fiery refinement/purification vs. driven to repentance

[Farlsborough]

So, "when God's judgements are on the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness." However, we shall certainly only be saved through Christ (entering through the door, calling on His name and so on). It is only Christ who can redeem us.

So then, how are we to see the lake of fire? Subscribers to UR have described a process of fiery refinement, and God is pictured (and shadowed/typed) as a furnace, but doesn't scripture seem to indicate that this something for believers? And if God's "fire" is enough to purify someone to perfection, they are not in fact being saved through Christ, are they?

This would lead me to think that the lake of fire is more about the combination of the consequences of sin and God's judgement on evil doers (i.e. all) being brought to bear on someone, such that they then do ultimately accept Christ's sacrifice. But this does seem different to being "burnt clean", which is more of a purgatorial process.

Does anyone see what's confusing me here... the mechanism of salvation for all... being driven to repentance, or being (painfully) "refined"? Or is it a combination of the two? Because one seems to be "only through Christ", and one doesn't, but the one that does seems to fit a picture of fiery refinement less well...  :dontknow:

[WhiteWings]

So then, how are we to see the lake of fire? Subscribers to UR have described a process of fiery refinement, and God is pictured (and shadowed/typed) as a furnace, but doesn't scripture seem to indicate that this something for believers? And if God's "fire" is enough to purify someone to perfection, they are not in fact being saved through Christ, are they?

The wages of sin is endless death. Jesus paid the price to make resurrection possible
Father shows mercy on all but at the same time sin won't enter heaven.
That's where purification comes in.


1 Corinthians 11:32  and being judged by the Lord, we are chastened .... => We are judged by being chastened.
Titus 2:11-12  For the saving grace of God was manifested to all men, teaching us, that .... => Teaching is the grace of God.
Revelation 20:10  .... and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. => the result of judgement

Teaching + Chastened
paideu,w paideuo {pahee-dyoo'-o}
Meaning: 
to train children
to be instructed or taught or learn
to cause one to learn
to chastise
to chastise or castigate with words, to correct
of those who are moulding the character of others by reproof and admonition
of God
to chasten by the affliction of evils and calamities
to chastise with blows, to scourge
of a father punishing his son
of a judge ordering one to be scourged

Grace
ca,rij charis {khar'-ece}
Meaning: 
grace
that which affords joy, pleasure, delight, sweetness, charm, loveliness: grace of speech
good will, loving-kindness, favour
of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues
what is due to grace
the spiritual condition of one governed by the power of divine grace
the token or proof of grace, benefit
a gift of grace
benefit, bounty
thanks, (for benefits, services, favours), recompense, reward

Judged
kri,nw krino {kree'-no}
Meaning: 
to separate, put asunder, to pick out, select, choose
to approve, esteem, to prefer
to be of opinion, deem, think, to be of opinion
to determine, resolve, decree
to judge
to pronounce an opinion concerning right and wrong
to be judged, i.e. summoned to trial that one's case may be examined and judgment passed upon it
to pronounce judgment, to subject to censure
of those who act the part of judges or arbiters in matters of common life, or pass judgment on the deeds and words of others
to rule, govern
to preside over with the power of giving judicial decisions, because it was the prerogative of kings and rulers to pass judgment
to contend together, of warriors and combatants
to dispute
in a forensic sense
to go to law, have suit at law
[/quote]

Tormented
928 basani,zw basanizo {bas-an-id'-zo}
Meaning: 
to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the color of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
=> gold..silver... He is a refiners fire...


Judged => Chastened => Teaching => Grace
God corrects His children by teaching them, so He can approve them with love

[Tom]

So, "when God's judgements are on the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness." However, we shall certainly only be saved through Christ (entering through the door, calling on His name and so on). It is only Christ who can redeem us.

So then, how are we to see the lake of fire? Subscribers to UR have described a process of fiery refinement, and God is pictured (and shadowed/typed) as a furnace, but doesn't scripture seem to indicate that this something for believers? And if God's "fire" is enough to purify someone to perfection, they are not in fact being saved through Christ, are they?

This would lead me to think that the lake of fire is more about the combination of the consequences of sin and God's judgement on evil doers (i.e. all) being brought to bear on someone, such that they then do ultimately accept Christ's sacrifice. But this does seem different to being "burnt clean", which is more of a purgatorial process.

Does anyone see what's confusing me here... the mechanism of salvation for all... being driven to repentance, or being (painfully) "refined"? Or is it a combination of the two? Because one seems to be "only through Christ", and one doesn't, but the one that does seems to fit a picture of fiery refinement less well...  :dontknow:

I think those chosen "before the disruption of the world" (Ephesians 1:4), who are called out of all nations to be the "ecclesia," "the body of Christ," are saved "in grace through faith" (Ephesians 2:8,9), and will be snatched away to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17) more than a thousand years before the dead are raised to be judged according to their acts before the "great white throne" and then cast into "the lake of fire" which is "the second death." I think it will be Christ who sits on the "great white throne." So those judged before the "great white throne" will be "saved through Christ" by judgment not faith, but they will also be "saved through Christ" because Christ's blood on the cross reconciles all on earth and in the heavens meaning all God's creatures.

"We rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers" (1 Timothy 4:10).

"Through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20).

"Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all" (1 Corinthians 15:20-28).

[rosered]

So, "when God's judgements are on the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness." However, we shall certainly only be saved through Christ (entering through the door, calling on His name and so on). It is only Christ who can redeem us.

So then, how are we to see the lake of fire? Subscribers to UR have described a process of fiery refinement, and God is pictured (and shadowed/typed) as a furnace, but doesn't scripture seem to indicate that this something for believers? And if God's "fire" is enough to purify someone to perfection, they are not in fact being saved through Christ, are they?

This would lead me to think that the lake of fire is more about the combination of the consequences of sin and God's judgement on evil doers (i.e. all) being brought to bear on someone, such that they then do ultimately accept Christ's sacrifice. But this does seem different to being "burnt clean", which is more of a purgatorial process.

Does anyone see what's confusing me here... the mechanism of salvation for all... being driven to repentance, or being (painfully) "refined"? Or is it a combination of the two? Because one seems to be "only through Christ", and one doesn't, but the one that does seems to fit a picture of fiery refinement less well...  :dontknow:

  I like what Tony /ww and Tom have said
 
I  believe  that satan is last for the destruction of all flesh and that is why the great show down  comes   in Rev   19  and    20  the   great supper of God

   the false prophet / all liars     and beast  carnal  power is contained already in the Fire of Gods consuming   For "our God is an all-consuming fire."

   the loosing for the little season is for the destruction of all flesh    , no flesh pleases God and     satan is  given  all flesh   for its destruction  so  the Spirit will be saved in the Day of the Lord

   the last  great  mystery  revealed  Hear what the Spirit is saying   
   this gospel shall be preached to all the ends of the earth   


satan loosed to destroy       the flesh in the great gathering      Rev 20:8       And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

till the sea is no more ,,,   the seas are the may tongues and nations and peoples   all flesh will be  before  God

  Mic 5:4   And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth.
Zec 9:10   And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.

Act 13:47   For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

lRom 10:18   But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

   the LIGHT IS SHINING  /GOD Spirit is all   power and strength      and no more place for the flesh !   those cast into the fires of Gods correction have no more  place  for sin    being error to   manifest    and corrupt   ever again

  the end of all flesh has come before Him , Just as the days of Noah !
  first all  flesh  destroyed  by water and second  time  by Fire

    the old  testimony and the new  testimony  /Witnesses 
 
  thousand years twice told     ecc 6 ;6 5"It never sees the sun and it never knows anything; it is better off than he


. 6"Even if the other man lives a thousand years twice and does not enjoy good things-- do not all go to one place?" 7All a man's labor is for his mouth and yet the appetite is not satisfied.

   Psa 90:4   For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.
God Is Eternal, and We Are Not
A prayer of Moses, the man of God.

90 Lord, you have been our ·home [dwelling place; Deut. 33:27]
    ·since the beginning [L from all generations].
2 Before the mountains were born
    and before you ·created [brought forth] the earth and the world,
you are God [Prov. 8:22–31].
    You have always been, and you will always be.
3 You turn people back into ·dust [L what is crushed; Gen. 2:7; 3:19; Eccl. 12:7].
    You say, "·Go back into dust [L Return; Turn back], human beings."
4 ·To you [L In your eyes], a thousand years
    is like the passing of a day [2 Pet. 3:8],
    or ·like a few hours [L a watch; C the night was divided into four watches of three hours each] in the night.
5 While people sleep, you ·take [put an end to] their lives.
    They are like grass that ·grows up [is new] in the morning.
6 In the morning they ·are fresh and new [blossom and are renewed],
    but by evening they ·dry up [fade] and ·die [wither].
7 We are ·destroyed [annihilated] by your anger;
    we are terrified by your hot anger.
8 You have ·put [set] ·the evil we have done [our guilt/iniquity] right in front of you;
    ·you clearly see our secret sins [L our hidden/secret sins in the light of your face].
9 All our days pass while you are angry.
    Our years end with a ·moan [sigh].
10 ·Our lifetime is [L The days of our years are] seventy years
    or, if we are strong, eighty years.
But ·the years are full of [L their pride are] ·hard work [toil] and ·pain [trouble; Eccl. 1:2].
    They pass quickly, and then we ·are gone [L fly away].
11 Who knows the ·full power [strength] of your anger?
    Your anger is as great as our fear of you should be.
12 ·Teach us [Make us know] ·how short our lives really are [L to count our days]
    so that we ·may be wise [L gain a wise heart].
13 Lord, how long before you ·return [turn]
    and show ·kindness [compassion] to your servants?
14 ·Fill [Satisfy] us with your ·love [loyalty] every morning.
    Then we will sing and rejoice all our ·lives [L days].
15 We have seen years of ·trouble [harm; hurt].
    Now give us as ·much [L many days of] joy as you gave us ·sorrow [affliction].
16 Show your servants ·the wonderful things you do [your miracles];
    ·show your greatness [your splendor/beauty] to their children.
17 Lord our God, ·treat us well [favor us].
    ·Give us success in what we do [L Establish the work of our hands for us];
·yes, give us success in what we do [L establish the work of our hands].

THE WHOLE WORD   IS TESTIFYING OF THE SAME THINGS,  ALL THINGS      past present and future     God will be all in all 

[Seth]

So, "when God's judgements are on the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness." However, we shall certainly only be saved through Christ (entering through the door, calling on His name and so on). It is only Christ who can redeem us.

So then, how are we to see the lake of fire? Subscribers to UR have described a process of fiery refinement, and God is pictured (and shadowed/typed) as a furnace, but doesn't scripture seem to indicate that this something for believers? And if God's "fire" is enough to purify someone to perfection, they are not in fact being saved through Christ, are they?

This would lead me to think that the lake of fire is more about the combination of the consequences of sin and God's judgement on evil doers (i.e. all) being brought to bear on someone, such that they then do ultimately accept Christ's sacrifice. But this does seem different to being "burnt clean", which is more of a purgatorial process.

Does anyone see what's confusing me here... the mechanism of salvation for all... being driven to repentance, or being (painfully) "refined"? Or is it a combination of the two? Because one seems to be "only through Christ", and one doesn't, but the one that does seems to fit a picture of fiery refinement less well...  :dontknow:

I believe the lake of fire is metaphysical death. When Jesus says "let the dead bury the dead" I believe the lake of fire represents that instance of death in sin. The Bible says that God is a consuming fire, but look in Deuteronomy 24 when it says that Moses is warning them that God is a jealous God, and that he will turn them over to slavery if they worship idols. The implication is that he will burn the house down, send them into slavery until they repent. After all, in the same passage, he says that Egypt is a smelting fire. Smelting was the process of extracting the metal from the surrounding ore. So, Egypt is a refining fire. I could see that because all those years in Egypt prepared them for a desire for freedom. And yet, when they left Egypt, they desired to return. Isn't that just like sin? We are delivered from bondage but sometimes desire to return? Indeed, when Israel was sent into Babylon, what happened after 70 years? They repented.

Before anyone repents, they start with a DESIRE to repent. What better to create that desire than to finally understand the consequences of sin? It happened to me.

That is what I believe the purpose of the Lake of Fire, that death in sin causes a thirst for God, a thirst for life, and that is what will occur in the day of The Lord, salvation from death. The purpose of God's Bride, is to say, along with the Spirit: "come drink the water of life freely." That water of life is what saved them from death in the previous life, and then they will be sharing it with the rest of the world.

More about that here, if interested: http://mercifultruth.com/links-savedbygrace.html

[eaglesway]

While believers are refined by fire, which is an expression of the trials and tribulations(dealings) in life  that God brings us through in order to purify our faith and mature us in the divine nature and in the priesthood of believers, the lake of fire is designed for correction of the rebellious, unbelievers.

The lake of fire is only spoken of in the context of corrections upon the rebellious in the age to come. There is no reference to it anywhere that does not include a reference to the punishment and correction of the unbelievers or hypocrites or the devil and his angels.

[micah7:9]

While believers are refined by fire, which is an expression of the trials and tribulations(dealings) in life  that God brings us through in order to purify our faith and mature us in the divine nature and in the priesthood of believers, the lake of fire is designed for correction of the rebellious, unbelievers.

The lake of fire is only spoken of in the context of corrections upon the rebellious in the age to come. There is no reference to it anywhere that does not include a reference to the punishment and correction of the unbelievers or hypocrites or the devil and his angels.

:iagree: And I might add I do not believe there is a "driving" to repentance but rather Brought to. imo

[Seth]

While believers are refined by fire, which is an expression of the trials and tribulations(dealings) in life  that God brings us through in order to purify our faith and mature us in the divine nature and in the priesthood of believers, the lake of fire is designed for correction of the rebellious, unbelievers.

The lake of fire is only spoken of in the context of corrections upon the rebellious in the age to come. There is no reference to it anywhere that does not include a reference to the punishment and correction of the unbelievers or hypocrites or the devil and his angels.

I agree. If one finds himself in the LOF, it means he has not yet come into the kingdom.

[WhiteWings]

The lake of fire is only spoken of in the context of corrections upon the rebellious in the age to come.

Not so. It's just the first time it's called by that names. Which is one of many. Lot's of things had/have several names/descriptions. (Jesus has 200+)

Exo 30:19 Aaron and his sons are to wash their hands and feet with water from it.

- There always needs to be a witness of a verse/concept. Without it a verse/concept can be considered as not existing.
- A very large part of Revelation is following the pattern of the daily Temple service.
- Revelation uses many things (altars, incense, etc) found in the literal Temples.
- All animal sacrifices were washed with its water. -> Animals of the clean type.

Combine that with all the names and meanings that were linked to the laver, water and brimstone it's imo without any support it's only for unbelievers. Unless you count (high) priests among the unbelievers. It was even only used for the happy few. The average believing Jew never used it. They just baptized (mikvah) themselves in the living water of rivers.

:2c:

[micah7:9]

 valley of Jehoshaphat.....lake of fire.....judgment.

[Farlsborough]

WhiteWings and Micah7:9, would you care to elucidate/suggest some resources to explore what you allude to?

[eaglesway]

The lake of fire is only spoken of in the context of corrections upon the rebellious in the age to come.

Not so. It's just the first time it's called by that names. Which is one of many. Lot's of things had/have several names/descriptions. (Jesus has 200+)

Exo 30:19 Aaron and his sons are to wash their hands and feet with water from it.

- There always needs to be a witness of a verse/concept. Without it a verse/concept can be considered as not existing.
- A very large part of Revelation is following the pattern of the daily Temple service.
- Revelation uses many things (altars, incense, etc) found in the literal Temples.
- All animal sacrifices were washed with its water. -> Animals of the clean type.

Combine that with all the names and meanings that were linked to the laver, water and brimstone it's imo without any support it's only for unbelievers. Unless you count (high) priests among the unbelievers. It was even only used for the happy few. The average believing Jew never used it. They just baptized (mikvah) themselves in the living water of rivers.

:2c:

IMO the bronze laver has nothing to do with the LOF symbolicly or otherwise(except that they are both reservoirs). I think it parrallels baptism, and the submission/sanctification of will necessary to move from the outer court into the holy place.

Since it clearly says that the LOF is for those whose names are not written in the Lambs book of life in Rev 20, I would say there is at least some obvious support for the idea that the LOF is for the correction of the rebellious post GWT.

I personally think that the LOF and Gehenna and the aionian fire that Jesus speaks of in Mt 25:41 and the fire and brimstone of rev 14 are all the same, but that is not provable. Even so, in every case these are all connected to consequences of unbelief, hypocrisy, etc.

No believer/disciple need worry about the LOF or Gehenna, because the blood of Christ is sufficient to cover every sin, as long as faith and love abide.

[rosered]

So then, how are we to see the lake of fire? Subscribers to UR have described a process of fiery refinement, and God is pictured (and shadowed/typed) as a furnace, but doesn't scripture seem to indicate that this something for believers? And if God's "fire" is enough to purify someone to perfection, they are not in fact being saved through Christ, are they?

  Hello  Farlsborough,

  I believe the problem is everyone wants a quick easy and solid answer  and there is none .

     God deals with each one of us  differently .

We all are born of one nature   that is an   anti Christ   , If you would consider Christ is the wisdom and Knowledge of God    and the mercy and grace of God

and the nature of Old Adam   is lacking  everything that Jesus Christ represents  or Symbolizes     

The Bible is full of symbolism      , but we have literal thinkers      , it is the carnal nature   trying to understand the   things of God      , but they never will ''get it ''

  they are   shut  out  in the dark about   the Light , but its always available to them , because everyone is given a measure of faith    , God is fair that way  , but its how you apply it and use it  , ,  An example , you being a doctor  , If   someone   knows there is a doctor  close by   and yet never goes to one  , even if they are in need of one   and don't even believe in a doctor to help them
  How can you do your job ?  or How can you benefit   them  at all ?   

  Its when they  have no choice in the matter but desperately are in need of one  , do they even acknowledge  you ,
  Same with the LAKE OF FIRE       , they will have no more choice   , but to acknowledge  Jesus Christ , because every knee will bow   ,  that is a  metaphor     for

surrender  and every tongue will confess Christ     in the end   ,   they may have lived their whole life in the flesh  as only flesh and blood and never inherit  any thing  of God 

But that is the error /sin    in my opinion     our mortal life is  but a  drop in the ocean      ,a drop alone does not even begin to  compare to the Ocean



  and there is the great need to be born again    of the Spirit  and truth . being made a new creature in Christ      , this is the one that  does the will of God

and  does please God by its very  nature  , I do believe the  lake of  fire   will  cause   those   seeds to open and come forth   as new  creature that endure the fire

  by the very nature of God  He is the consuming Fire and   to read of the descriptions       the Holy Spirit and Fire are what do   bring Knowledge of God   being the Light   of the world and  Love of God for His creation  and the purification process     to make all things new
  the old  nature and  evil found in them are  done away with in Christ

  Some now as they walk in the Spirit   and some when the end comes and they have no  more choice  but to walk in the Spirit   because the mortality   in death  is the end     and last enemy 

  death is swallowed up in Life and in Christ    , He is the Victory 


Colossians 1   is a very powerful    testimony when you begin to understand it    , it should give you a great  comfort     to be able to ''grasp''    the magnitude

  of Gods  plan for the salvation of all      and God never fails His plan  and its though Jesus Christ alone      , I for one believe  mankind has  some    false  wisdom that thinks its some how up to Him    to save    the world and himself    , this to me is the biggest lie ever told      , there is no obedience in mankind  , the scriptures testify   that its an enemy  of  the cross and Jesus Christ    and the only way  you can ever understand the Will of God  though Jesus christ is to be made a new creature in Christ      and that is the plan of God   that never fails  . we put our  trust and faith in   this hope   and not of ourselves

  that is the main difference   between the UR  faith     by the wisdom given from above  by Jesus Christ   and Gathering into Him  and the mainstream faith  of Christendom  whose wisdom is from below and   anti Christ and the scattering   and dividing   , the earthly   ''religion ''  is full of    judgments  , the   whole world is on fire  in the metaphorical sense of the word     and Jesus Christ come to set it on fire  and divide it and conquer it    [Luke 12 :49]
we wait on the Lord  with patience

Colossians 1 The Preeminence of Christ

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.


16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.


17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.


18 And rhe is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.


19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.
21 And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds,


22 he has now reconciled bin his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimedhin all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.
   

[rosered]

Does anyone see what's confusing me here... the mechanism of salvation for all... being driven to repentance, or being (painfully) "refined"? Or is it a combination of the two? Because one seems to be "only through Christ", and one doesn't, but the one that does seems to fit a picture of fiery refinement less well...  :dontknow:

   Well think about it   Farl  ,

    I do not think your assessments are a fair     conclusion   sir

      Being of the world  , you will love your own and being    in Christ , you will be rejected of the world   

               you are going to suffer one way or the other         Jesus come so you could have    His peace and joy and abundant life now , not having to wait till you literally die , like back in the Old testament and those dying in faith and not receiving     
  Here is the      beautiful scriptures to explain  that all are made for Gods Glory     and we will all suffer  here  for  and in Christs sufferings    or for sin that simple

   


  1 Peter 3   16and keep a good conscience so that in the thing in which you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ will be put to shame.


17For it is better, if God should will it so, that you suffer for doing what is right rather than for doing what is wrong.


18For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;


19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison,

20 because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.

21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,


22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.

  Do you understand how   this applies to us now ?      those all were baptised unto death    and Jesus preached to them in prison being disobedient , means those  are now subject to Him     , whom were and  even now is   subject to Him ,   and those that will be       means ALL      , ALL IS ALL
I do not think most people can ever understand   or even begin to "grasp "   the Power of the Cross of Jesus CHRIST   , It changed    everything !!!

Jesus Christ abolished death    on His Cross    and tasted death for every man       and now all things are subject to  His authority     He owns all  things 


2 Tim 1 8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel by the power of God,   

9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

10 and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,


11 for which I was appointed a preacher and apostle and teacher, 12 which is why I suffer as I do.


But I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed, and I am convinced that he is able to guard until that Day what has been entrusted to me.


13 Follow the pattern of the sound words that you have heard from me, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.


14 By the Holy Spirit who dwells within us, guard the good deposit entrusted to you.

[Tom]

So, "when God's judgements are on the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness." However, we shall certainly only be saved through Christ (entering through the door, calling on His name and so on). It is only Christ who can redeem us.

So then, how are we to see the lake of fire? Subscribers to UR have described a process of fiery refinement, and God is pictured (and shadowed/typed) as a furnace, but doesn't scripture seem to indicate that this something for believers? And if God's "fire" is enough to purify someone to perfection, they are not in fact being saved through Christ, are they?

This would lead me to think that the lake of fire is more about the combination of the consequences of sin and God's judgement on evil doers (i.e. all) being brought to bear on someone, such that they then do ultimately accept Christ's sacrifice. But this does seem different to being "burnt clean", which is more of a purgatorial process.

Does anyone see what's confusing me here... the mechanism of salvation for all... being driven to repentance, or being (painfully) "refined"? Or is it a combination of the two? Because one seems to be "only through Christ", and one doesn't, but the one that does seems to fit a picture of fiery refinement less well...  :dontknow:

Scripture says "the lake of fire" is "the second death."

"And death and the unseen were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death--the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:14)

Scripture also says the dead know nothing.

"For the living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever" (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

So I think the judgment before the great white throne is when unbelievers will be corrected.

I think the problem is that folks confuse what scripture says about the Adversary, the wild beast, and the false prophet with that of the mortals.

"And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons." (Revelation 20:10)

The important thing to remember is that death will be abolished.

"The last enemy is being abolished: death." (1 Corinthians 15:26)

Then all mankind will be saved from death.

[dajomaco]

 Hello  Farlsborough,

  I believe the problem is everyone wants a quick easy and solid answer  and there is none .

     God deals with each one of us  differently .

:iagree: :iagree:

[RonnyTX]

So, "when God's judgements are on the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness." However, we shall certainly only be saved through Christ (entering through the door, calling on His name and so on). It is only Christ who can redeem us.

So then, how are we to see the lake of fire? Subscribers to UR have described a process of fiery refinement, and God is pictured (and shadowed/typed) as a furnace, but doesn't scripture seem to indicate that this something for believers? And if God's "fire" is enough to purify someone to perfection, they are not in fact being saved through Christ, are they?

This would lead me to think that the lake of fire is more about the combination of the consequences of sin and God's judgement on evil doers (i.e. all) being brought to bear on someone, such that they then do ultimately accept Christ's sacrifice. But this does seem different to being "burnt clean", which is more of a purgatorial process.

Does anyone see what's confusing me here... the mechanism of salvation for all... being driven to repentance, or being (painfully) "refined"? Or is it a combination of the two? Because one seems to be "only through Christ", and one doesn't, but the one that does seems to fit a picture of fiery refinement less well...  :dontknow:

Ronny to Farlsborough:
I believe it's a combination of the two,as best I understand,what you're saying.

With me,God first had to let me know,that I was lost. That I was not in a right relationship with God. So how can any person be brought to God,until they first are let to know,that they're not in a right relationship with God? Now we can tell people,that they're lost,not in a right relationship with God;but then,only God can truly tell a person that,so that they know such is true.


After God,let me know I was lost,then God simply led me to a person,who read some scriptures to me. And as they did that,I knew it was not only this man and myself who were there;but I also knew and was caused to focus on,that I was in the presence of God,holy God. So God let me see myself and my sinful selfrighteousness and that in comparison to God and God's holiness. And as the scripture well puts it, that was the goodness of God,that led me to repentance. :-) That is,God caused me to see,what I needed to see,both about myself and God. And I agreed with all God showed me. So yes,God drove me to repentance and yes,it was a painful thing for me. And oh yes,you could easily put it,that it was God refining me. And God did that for me,for my own good. :-)

Just as soon as God had brought me to repentance towards God,the love of God,began to flow out upon me. :-) And God put a picture in my mind,of three crosses. And I knew on the center cross,was Jesus Christ. And I knew He was there for me,that taking my sins,upon Himself. :-) That was how God saved me,that was how I came to see my sinfullness,agree with God about that and it's how I came to know, of God/Jesus Christ's,great love for me. :-) Now as I see it,what God has done for me and for some others, God will do the same,for all people; :-) but the timing for that coming to each person,being at the time of God's choosing.

After I was born of God,I slipped back into some of my old ways of thinking,that I was better than some people. And God again,burnt that selfrighteous sinfullness out of me. Now that,was not an easy thing,to go through;but God did such for me,for my own good. And later on,God did the same for me,when I came to hate a particular person,because they had terribly hurt someone,who I dearly loved.

So the thing is,God continues to correct/refine us,after we are born of God. Sometimes those refinings, are painful,very painful;but,they are God's gift to us and always,for our own good. And sometimes God refines/teaches us,in much more pleasant ways. :-) But either way,it is God doing such for us and for our own good. And whether it be in this age or the next,I can't but see God doing the same,for everyone. For God will put into us all,that which we need and God will take out of us all,that which needs taking out. And the taking out part,sometimes that means a burning out,a refining in a lake of fire,to get out of us, that which needs getting out. So however God chooses to do that,in my or any person's life,such is always for our own good and because of the love of God/Jesus Christ,for each and everyone of us! :-)