A Specific Event of Being Saved, or All Already Included

[jabcat]

As a newbie on here, and only in UR for the past year, something has gotten my attention and actually has been troubling me lately.  It seems that within the UR community there are different interpretations of what being a believer means.  I'm offering my understandings of what I perceive, admitting I may be not fully understanding what others think or mean to say.  It seems there are those that lean toward seeing it like I do, that there is a specific time when belief is given, what I've always called being born again...that time when "behold I stand at the door..if any man hear...open the door"/"whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved"/"believe and you shall be saved" definitively occurs.  That moment when belief and faith are given, Jesus comes in, and "behold all things are becoming new".  (Yes, I've been in orthodoxy for my whole life until recently, but I don't think they've got it all wrong :thinking:)

On the other hand, it seems there's a group that says all are already saved, they just don't know it yet...that there's no difference between the saved and "unsaved", it's just a matter of semantics and/or knowledge/awareness.  (Carleton Pearson?)

Then there seems to be a thought process that mixes both of these together, i.e., people "get saved" but everybody's already saved...I read that view just today, actually by someone I really respect, but I'll admit, I came away a little confused.

My main concern is that we (I) don't pitch our tent somewhere in which it becomes easy to, (or even perceived so) that we fall into a trap of "1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute."  II Peter 2:1,2.

I hope I never get "so learned" that I forget the precious blood of Jesus that bought and is cleansing me/us.

Seeking truth, all assistance welcome.  God's blessing, James.

[SeekerSA]

Hi James

Like you when I came to Tentmaker, I too believed that Orthodoxy did not have everything wrong, and they do not.

In the traditional sense, Jesus died for the sins of all mankind.  This then is taken that we need to find this initially using our free-will and hence we are left with a free-will choice once we have heard the message of the gospel and thus if refused we had our chance and will stand w/o excuse at the WTJ and hence we shall deserve our damnation to hell.  Sound familiar?

Salvation is a given, a done deal.  What Orthodoxy has done is make God subject to the choices of man whether or not they will be saved.  And saved means saved from hell.

Now why do people not respond even when they paint a doom and gloom hell-fire message?  Surely once we hear this "incredible truth" tha a Loving God will punish us eternally for not making the right choice once or twice when circumstances happened for us to hear the gospel will force all to sprint to the front upon and alter call, pushing and shoving just in case the next breath is the last.

This is a paradox answered by Calvin's predetermination crap and hence we are all by default doomed to hell and we thus have to save ourselves by making the right choice.  Now for someone tossed too and fro by doctrines and emotion, they might respond but a logical thinker like me cannot add a Loving God to one that will toast most of His creation for all eternity.  I begin to wonder, what about the folk that will never hear this "truth" and more specifically what about folk that live 3000 years ago.  By the time I have wrestled with this and realize that there is no answer, the usher comes to me and says the service is over and they want to lock up the church.

Now obviously you do not fall into the category of the too and fro emotional folk but just in case somewhere along the line something happened and you responded to an alter call or something happened in private to you that had a "quickening" electric like something that happened to you?  The questions did not go away did they?

I guess not.

Well what has happened you have decided to search out truth for yourself and UR seems to make sense, at least it is more palatable, yet in the back of your mind you are now questioning UR as truth based upon what I assume from earlier posts is a Baptist indoctrination.  Am I close?

That my friend is where the root of the problem lies (pun intended)

You are from what I see attempting to find a replacement for various doctrinal issues you had or were taught and maybe even experiences.  You logic requires that when one pat answer is dismissed, it must be immediately replace by another pat answer.  This is known as a one-one relationship.  One question and one answer; move onto the next.

Well you have seen that not all here see things the way I do. In logical terms we have a one-many relationship too that means for one questions there are multiple answers.  Let me illustrate:

A question in a database asks one what is your first name.  There are obviously many different first names and thus many different answers.  Each answer is correct as they all relate to first names.  The answers do not contradict the question.  Without going into describe the intricacies of database relationship models let me stop there.

In CU/UR for each question there are multiple layers.  Unlike orthodoxy that have either taken a literal approach subjectively or have adopted another man's subjective view and hence come up with an Article of Faith on a one-one relationship or possibly supported by 2nd witness scrips, CU/UR does not have that.

It is not a replacement theology.

You were taught that to make it to heaven you MUST be born again.  This equates to a sinner's prayer and maybe even standing up and making a confession to that effect.  Some experience something others not.  You are assured because of your choice you are now saved.  Then you are likely told to attend classes where essentially the Articles of Faith are discussed or more likely verbated and you mark-up your Xerox copy and take it home.  Most will take this as truth as they are more experienced Christians hence they must be right.  They have fallen into the trap of indoctrination.

Many issues will be taught like the "principle" of tithing and many other issues (important to the said church.) Ask a question outside of said indoctrination material and usually you will get a vague answer or told not to go there "only believe" or "be thankful you are saved."

They may tell you to seek out answers with God in prayer and may even encourage you to read your bible.  Fervent study is not recommended and enrolment to a formalized bible study is there for these folk at a handsome fee and all you will learn there is a curriculum set by one with a bias.

The problem is we all want to know so much so quickly and hence we look for a method that will bring this to us in the shortest time possible.  That is NOT how the Lord works.

You must remember that the early church, most were illiterate and did not have bibles.

By now you should realize, the system has you hook, line and sinker.  You are trapped and you are in bondage.  YOU HAVE BEEN BRAINWASHED.

Looking elsewhere, seeing so many different approaches and/or interpretations just leads to more confusion.

I am describing symptoms and causes.  So what is the solution?

Just like your relationship with the Father is unique, so too will be the revelations you get.  Fervent study is good but I would suggest you toss everything you thought you knew and start afresh, wipe the slate clean.  Sharing here and reading here, one may be able to glean off truths but the important thing is you should have it quickened in your Spirit by the Holy Spirit.  No one here can claim to have all truth.  We all have pieces of the puzzle and now and then a piece we have will fit your puzzle.

To address your question, here is what I think.

Salvation is a done deal.  Nothing we do makes us saved or unsaved.  Believers (some) have their ears and eyes opened to the fact that they are saved but usually only from a perspective "saved from hell."  Remove hell from the equation, then their salvation is challenged as they perceive it or have been taught.

You mention the "Blood of Jesus" and currently I am challenging that doctrine too.  That makes many uneasy as that is a sacred cow.  I do so not to discount what happened but rather see it from a new perspective.  It is not me and I rely on revelation to post what I post.

Kingdom is taught as something to be aspired to or worked for much like salvation, this is called dead works.  In fact, Jesus brought the Kingdom to us and reestablished it in our midst.  Being "born-again" aka having a spiritual epiphany of sorts, allows you to now SEE and ENTER the kingdom in this age.  The Kingdom is not of this world and will never be, it runs parallel to the kingdom of darkness, the ruler being satan aka our carnality.  I do not see satan as a being BTW.  Many folk still view him as a specific person.

The Kingdom of God is righteousness, peace, joy in the Holy Spirit and all the Love fruits.

By your experience, it appears you have had this epiphany and hence have entered in, in this age.  What remains, you do not fully see it yet.  So your rebirth was an event that happened and not the final result of something you did.  The following process is termed sanctification but this process is usually relegated to dead works.

Jesus says "Seek and Ye shall find, knock and the door shall be opened, Ask and it shall be given unto you"

This is not about salvation as you may have been taught; this is the process post conversion for believers.  Salvation finds us, we cannot find salvation. (John 6:44)

Paul speaks of pressing in and running the race of endurance to achieve the prize.  This was using a parallel of a marathon not a sprint.

Life's a journey, enjoy the ride.

Blessings

[jabcat]

Paul speaks of pressing in and running the race of endurance to achieve the prize.  This was using a parallel of a marathon not a sprint.

Hi SA.  I'll have more to say later, but will absorb things a bit first.  One thing I want to respond to right now is the above quote, with a question...what do you understand to be "the prize"?  P.S. could you elaborate a little more wrt what you see as "my epiphany bringing me into the kingdom now"?  Is that to say a sort of "chosen or manifest son" condition, although all others will confess at the GWTJ?  Thanks SA, God's blessing.  James.

[SeekerSA]

Paul speaks of pressing in and running the race of endurance to achieve the prize.  This was using a parallel of a marathon not a sprint.

Hi SA.  I'll have more to say later, but will absorb things a bit first.  One thing I want to respond to right now is the above quote, with a question...what do you understand to be "the prize"?  P.S. could you elaborate a little more wrt what you see as "my epiphany bringing me into the kingdom now"?  Is that to say a sort of "chosen or manifest son" condition, although all others will confess at the GWTJ?  Thanks SA, God's blessing.  James.

I will not go into the prize as I believe Paul was merely relating to completing the marathon.  If memory serves me correct, they received a laurel aka crown of leaves.

As to the epiphany, I stole that expression from jfrasse (John), essentially a turning point you experienced you believe was real, mine involved a whole lot of emotion and bawling, difficult to describe.  Manifested sons is deeper and right now I do not have an answer for it in any detail.

Blessings

[Kratos]

Jabcat,

I do believe that Jesus paid the price for all to be saved, but I still hold as truth that we must believe to receive what He did for us all. So, I do believe that there is a moment when we all experiencially have our Passover (get born again) by the regeneration of the Holy Spirit. I, also, believe that there was a moment when I experienced my Pentecost and was Baptized in the Spirit and there will be a moment in the twinkling of an eye when this corruption must put on incorruption (Tabernacles) each in their own order.

I will not restart the debate of whether God chooses the moment when He lets us believe or if He constantly knocks and we determine when we open to Him. Fortunately, this is not your question.

All are predestined to be saved and the price has been paid for all. There is no doubt that all will be saved. But, I do not believe that all are saved today.

John

PS I believe that the "prize" that Paul spoke about was attaining to the first resurrection and ruling and reigning with Him as one who Overcame as He Overcame and sits with the Father in His throne. All will at least be raised in the second resurrection, but not all will be a part of the first resurrection. This is reserved for those who Overcome after they believe. IMO

[jabcat]

Jabcat,

I do believe that Jesus paid the price for all to be saved, but I still hold as truth that we must believe to receive what He did for us all. So, I do believe that there is a moment when we all experientially have our Passover (get born again) by the regeneration of the Holy Spirit. I, also, believe that there was a moment when I experienced my Pentecost and was Baptized in the Spirit and there will be a moment in the twinkling of an eye when this corruption must put on incorruption (Tabernacles) each in their own order.

I will not restart the debate of whether God chooses the moment when He lets us believe or if He constantly knocks and we determine when we open to Him. Fortunately, this is not your question.

All are predestined to be saved and the price has been paid for all. There is no doubt that all will be saved. But, I do not believe that all are saved today.

John

PS I believe that the "prize" that Paul spoke about was attaining to the first resurrection and ruling and reigning with Him as one who Overcame as He Overcame and sits with the Father in His throne. All will at least be raised in the second resurrection, but not all will be a part of the first resurrection. This is reserved for those who Overcome after they believe. IMO

Thanks so much John...that's really the way I see it as well.  Being one that's open though to new ideas/including the idea I'm often wrong about things, I've waffled from taking a "hard" stand on this topic, in fact, expressing some confusion in my original post.  Unless I'm missing Father's leading, my spirit within is troubled/grieved when I entertain the thought that there may not be that definitive moment when faith and belief was given/received.  As SA suggested for himself, and as I also experienced, there was a time when I personally felt the Holy Spirit calling me, knocking on my door, not just a realization that "everyone's saved, I guess that includes me".  Addressing the "choice" issue, I sort of think that at that point, which was so much different, stronger, urgent, than other times I'd felt drawn, that I perhaps really didn't have much if any control over a choice at that point...that God's will was going to be done in spite of me...not that He "made" me, but more so that He had brought me to a place where that was the next step, that I yield to Him..again though, Him supplying even that ability to me to do so.  Makes me think that may be how the "every knee will bow..confess (joyfully give thanks)" works, not that God "makes" us, in the sense we think of "being made", but that when He works all the situations, including fully revealing Himself, and creates the circumstances necessary, every heart will make that choice, but still orchestrated and empowered by Father. I appreciate it, God's blessing, James.

[arcticmonster2003]

This is our salvation, and it applies to both believers and unbelievers alike -

2 Peter 3:15  And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

But those whom believed are also saved from darkness even right now, and unbelievers are still in darkness, not knowing their beginning, present, nor end, but just in darkness stumbling from feeling of emptiness and pit of despair to another.

this is why it is said:

1 Timothy 4:10  For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

[Kratos]

There are differences between Universalism and Christian Universalism. Universalism as I understand it believes that all are already saved so it really does not matter if you die a Muslim, Bhuddist, Hindu, Christian, or a pagan. They believe that all are saved by the actions of Christ and it really does not matter what we do as it has all been done for us.

Christian Universalism (again as I understand it) believes that Christ has done God's part for all mankind and all will eventually be saved, but it still maintains that the only way to receive this salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ.

Of course, these are generalities as there is no CU denomination or any articles of faith and for this I am glad.

Here are some interesting verses that show a distinction between God's part and ours:

2Co 5:18  And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Co 5:19  To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20  Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
2Co 5:21  For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

On the one hand, it declares that all have been reconciled to God through Jesus. In other words, there is no breach on God's side as He has declared peace between God and man. However, it also calls us as ambassadors for Christ to encourage others to be reconciled to God. In other words, God's part is done through Christ and the Bible calls this grace. However, grace alone does not save us. It is by grace and through faith that we are saved. Grace is God's part and faith is our part.

Titus 2:11 says that the grace of God that brings salvation has already appeared to all men. But not all have put faith in God's grace so they remain in need of reconciling themselves to God.

We must never stop compelling others to come in as His ambassadors. The narrow gate is still the best way and this comes by faith in Christ while still in this life. Fortunately, the wide gate still leads to the same place, but it does so through many destructions. Unlike what our critics say that we preach, it does make a difference what we do with the gift of Christ.

John

[hopeful]

2Co 5:18  And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

Ministry of reconciliation...

I like that.
The sound it makes, is beautiful.

Ministry of reconciliation...

:HeartThrob:

[SeekerSA]

We must never stop compelling others to come in as His ambassadors. The narrow gate is still the best way and this comes by faith in Christ while still in this life. Fortunately, the wide gate still leads to the same place, but it does so through many destructions. Unlike what our critics say that we preach, it does make a difference what we do with the gift of Christ.

A hearty Amen to that.

They ask if no hell why preach.  Well that is the 1st tenant of false faith that must come down.  We are not saved from hell but saved from our sin.

Blessings

[AJ]

Hi jabcat,
A couple days ago you asked:  "what do you understand to be 'the prize'"?

-------------------------------------
The 'Gift' and the 'Prize'.

For the believer in the Lord Jesus Christ:
There is a "prize" to be won (Phil 3:14), as well as a "gift" to be received (Rom 6:23).

When a persons obtains their initial salvation status, it can not be said to be a "prize"........but
rather it is an unmeritious "gift" from God.

A "prize" can be won or obtained after a certain amount of struggle and apprehension,...... but a "gift" is merely just received and accepted, without there being any merit of works.

The "gift" is to bring life (through no works) where there was death.......while the "prize"
is given as a reward (through good works) for service and deligence.

The "prize" will involve - being a "joint heirs" with Christ in His own (heavenly) realm, to rule and reign with Him over the earth. (Rom. 8:17, Rev. 5:10, 20:6).

The "prize" may also involve, eventually receiving certain Crowns, Positions, Honor and (Assorted Items
such as a White Stone and etc.)

So instead of making God's written Word contradict itself, we are fitting each portion of truth into its proper place in the Divine scheme of things, thereby producing one harmonious whole.

Paul spoke of a prize, won in the games or athletic contests of time.
"Know ye not that they which run a race run all,(many are called) but one (certain ones) receiveth
the prize"?
(but few are chosen - (Matt 22:14) "So run, that ye may obtain."  (1 Cor. 9:24)

"Brethren, I count not myself yet to have laid hold: but one thing I do, forgetting the things which are behind,
and stretching forward to the things which are before, I press on toward the goal unto the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus." (Phil.3:14).

The PRIZE is a high calling, a holy calling, and a heavenly calling. (Phil 3:11-14, 1 Pet 1:15, Heb 3:1)
Though this prize is something to be attained to, we must not think, that it is something
achieved through our own effort or merit alone.

It is "Christ in you, the hope of glory." (Col, 1:27).

If we are to ''rightly divide" the Word of Truth, we must distinguish between salvations, as such, which
is (a.) the gift of God which is to be received, and (b.) the "high calling" which is something to be attained to.

Thus the "high calling" is a summons or invitation to come up higher.
This is in harmony with the statement in (Hebrews 3:1) "Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling".

It is a call or summons to attain to the glories of heaven itself. All of us who have been saved are partakers of
(associates in) this heavenly calling. But . . . we must "give diligence to make our calling and election sure". (2 Peter 1:10).

Certainly this is not the same as the GIFT of eternal life which is now the present possession of every born again Christian.

Paul makes this distinction.
The distinction is made clear in (2 Tim. 1:9) where Paul speaks of God who "saved us, and called us
with a holy calling "

The two ideas are separated by the conjunction "and", ...and also in (Romans 11:29) speaks of this distinction
- the gifts and the callings of God, which  indicates (at least to me) that they are not the same thing.

Another EXAMPLE: --- In one instance - we have apprehension from Paul and then in the other certitude.

So again Paul indicates a distinction.
The first:
is his own apprehension of failure to obtain this prize,

"I therefore , not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one beating the air but I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection, that by any means when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." (1 Cor. 9:26)


And secondly:
we now see how different are these words of certitude, from the apostle which we read in (2 Tim.1: 12)

"For I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day."

(2 Timothy 2:15), we are admonished to "study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman
that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."


This salvation(the soul) definitely involves WORKS... therefore, it cannot be the initial salvation of
the spirit, in-which there are NO works.
Let us not make the mistake of confusing the free gift, the gift of salvation for all mankind, with
the mark for the prize of the high calling. (Phil. 3:14).

Initial salvation is an inevitable free gift for everyone,.... secured for all - through the finished work
of Christ.
There is also a prize, however, that is only for those who "run that they may obtain."

Of course, it is all in the sovereign work of God but it is that very sovereign God who encourages us to ...press toward
the mark for the prize of the high calling (not the free gift) of God in Christ Jesus (Phil. 3:14).

This prize is only for those who realize that Christ died to the flesh, so that he(Christ) could live
his life in us (Gal. 2:20) it is not the believer trying to live his own life of good works in the flesh.


Peace, AJ

[jabcat]

Hi jabcat,
A couple days ago you asked:  "what do you understand to be 'the prize'"?

-------------------------------------
The 'Gift' and the 'Prize'.

For the believer in the Lord Jesus Christ:
There is a "prize" to be won (Phil 3:14), as well as a "gift" to be received (Rom 6:23).

When a persons obtains their initial salvation status, it can not be said to be a "prize"........but
rather it is an unmeritious "gift" from God.

A "prize" can be won or obtained after a certain amount of struggle and apprehension,...... but a "gift" is merely just received and accepted, without there being any merit of works.

The "gift" is to bring life (through no works) where there was death.......while the "prize"
is given as a reward (through good works) for service and deligence.

The "prize" will involve - being a "joint heirs" with Christ in His own (heavenly) realm, to rule and reign with Him over the earth. (Rom. 8:17, Rev. 5:10, 20:6).

The "prize" may also involve, eventually receiving certain Crowns, Positions, Honor and (Assorted Items
such as a White Stone and etc.)


Though this prize is something to be attained to, we must not think, that it is something
achieved through our own effort or merit alone.

It is "Christ in you, the hope of glory." (Col, 1:27).

It is a call or summons to attain to the glories of heaven itself. All of us who have been saved are partakers of
(associates in) this heavenly calling. But . . . we must "give diligence to make our calling and election sure". (2 Peter 1:10).

Certainly this is not the same as the GIFT of eternal life which is now the present possession of every born again Christian.

The two ideas are separated by the conjunction "and", ...and also in (Romans 11:29) speaks of this distinction
- the gifts and the callings of God, which  indicates (at least to me) that they are not the same thing.

Another EXAMPLE: --- In one instance - we have apprehension from Paul and then in the other certitude.

So again Paul indicates a distinction.
The first:
is his own apprehension of failure to obtain this prize,

Makes a lot sense, AJ.  A couple of things:  I agree with what I think I see you saying, even though Jesus will restore and save all, there are specific times when that faith is given, to each individually...some now, all later.  Also, I think your view wrt to the "prize factor" is at least somewhere in the ballpark with the manifest sons idea I had mentioned earlier, i.e., those who are to reign.  Thanks for the reply.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I had a dramatic initial salvation experience, as different as night and day, literally. No one could deny it, not even me. So imagine my shock and confusion, when one day years later, the Lord told me He was the light of ALL MEN that come into the world, that He was there all along in me as well, I just didn't know it.

How is this possible, I asked? What then, happened to me, at my initial conversion? He likened it to a woman who is pregnant, but doesn't know it yet. How is that possible? Easy. I was 4 months pregnant with my first child before I realized I was pregnant. I wouldn't have known then, if not for the fact, I went to the doctor thinking I had the flu, LOL.....

So was I any less pregnant at 2 weeks of term? No. I just didn't have a conscious awareness of it yet. The Lord honors our faith where we are at. He honors the fact we turn to Him, in whatever form that takes, and He appears (allows us to perceive Him) to us, in whatever form (as in doctrine) is necessary, for us to recognize what happened to us. We are as one who is "asleep", but then arises and awakens to Christ in us, the hope of glory. Notice that the churches who believed in salvation at all, had us praying to invite Him in, when He was there all along. If anyone, teaches you another gospel.........Blessings to all....

[jabcat]

:cloud9: I had a dramatic initial salvation experience, as different as night and day, literally. No one could deny it, not even me. So imagine my shock and confusion, when one day years later, the Lord told me He was the light of ALL MEN that come into the world, that He was there all along in me as well, I just didn't know it.

How is this possible, I asked? What then, happened to me, at my initial conversion? He likened it to a woman who is pregnant, but doesn't know it yet. How is that possible? Easy. I was 4 months pregnant with my first child before I realized I was pregnant. I wouldn't have known then, if not for the fact, I went to the doctor thinking I had the flu, LOL.....

So was I any less pregnant at 2 weeks of term? No. I just didn't have a conscious awareness of it yet. The Lord honors our faith where we are at. He honors the fact we turn to Him, in whatever form that takes, and He appears (allows us to perceive Him) to us, in whatever form (as in doctrine) is necessary, for us to recognize what happened to us. We are as one who is "asleep", but then arises and awakens to Christ in us, the hope of glory. Notice that the churches who believed in salvation at all, had us praying to invite Him in, when He was there all along. If anyone, teaches you another gospel.........Blessings to all....

You've given me something to think about there, Cardinal (we're St. Louis Cardinal fans, so sometimes I might slip and call you Redbird).  In fact, I believe I woke up this morning wondering about your post.  Don't quite have my mind completely around it yet, but it's one of those things that fits right into what I'm pondering.  Thanks, God's blessing.

[jabcat]

I'll just add, Cardinal, as a child I was exposed to what I would term as waaaaay conservative, fundamentalist, hell-fire, you've got to do certain things to be saved and even more to stay saved, or you'll split hell wide open teachings.  Within that environment was a mentality of "the world is lost, evil, of the devil and only those who wear their hair and clothes a certain way, say and do all the right things, etc., etc. will make it in, IF you don't slip at the last moment and do some sin, right before that car crash, then you'll still go to hell...everyone else is wrong, sinful, horrible, whatever."  So, as Father's been showing me UR the past year (even though I've spent a lot of my life moving away from those "early years") you might imagine it's still a bit of a challenge for me to fully accept what you're saying...I am listening...thanks again for the input

[firstborn888]

:cloud9: I had a dramatic initial salvation experience, as different as night and day, literally. No one could deny it, not even me. So imagine my shock and confusion, when one day years later, the Lord told me He was the light of ALL MEN that come into the world, that He was there all along in me as well, I just didn't know it.

How is this possible, I asked? What then, happened to me, at my initial conversion? He likened it to a woman who is pregnant, but doesn't know it yet. How is that possible? Easy. I was 4 months pregnant with my first child before I realized I was pregnant. I wouldn't have known then, if not for the fact, I went to the doctor thinking I had the flu, LOL.....

So was I any less pregnant at 2 weeks of term? No. I just didn't have a conscious awareness of it yet. The Lord honors our faith where we are at. He honors the fact we turn to Him, in whatever form that takes, and He appears (allows us to perceive Him) to us, in whatever form (as in doctrine) is necessary, for us to recognize what happened to us. We are as one who is "asleep", but then arises and awakens to Christ in us, the hope of glory. Notice that the churches who believed in salvation at all, had us praying to invite Him in, when He was there all along. If anyone, teaches you another gospel.........Blessings to all....

Excellent analogy Card.

And don't forget our own salvation process jab - I'm getting more 'saved' everyday.  :thumbsup:

Remember that the the root of the word 'save' in the Hebrew means 'free' and is also the root of the word Joshua (Jesus) as well. ie: "THE ETERNAL ONE HAS MADE FREE"

Nothing we do can improve or jepordize our standing with God - that's all been dealt with in Christ. But our character and decisions DO affect our current state of 'freedom' hence does affect our 'salvation' (if you understand the term in a non-eligious sense).
- byron

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Let me just say Jabcat, I understand totally, even though I was just the opposite and had no religious upbringing, by the time I received this revelation I had been walking with the Lord long enough for that prior understanding to be set in cement, LOL.

I don't know if you have studied the tabernacle much, but He always gives me things or reinforces what He gives me, by showing me "where" the revelation fits that pattern of the things in the heavenlies (Heb. 10).

For this particular revelation, He gave me that the candlestick is as the tree of life, and the table of shewbread is as the tree of knowledge of G & E. So because these trees were in the MIDST of the garden, then the WHOLE thing is the garden of the Lord, and that means all those in the outer court (which is ALL those not in the spiritual priesthood of the inner court pattern by virtue of spiritual baptism) are His as well.

As I said in an earlier post on this, I have been unable to share the Lord with any by demanding they "ask Jesus in", for some time. Instead, He has me tell them He is in them, waiting on their heart to turn towards Him and acknowledge Him as Lord of all. The anointing that is on this message, and the fruit it brings when it's the Spirit bringing it out of you, is truly astounding. With each revelation He gives, we are IMO getting closer to having the pure BREATH within us to breath life into a dying creation, as every time we receive a revelation it's Him giving us HIS BREATH. Ahhhhhh......breathe in, breathe out........Blessings to you....

PS. Amen, Brian....... :thumbsup:

[Dreamer]

As I said in an earlier post on this, I have been unable to share the Lord with any by demanding they "ask Jesus in", for some time. Instead, He has me tell them He is in them, waiting on their heart to turn towards Him and acknowledge Him as Lord of all.

Amen, Cardinal.  We can now provide an answer (Jesus is already there) as opposed to asking for one (Will you accept Jesus into your heart?  Willya, huh, huh?  You wanna' go to heaven dontcha'?  A bus could come any second and run you over and by that time it's too late...) 

It really is more blessed to give (answers) than it is to receive (answers).

[Cardinal]

Amen, Cardinal.  We can now provide an answer (Jesus is already there) as opposed to asking for one (Will you accept Jesus into your heart?  Willya, huh, huh?  You wanna' go to heaven dontcha'?  A bus could come any second and run you over and by that time it's too late...) 

It really is more blessed to give (answers) than it is to receive (answers).

:cloud9: Oooh, that was GOOD! HEARING and being converted here....... :winkgrin:

[jabcat]

There are differences between Universalism and Christian Universalism. Universalism as I understand it believes that all are already saved so it really does not matter if you die a Muslim, Bhuddist, Hindu, Christian, or a pagan. They believe that all are saved by the actions of Christ and it really does not matter what we do as it has all been done for us.

Christian Universalism (again as I understand it) believes that Christ has done God's part for all mankind and all will eventually be saved, but it still maintains that the only way to receive this salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ.

I've been thinking about these issues lately, and there have been some recent posts that have brought this back to the forefront for me.  I believe everyone that has posted in this particular thread has said similar things, although perhaps using different terms, i.e., some call it "being born again", Bernie calls it an "epiphany", some more "a realization".  I guess my summary thoughts of this are that it seems to me there is a time when God gives us the faith to believe, not that we all just sort of "drift into the promise, whatever we're doing, and whatever/whoever we believe in".  Every knee will/[must] bow. 

Which also addresses the issue of, bluntly, that some are believers now, some are unbelievers now, some atheists, some agnostics...not all have "come to the knowledge of the truth" 2 Tim. 3:8.  IMHO, though we are to love everyone, judge no one's salvation, etc., we are still to "discern the spirits to see if they are from God";  treating all with respect and kindness, but not automatically lumping all as being "of the household of the faith".  There are too many scriptures that indicate there is a division of darkness and light...(yes, Jesus spent time with "darkness", but He did so to share His Light).  Not all are yet in the camp of being a believer, as all are not yet in the [active] process of being converted [the "behold, all things becoming new"];  even if it's present, not as yet recognized and activated, per Cardinal's post.  None of this gives the believer any opportunity for personal pride, because none of it is of us...God works all after the counsel of His own will. However, we are told to discern...that's one way we're prevented from being "tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine".  I believe there are too many admonishions to deny this precept.  God will do the judging and threshing, not us...our instructions are to love and proclaim...but He did tell us to be aware of "wolves in sheep's clothing"...and even gave us the definition of the "fruit" we are to "know them by". 

It appears to me that many will only receive the faith to believe, following, as John intimated, their experience through divine destruction so they may then be rebuilt to Father's glory...as must we all.  Perhaps this follows the cleansing LoF, which I believe is God's fiery, irresistable, cleansing presence.  I believe some go through it now, the rest later.  Observing some things, coming to some tentative conclusions as I understand it right now.  God's blessing, James.

[Molly]

I've been thinking about these issues lately, and there have been some recent posts that have brought this back to the forefront for me.  I believe everyone that has posted in this particular thread has said similar things, although perhaps using different terms, i.e., some call it "being born again", Bernie calls it an "epiphany", some more "a realization".  I guess my summary thoughts of this are that it seems to me there is a time when God gives us the faith to believe, not that we all just sort of "drift into the promise, whatever we're doing, and whatever/whoever we believe in".  Every knee will/[must] bow. 

I was thinking about this same thing recently, Jab.  On the subject of when Jesus will return---

Matthew 24:36
[ No One Knows the Day or Hour ] "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.

The question has always been, why would Jesus not know the hour of his return?  Yet, he says the Father knows.

Could it be because the time is different for everyone?  Each in his own time?


23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;
24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power.
25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy is being abolished: death.

--1 Cor 15


Each in his own class, the timing is different for everyone?  Thus we are drawn to him by the Father, in the manner of the Jewish marriage, where the bride is picked by the father.  But once the betrothal is made with the ceremony of breaking bread and drinking wine between the bride to be and the groom, the groom returns to his father's house to prepare a place for her.   She waits for his return to take her to the home he has prepared where the marriage will be consummated.   But she does not know the exact hour he will return, so she must always be ready for the wedding party to arrive at her home, singing and shouting,  with her groom, at any hour of the day or night, to take her to her new home and marriage.






42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.--Matt 24

[jabcat]

I was thinking about this same thing recently, Jab.  When Jesus is asked when he returns, he replies

Matthew 24:36
[ No One Knows the Day or Hour ] "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.

Each in his own class, the timing is different for everyone?  Thus we are drawn to him by the Father, in the manner of the Jewish marriage, where the bride is picked by the father. 

It blesses me to hear God has been laying the same things on your heart, Molly.  Amen to what you've shared here.

All will become believers, but as you say, only as Father draws (drags) and chooses, and each in his/her order.  God's blessing, James.

[Molly]

wow look at this:

001:001  Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: 
001:002 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, 
001:003 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 
001:004 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 
001:005 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 
001:006 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 
001:007 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 
001:008 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 
001:009 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 
001:010 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 
001:011 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. 

[jabcat]

 :gimmefive:    :happyclap:.  Just discussing yesterday with someone how God has a Big Plan...He created, He has a purpose, and He will fix it/us...and it'll all be good!  God's blessing.

[fullarmor2]

It makes much more sense that all are already saved. Its just that all don't know it yet. I mean if a decent person sees somebody in trouble. They don't ask the person anything,  they do something.  And thats whet God did. He saved us all. And some are aware of what God did. And many lack knowledge and understanding regarding God's plan and love. And we are suppose to tell others who do not know yet.  Thats what Paul preached. The ministry of reconciliation. God has already done it all. People simply need to come to  a knowledge of what God  has done and respond appropriately by entering into relationship with God. And its what God has done for us, his love, which is to be the motivation for people to respond and nothing else. Especially some stupid ET doctrine.  I remember in Acts,  Paul was preaching and the Spirit fell on the hearers as they listened to the Gospel. There were no religious formulas! No alter calls.  No sinners prayers. No nothing except a faith response in people as the Gospel was preached, to God's grace and Spirit. People responding in love to God's love.