The role of believers

[Farlsborough]

Hi guys and girls! A lot of new threads from me recently, thanks for your replies. I have a long commute at the moment, so get to listen to a lot of sermons and do a lot of thinking, hence a lot of questions cropping up!

What I am thinking about at the moment is the role of believers. I have recently been speaking to a lot of people who hold a "reformed theology", and a theology of "all things redeemed". I find it odd that they should be so excited about "all of life redeemed", "all the kosmos redeemed", "all creation redeemed" etc. whilst not subscribing to UR; presumably they are looking forward to a perfected and redeemed universe which nevertheless is to be enjoyed by the small number of people who are chosen to escape eternal hellfire?!

Anyway, it got me thinking. I like what their theology spurs them on to - to try to bring all of life into harmony with God's will, God's law... to think about what it means to trade, to play, to educate, to invest, to produce and so on in a way which honours God. It's called the cultural mandate - the idea that the developments of humanity, although tainted by sin, can and will be redeemed and presumably "brought into the city" in some way at the conclusion of all things.

Thinking from a UR perspective though, we often seem to see "the kingdom", or the next age or whatever, as a time when those who truly follow Christ are unveiled, and when He returns to rule having "built an army" of overseers and judges in the body of Christ. The people of God then adjudicate, guide and serve the nations (which is sometimes "fiery" - ruling with a rod of iron!) until every knee bows and Christ can pass the kingdom to the Father, who will be all in all.

Now, I realise that there are no easy, obvious or straightforward answers, but I'd like to know what you all think about what the implications are for us who profess to be believers? I see it as something of a spectrum:

1) Similar to the reformed thinkers, only with a universal conclusion: it is our job as "the chosen" to, starting now, try to influence culture, promote ways of living that honour God etc. and generally try to steer human civilisation towards a direction that could forseeably last (in some way) into the next age. This IS how God is going to establish the kingdom.

2) Try to do similar to above, but on the understanding that there is going to be a great and fiery dissolution, that that whilst we may make some inroads, most of this work will come after Jesus' return, when believers will have received their glorified bodies. Most of what is achieved in this life is likely to be destroyed.

3) Separate ourselves, engage minimally in culture and let the pagans take care of themselves. Our job is to secure our own calling and salvation, and study the Word, with the aim of "winning the race" and being fit to receive our roles as servants and judges in the next age. Nothing significant from this world will last. The job of redeeming creation is almost all to be done in the next age, and what we expect is for this world to be at crisis point when He returns.


...and everything in between!

I can think of problems with each of them, and good points (and scriptural support) for all of them. I'd love to know whereabouts the forum members here fall on this  :Chinscratch:

[Shev]

Hello Farlsborough,

Interesting thoughts indeed! Personally, I believe that much of God's plan is veiled to us as to the particulars, and we are called to be faithful minute by minute and obedient to whatever the Spirit leads us to do, rather than seek an overall "manifesto" to walk according to, if that makes sense. I think the problem with all three options you presented is they encapsulate an overall human strategy that we would operate according to, whereas the Spirit truly does move in many mysterious, hidden ways, and we are simply called to follow the pillar of fire by night and cloud by day.

I like to say that we all have the same ministry: to be vessels full of the light of Christ, led by the Spirit. We are each like a different pattern of stained glass window, and we each are only given our individual beauty and relevance (in a sense) by the light of Christ that shines through each of us by the Spirit.

When it comes to overarching plans, it is always worth remembering that we are the body and Christ is the Head. It is the Head who has the plan, and communicates His orders to the body one step at a time. In a physical, earthly sense, if the head decides to walk somewhere, the head will communicate to the legs to move. The leg may not know where it is going, only that it must trust the head and operate according to its function. So it is with the Body of Christ. Not that Christ won't communicate certain things to us, but there are also certain things that it is not for us to know, such as times and seasons the Father has set within His own will as Jesus said in Acts 1.

It is easy as a believer to seek a niche and an identity within the Body, as so many do. "I am a preacher," "I am a prophet," "I am Apostle Prophet Reverend Doctor John Squiggle, BA, MA," etc etc. This can limit us though...I don't feel like I have a gift to evangelize, but I will never be closed off to the idea. God may use me one way today and another way tomorrow, and both ways combined with a third another day again - all that matters is that my identity is Christ, and I am seeking His will, day by day.

God bless!

[Seth]

My thought, first of all, is not to assume that anyone is chosen before finishing the race. Apostle Paul said that he was about to die but there was a crown laid up for him. That is what i believe we should be doing. I think our course of action is incredibly simple live by the two guidelines that John laid out: believe in Jesus and love your neighbor.

After all the harvest of believers is done I do believe that they will have a hand in judging the world as per the scripture, and I suspect that such a judgment is the sharing of the gospel so that all knees will bow. I see that displayed in Revelation 22 where the spirit and the bride say "come all you who are athirst a drink of the water life freely."

I think it's pointless to try to assume that the world now will look anything like it will after thus major event, so I don't believe in rounding up as many Christians as possible to try to make the world and to what we assume it will look like after that. I think if we simply believe in Christ and love our neighbor I think we are fulfilling what God desires. Personally speaking, I have my own work to to in that arena before I go around trying to conform the world to a vision that I don't have perfect clear vision to see.

[rosered]

Hello Farlsborough,

Interesting thoughts indeed! Personally, I believe that much of God's plan is veiled to us as to the particulars, and we are called to be faithful minute by minute and obedient to whatever the Spirit leads us to do, rather than seek an overall "manifesto" to walk according to, if that makes sense. I think the problem with all three options you presented is they encapsulate an overall human strategy that we would operate according to, whereas the Spirit truly does move in many mysterious, hidden ways, and we are simply called to follow the pillar of fire by night and cloud by day.

I like to say that we all have the same ministry: to be vessels full of the light of Christ, led by the Spirit. We are each like a different pattern of stained glass window, and we each are only given our individual beauty and relevance (in a sense) by the light of Christ that shines through each of us by the Spirit.

When it comes to overarching plans, it is always worth remembering that we are the body and Christ is the Head. It is the Head who has the plan, and communicates His orders to the body one step at a time. In a physical, earthly sense, if the head decides to walk somewhere, the head will communicate to the legs to move. The leg may not know where it is going, only that it must trust the head and operate according to its function. So it is with the Body of Christ. Not that Christ won't communicate certain things to us, but there are also certain things that it is not for us to know, such as times and seasons the Father has set within His own will as Jesus said in Acts 1.

It is easy as a believer to seek a niche and an identity within the Body, as so many do. "I am a preacher," "I am a prophet," "I am Apostle Prophet Reverend Doctor John Squiggle, BA, MA," etc etc. This can limit us though...I don't feel like I have a gift to evangelize, but I will never be closed off to the idea. God may use me one way today and another way tomorrow, and both ways combined with a third another day again - all that matters is that my identity is Christ, and I am seeking His will, day by day.

God bless!

     :thumbsup:      :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

 :dsunny:

[dajomaco]

The path of Love.
I believe my exploration of Love brings me close to the cause of Christ.

[Farlsborough]

Brilliant answers guys, thanks  :gimmefive:

[Tom]

Hi guys and girls! A lot of new threads from me recently, thanks for your replies. I have a long commute at the moment, so get to listen to a lot of sermons and do a lot of thinking, hence a lot of questions cropping up!

What I am thinking about at the moment is the role of believers. I have recently been speaking to a lot of people who hold a "reformed theology", and a theology of "all things redeemed". I find it odd that they should be so excited about "all of life redeemed", "all the kosmos redeemed", "all creation redeemed" etc. whilst not subscribing to UR; presumably they are looking forward to a perfected and redeemed universe which nevertheless is to be enjoyed by the small number of people who are chosen to escape eternal hellfire?!

Anyway, it got me thinking. I like what their theology spurs them on to - to try to bring all of life into harmony with God's will, God's law... to think about what it means to trade, to play, to educate, to invest, to produce and so on in a way which honours God. It's called the cultural mandate - the idea that the developments of humanity, although tainted by sin, can and will be redeemed and presumably "brought into the city" in some way at the conclusion of all things.

Thinking from a UR perspective though, we often seem to see "the kingdom", or the next age or whatever, as a time when those who truly follow Christ are unveiled, and when He returns to rule having "built an army" of overseers and judges in the body of Christ. The people of God then adjudicate, guide and serve the nations (which is sometimes "fiery" - ruling with a rod of iron!) until every knee bows and Christ can pass the kingdom to the Father, who will be all in all.

Now, I realise that there are no easy, obvious or straightforward answers, but I'd like to know what you all think about what the implications are for us who profess to be believers? I see it as something of a spectrum:

1) Similar to the reformed thinkers, only with a universal conclusion: it is our job as "the chosen" to, starting now, try to influence culture, promote ways of living that honour God etc. and generally try to steer human civilisation towards a direction that could forseeably last (in some way) into the next age. This IS how God is going to establish the kingdom.

2) Try to do similar to above, but on the understanding that there is going to be a great and fiery dissolution, that that whilst we may make some inroads, most of this work will come after Jesus' return, when believers will have received their glorified bodies. Most of what is achieved in this life is likely to be destroyed.

3) Separate ourselves, engage minimally in culture and let the pagans take care of themselves. Our job is to secure our own calling and salvation, and study the Word, with the aim of "winning the race" and being fit to receive our roles as servants and judges in the next age. Nothing significant from this world will last. The job of redeeming creation is almost all to be done in the next age, and what we expect is for this world to be at crisis point when He returns.


...and everything in between!

I can think of problems with each of them, and good points (and scriptural support) for all of them. I'd love to know whereabouts the forum members here fall on this  :Chinscratch:

I think "the role of believers" is simply "love your associate" (Leviticus 19:18; Romans 13:9; Galatians 5:14). To do that well I think we should be ready to explain the source of love that flows through us to our associates by sharing the truth of the word of God with them. God chose believers before the disruption of the world (Ephesians 1:4), but God is the savior of all mankind (1 Timothy 4:10). I think it's a good idea to know about the latest scientific evidence of God, like DNA, to defend the faith against atheists, and we should know about how the intentional mistranslation of scripture is used to support the deception of orthodox doctrine so we can help overcome the irrational fear of torture in fire forever and console those who have lost unbelieving family and friends with no expectation of seeing them again. I think it's all about simply being a willing channel of God's love.

[RonnyTX]

As I see it,I am to simply follow Jesus Christ and love my neighbor. And my neighbor,is everyone in this world. :-) As I see it,we,as in everyone from Adam on down,we are the offspring/children of God. It's just that some people don't know that yet;but they will and that coming for each person,at the time of God's choosing. :-) So I simply put it,follow Jesus Christ and love. :-)

[bushy]

Ronny,  :iagree:

[eaglesway]

I think that the role of the believer is encapsulated in the word "love", as in the two great commands, but God has given some direction in expressing that love in terms of the Lordship of Christ and the kingdom of God. As the body of Christ believers have various roles and diverse gifts for the purpose of "the building up of the body in love" and "speaking the truth in love"- increasing the kingdom of God by the foolishness of declaring the "euaggelion/good news" is also a big part of that- carrying the testimony that Jesus is Lord and that Jesus is reconciling all through the blood of His cross.