"If we are all going to be saved anyway then..."

[DanielB]

"If we are all going to be saved anyway then why shouldn't we hit our fingers with hammers, pull out our hair, and or jab ourselves with all the needles we want to jab ourselves with?"- What I want to say the next time I hear that "If we are all going to be saved anyway then why shouldn't we sin?" logic!  :icon_jokercolor:

[eaglesway]

I would say, "Mostly because sin destroys your life and your relationships with the people you love and entitles you to experience something on the other side of this life that is significantly more difficult than surrendering to Jesus in this life. If that doesn't bother you, and the only thing that keeps you from sin is fear- by all means go ahead and sin, so you can get forgiven and maybe come to know God a little bit".

[WhiteWings]

"If we are all going to be saved anyway then why shouldn't we hit our fingers with hammers, pull out our hair, and or jab ourselves with all the needles we want to jab ourselves with?"- What I want to say the next time I hear that "If we are all going to be saved anyway then why shouldn't we sin?" logic!  :icon_jokercolor:

You are saved from eternal death. Not from stupidity.
Satan said to Jesus jump; Father will send angels to catch you. Jesus responded that we should not test God.
In NT a similar question to yours is ask. If we are under all covering grace why not just sin as we see fit. Obviously the answer to that question was a big no. In a way that would be testing God's grace.

:2c:

[rosered]

  Great answers  EW  and WW   and good question Daniel B

  I could only say this much ,  to Know God  the Father  is to Love Him  and desire to please  Him   , that relationship  is the very thing Jesus  come to show us    The Way , truth and Life , that   single and narrow path to  take  , making it personal  and  precious , Following Jesus   whom will   Stay   within   you   and  as near  as your hearts door

To sin or stay in sin is to error , who wants to   error when   they KNOW the difference between    sin/error  = death  and Truth    is righteousness in Christ =  Life

  that   being a no brainer      right ?   willfully sinning there is no more   grace  as WW   brought out  ,   do not tempt the Lord     or as John says  that destructive path of reaping/sowing  to the flesh   we are to leave behind   to grow in truth and grace  , being a new and spiritual creature   born of God and above .
when you love your  neighbor  as yourself  or love your brother as Christ does  , you begin to consider the  the spiritual babe  growing within you   and the carnal   man , nature  becomes last   from being first   and dies   from sin /error   and the new man  becomes  becomes strong in the truth and the truth sets them free  , no longer a slave to sin /error
now we also must love everyone  as ourselves also  struggling to get in   as well , consider the costs   as Judgment begins in the house of God  ,    you and your house shall serve the LORD of hosts /saints /holy ones  joined with Him  as ONE SPIRIT  .


   Matt 7 The Narrow Gate
13"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction

and there are many who enter through it.


14"For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

 

[Seth]

"If we are all going to be saved anyway then why shouldn't we hit our fingers with hammers, pull out our hair, and or jab ourselves with all the needles we want to jab ourselves with?"- What I want to say the next time I hear that "If we are all going to be saved anyway then why shouldn't we sin?" logic!  :icon_jokercolor:

That is awesome  :laughing7:  :banana:

[Seth]

I think the day is coming that man will have the scales fall from his eyes and see that sin was always his closest friend and his biggest betrayer.

"Though I do hate him as I do hell-pains.
Yet, for necessity of present life,
I must show out a flag and sign of love,
Which is indeed but sign. "

-Iago, from Othello

[Seth]

that   being a no brainer      right ?   willfully sinning there is no more   grace  as WW   brought out  ,   do not tempt the Lord     or as John says  that destructive path of reaping/sowing  to the flesh   we are to leave behind   to grow in truth and grace  , being a new and spiritual creature   born of God and above .

:iagree:

Hebrews 6
6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3 And this will we do, if God permit.

[Searching_For_The_Truth]

that   being a no brainer      right ?   willfully sinning there is no more   grace  as WW   brought out  ,   do not tempt the Lord     or as John says  that destructive path of reaping/sowing  to the flesh   we are to leave behind   to grow in truth and grace  , being a new and spiritual creature   born of God and above .

:iagree:

Hebrews 6
6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3 And this will we do, if God permit.

Doesn't the "eternal judgement" part of Hebrews 6 contradict the notion that people can be refined/purified after death if they don't follow Lord Jesus while they were alive?

[Seth]

No, it just says that there is a "fire" reserved to consume the chaff. It doesn't proclaim a limitation on repentance after that judgment. It's impossible to repent, leading up to that judgment, and only as long as "God does not permit" repentance.

[gregoryfl]

I think the day is coming that man will have the scales fall from his eyes and see that sin was always his closest friend and his biggest betrayer.

"Though I do hate him as I do hell-pains.
Yet, for necessity of present life,
I must show out a flag and sign of love,
Which is indeed but sign. "

-Iago, from Othello

:thumbsup: Love it Seth!

[dajomaco]

What if you lived your life by this premise, there is no such thing as sin.
What if you lived your life by this premise, there is such a thing as sin, and it must be avoided.

If at the end of each life the only consideration  in judgement was the amount they Loved.

Which life would be the most fertile to grow Love.

[dajomaco]

The tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil .
The fruit of that tree is unable to produce LOVE

[eaglesway]

What if you lived your life by this premise, there is no such thing as sin.
What if you lived your life by this premise, there is such a thing as sin, and it must be avoided.

If at the end of each life the only consideration  in judgement was the amount they Loved.

Which life would be the most fertile to grow Love.

The life that was lived in the heart and mind of Christ :o)

[SteveW]

I like this post because that has been the most common response I receive from ET Christians when talking about UR.  It kind of baffles me how they don't see it and I want to develop a concise answer that gets to the point.  Something like:  "So you are saying that the only reason you don't sin is because you are still afraid of burning in hell forever as a consequence?  IE you don't really believe you are saved?"

[WhiteWings]

Something like:  "So you are saying that the only reason you don't sin is because you are still afraid of burning in hell forever as a consequence?  IE you don't really believe you are saved?"

They believe as a fire insurance.
They don't really believe because believing means peace. Peace means love. Love casts out all fear. They have great fear.

[rosered]

The tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil .
The fruit of that tree is unable to produce LOVE

  You are so right D!
  Jesus says make the tree good / producing fruits   of the Holy Spirit  Not  the flesh

33"Either make the tree good and its fruit good,

or make the tree bad and its fruit bad;

for the tree is known by its fruit.

34"You brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak what is good?

For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart.

  Who is filling our hearts ?   
  two examples

If therefore you who are evil know to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in Heaven give good things to those who ask him?

  "And if you, who are evil, know to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in Heaven give The Spirit of Holiness to those who ask him?"

  satan filled heart  Acts  5     evil agaist the Spirit of holiness

And Shimeon said to Khanan-Yah, "Why has Satan filled your heart to cheat The Spirit of Holiness and to hide some money of the proceeds of the field?"


  The Word of God  has answers  and is Sharp   cutting  between the two     a soul/life and  a Spirit

[rosered]

No, it just says that there is a "fire" reserved to consume the chaff. It doesn't proclaim a limitation on repentance after that judgment. It's impossible to repent, leading up to that judgment, and only as long as "God does not permit" repentance.

   :2thumbs:

[DanielB]

To be clear I was not asking why we should not sin(I know from experience that sin does not lead to a better life). I was showing what I want to say to those who use that logic. People say "Don't answer a question with a question." but I like to sometimes. 

[rosered]

Something like:  "So you are saying that the only reason you don't sin is because you are still afraid of burning in hell forever as a consequence?  IE you don't really believe you are saved?"

They believe as a fire insurance.
They don't really believe because believing means peace. Peace means love. Love casts out all fear. They have great fear.

  Yes they do  not LOVE GOD   nor their brothers and sisters as themselves
  and are they  are trying   to preserve  their OWN lives    and condemn and  judge    everyone else to   hell and fire
  saying  ,  you are not saved and''  I am.'' not knowing  ,   dead know nothing / they are in the fires of judgment    now !!
  Those whom  are suffering in ways they DO NOT understand , I know some

  and if they do not believe  Moses  and the Law   nor Jesus Word , how can they believe you !!!

[gregoryfl]

that   being a no brainer      right ?   willfully sinning there is no more   grace  as WW   brought out  ,   do not tempt the Lord     or as John says  that destructive path of reaping/sowing  to the flesh   we are to leave behind   to grow in truth and grace  , being a new and spiritual creature   born of God and above .

:iagree:

Hebrews 6
6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3 And this will we do, if God permit.

Doesn't the "eternal judgement" part of Hebrews 6 contradict the notion that people can be refined/purified after death if they don't follow Lord Jesus while they were alive?

Not at all. Whenever you see the word eternal as part of a construct (next to a noun) it is never speaking about time or timelessness. It is always speaking about the source as being on the horizon, obscured, hazy, hidden. This source is referring to God. Eternal judgment is nothing other than another way of idiomatically saying 'judgment of God'. Same with eternal life, which is to say, Life of God (in Messiah). To have eternal life is to have God, to have the Son. To have eternal judgment is to have his judgment, however long it lasts is not stated, other than the implied "as long as is necessary".

[rosered]

that   being a no brainer      right ?   willfully sinning there is no more   grace  as WW   brought out  ,   do not tempt the Lord     or as John says  that destructive path of reaping/sowing  to the flesh   we are to leave behind   to grow in truth and grace  , being a new and spiritual creature   born of God and above .

:iagree:

Hebrews 6
6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3 And this will we do, if God permit.

Doesn't the "eternal judgement" part of Hebrews 6 contradict the notion that people can be refined/purified after death if they don't follow Lord Jesus while they were alive?

Not at all. Whenever you see the word eternal as part of a construct (next to a noun) it is never speaking about time or timelessness. It is always speaking about the source as being on the horizon, obscured, hazy, hidden. This source is referring to God. Eternal judgment is nothing other than another way of idiomatically saying 'judgment of God'. Same with eternal life, which is to say, Life of God (in Messiah). To have eternal life is to have God, to have the Son. To have eternal judgment is to have his judgment, however long it lasts is not stated, other than the implied "as long as is necessary".

:thanks:   

[eaglesway]

When we see the words eternal judgment, we are conditioned to think "forever condemnation".

In laying out the foundation doctrines in Hebrews 6 I see a lampstand/minora.

The central stem of the 7 stems and florets runs to the base and is the central foundation, the doctrine of Christ(who He is, dependence on Him)

the other six are
1:)repentence from dead works
2)faith towards God
3)doctrine of baptisms
4)doctine of the laying on of hands
5)resurrection of the dead
6)eternal(olam/aionios) judgment

The doctrine of eternal judgment is God's plan for the ages(olam/aionios). His judgments in the earth do not refer only to punishments or correction. Punishment or correction is only the consequence of resisting His purposes, and His eternal(olam/aionios) purpose is clearly stated in Ephesians 1:9-11

In all wisdom and insight  He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up(anakepholaomai-gathering together into one) of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.

Also in Romans 11:32-36

For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments(krimata) and unfathomable His ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever(eis tous aionas-throughout the ages). Amen.

The word for judgment in Romans 11 is the same(krimata-plural form) as the word for judgment in Hebrews 6(krimatos-singular form)

I look at the doctrine of "aioniou krimatos"( as the "whys" of God. Why He has set up the ages, His "Kind intention" "who makes all things work according to the counsel of His will" and "who will have all men to be saved" through "an administration suitable to the fulness of times(completion of the ages)- the gathering together of all things into one in Christ."

Col 1:19 For it was the Father's good pleasure(eudokia) for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

Eph 1:9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention(eudokia) which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.

Luke2:14 `Glory in the highest to God, and upon earth peace, among men -- good will(eudokia).'

This word eudokia is an important word in that it reveals God's intentions towards men is good and kind. eudokia is universaly translated this way by all versions. Therefore when you see the word "gospel" meaning "good news" or "kind news", you see the Greek word "euaggelios" eu-good/kind aggelios- message, proclamation"

Phil 2:13 for God it is who is working in you both to will and to work for His good pleasure(eudokia).

The doctrine of eternal judgment explains the purposes of God from the creation through to the end, when God becomes all in all.


Alpha

Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Omega

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For "He has put all things under His feet."But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

Romans 11:32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

"For who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has become His counselor?"
35 "Or who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?"
36 For of Him(Alpha) and through Him and to Him(Omega) are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.


To a blindman in a box I suppose this is all gobbledygook :o)

2 Cor 4:3 But even if our gospel(euaggelion) is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

[Graph1159]

I've thought about Romans 5:21 a lot here lately:

"Just as sin exercised dominion in death, so grace might also exercise dominion through justification leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (NRSV).

Sin's dominion is in death, but through Christ all will be made alive and God will be all in all (1 Cor. 15:22-28). If death is abolished, sin is also abolished, because it is through death that sin operates.

So, if people ask, "If everybody's going to be saved we may as well just . . . ," I would ask which team they would rather be on: The one that wins (Christ, Life) or the one that loses (sin, death).

[marie glen]

"If we are all going to be saved anyway then why shouldn't we hit our fingers with hammers, pull out our hair, and or jab ourselves with all the needles we want to jab ourselves with?"- What I want to say the next time I hear that "If we are all going to be saved anyway then why shouldn't we sin?" logic!  :icon_jokercolor:

:rolllol: :LH: ha! you said it!! :smile: