonstrate the love of his son to come in the future. First, by binding Israelites to the memory of their sin through the sacrifices, then delivering on the promise of a final sacrifice (in Christ) to heal them from sin by the risen Spirit.

[Seth]

Either way I think of course we both agree that Jesus paid a heavy price to bring salvation to sinners like us, one for which he grieved in the garden of Gethsemene.  :HeartThrob:

[dajomaco]

I believe the wrath of God is the absence of God.
When man believes his sin has separated him from God,
he experiences the absence of God .
In the mind of man is where this separation takes place.
The full wrath of God is eternal separation.
This is where God has mercy.
We know sin separates.
I believe Jesus experienced or believed in his humanity,
that God would separate himself from the sin that Jesus bore for humanity.
The sin of unbelief.
My God my God why have you forsaken me.

God has forsaken no one.

[Seth]

Some people take Christ's quotation of Psalm 22 as evidence that God had foresaken him. I don't interpret it that way. I think Jesus was referencing a scripture that many people standing there would have recognized as a call for deliverance from David, one that Jesus was fulfilling in that hour, from the true enemy. For God was in Christ reconciling the world. Christ condemned sin in the flesh. He was not himself condemned by his father, but they both were doing the condemning of sin itself. Just the way I see it.

[jabcat]

we both agree that Jesus paid a heavy price to bring salvation to sinners like us, one for which he grieved in the garden of Gethsemene.

For God was in Christ reconciling the world. Christ condemned sin in the flesh. He was not himself condemned by his father, but they both were doing the condemning of sin itself.

yes, amen.

This is one I had in the back of my mind earlier and then kind of got confused about an exact verse of  "pouring out wrath on Jesus"...and just remembered this;     Is. 53:10  The Lord was pleased to bruise him;  He has put him to grief;  when he makes himself an offering for sin

Hard to understand.  But somehow, I believe it satisfied God's justice, or met the requirements to bring a cure?  Although I don't really grasp all the reasons, He chose it, and by doing so, reconciled Himself to us.

[Seth]

Yeah, I could see that God's wrath upon sin came down upon Christ in the form of a sin offering. It definitely wouldn't have happened except that God required it, that's for sure.