Christian Univesalism - Real Atonement

[Charlie Brown II]

Hi Everyone!

Just wanted to link in with you all. Being a Christian Universalist is not comfortable in my church climate so I value your fellowship and a chance to encourage and be encouraged!

I would like to post on all kinds of things but didn't want to start by being too heavy. Once I've said 'hello' maybe we can start chatting.

I am in the UK working as a Hospice Chaplain and helping to lead a small church.

I have a special interest in 'Real Atonement'. By this I basically mean the belief that Christ's death achieved salvation for all, with immediate effect for all people, past present and future. This is achieved by God alone and does not depend on faith to complete it. Faith is only our realisation of the fact of atonement, an opening of the heart by God's Spirit to the wonderful salvation Jesus has already achieved for us.

Christians are the ones that have believed and realised this fact and enjoy the benefits. Non Christians are also saved; they just haven't believed or realised it yet. But not believing does not change the efficacy of Christ's atonement for their sin. For example, if a court lets someone off a fine but the offender does not know it, this does not mean he is not let off!

This radically changes how I see non-Christians. They are 'right with God' already, through the work Christ has done, and are able to experience God on occasions, no matter what belief is held by them. But they haven't realised the enormity of their privileges in Christ.

So 'I no longer see anyone from a human point of view' 2 Cor. 5.16

It would be great to hear from you

Shalom

Charlie Brown II     

[Lazarus Short]

Welcome, CB II!  I like your inclusionistic attitude toward the "unsaved."  :friendstu: :gimmefive: :friendstu:

[rosered]

Welcome Charlie Brown II      :welcome:

  I love your post !  Feeling exactly the same,

  and learning daily !!! :icon_flower:

   

[ed]

Hi Charlie Brown,

Great first post.  I agree that UR changes the way that we look at those who are unrealized.

Actually the change an the way that the world is viewed is one of the strongest reasons to believe in UR.

We are able to love world just as God loves the world.  Before UR it was not that easy. 

Great post.  How and when did you first start to realize UR?

[eaglesway]

Welcome to tentmaker :o)

While I believe that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ has secured salvation for all men, I would disagree with the statement all men are saved they just dont realize it yet- because the scriptures say otherwise.

Saved means "healed, delivered, made whole"(sozo-grk).

If faith is realization, then one must realize in order to receive- by grace are you saved through faith.

That healing is not accessible to those who have not believed, or realized, or been "gathered into one in Christ".

As in Adam all died so also in Christ shall all be made alive-but each in his own order(1 cor 15)

As yet those who are in Adam have not been made alive- but they shall be.

Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess- but they have not all done so yet.

I actually dislike the word saved because it has been so tied to ET doctrine that I think it has lost its original meaning and always has "from hell" attached to it in the mind. "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you shall be healed works better for me".

Christ has died for all, but until they realize it, they cannot receive the benefits of it, which is being saved/healed/restored- incorporated in Christ. The benefit is deliverance, healing, wholeness, restoration--- salvation is union with God through Jesus Christ. Becoming partakers of the divine nature, grafted into and abiding in the vine.

To me, salvation is experiential, not theoretical. It may be in the bank for you, but you cant have it till you get your name on the account.

Also, when explaining the salvation of all to other Christians, I think it is important to stay consistently in tune with the language of the scriptures.

[jabcat]

Hi Charlie.  You may find this useful;

excerpt - "While we, at Tentmaker Ministries are glad Carlton Pearson has abandoned the traditional belief that most people are going to endlessly burn in Hell, we do not hold to some key positions which seem to come from Carlton Pearson's teachings. We do NOT believe all mankind is presently saved.  To enter Christ's Body, one must be born from above. Most people will NOT be born from above in this lifetime.      We, who have been given salvation should be sharing that salvation through the fruit in our lives by being joined to Christ.   If God wanted to save the entire planet today, He easily could. But He has a plan. In that plan, salvation is extended to people in an order, that order extends beyond our present age.   There is a liberality among those who teach the Doctrine of Inclusion which violates a whole host of Scriptures dealing with restraining the body with its lusts. Some teach there is no more such thing as sin. We believe in Holiness, not necessarily the Holiness Pentecostal form of heavy legalism, but we believe God holds us accountable to living a moral and orderly life." - Gary Amirault, Tentmaker Ministries"

http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/tm's-beliefs-regarding-universal-reconciliation/

[bushy]

Hi Charley, glad you stopped by and it looks like you have some interesting things to discuss. I also believe but don't understand all that happened when Jesus gave His life for us but historically what He did is history.

Galatians 1:4 "who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father",

So from God's point of view we were rescued 2000 years ago. I'm not sure how much we benefit from it until we hear the good news and believe it so the healing process can be started(salvation). I see us all as part of God's big family with lots of bad kids but He is the perfect Father and knows how to make us all behave ourselves.  :smile:

[gregoryfl]

Hi Charlie.  You may find this useful;

excerpt - "While we, at Tentmaker Ministries are glad Carlton Pearson has abandoned the traditional belief that most people are going to endlessly burn in Hell, we do not hold to some key positions which seem to come from Carlton Pearson's teachings. We do NOT believe all mankind is presently saved.  To enter Christ's Body, one must be born from above. Most people will NOT be born from above in this lifetime.      We, who have been given salvation should be sharing that salvation through the fruit in our lives by being joined to Christ.   If God wanted to save the entire planet today, He easily could. But He has a plan. In that plan, salvation is extended to people in an order, that order extends beyond our present age.   There is a liberality among those who teach the Doctrine of Inclusion which violates a whole host of Scriptures dealing with restraining the body with its lusts. Some teach there is no more such thing as sin. We believe in Holiness, not necessarily the Holiness Pentecostal form of heavy legalism, but we believe God holds us accountable to living a moral and orderly life." - Gary Amirault, Tentmaker Ministries"

http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/tm's-beliefs-regarding-universal-reconciliation/

Just so I may have it clear from the moderators:

Is someone discouraged, or not allowed, to share the victory of Yeshua for all if he or she believes that Yeshua is the savior or all, meaning that all have been saved or delivered from what the first Adam brought into the world, but still need to be saved experientially by belief in Yeshua, which Paul referred to as 'especially of believers?

Sort of the same as when Paul wrote that elders who preside in an ideal way were worthy of double honor, which means that all of them were included in this double honor, but among them was another group of those especially due this honor, those who presided with much toiling and labor in the word and teaching. All included, yet a distinction among them.

The Eastern church, which has always held to this inclusive teaching, does not teach the implications that Carlton Pearson appears to hold to. There is still sin in our members, whether one is a believer or not. Sin still does exist, although inactivated for those who live by His faith and not by works of law. I bring this particular point up because of what I read in your quote.

If you could please clarify so that unwanted posts do not continue to appear.

Shalom,

Ronen

[marie glen]

Welcome Charlie Brown II! :hiya:

Our heavenly Father, who is love, will bring all to belief/realization, which is what saves! O what a wise God we serve!! He is SO faithful!! We cannot conceive of the wonders which will be..

It's so wonderful each time to hear from those to whom He has revealed, in this lifetime, the true scope and success(!) of His "Great Plan of Salvation"!

God bless & welcome to Tentmaker Forums, I hope we hear a lot from you! :smile:

[Searching_For_The_Truth]

Hi Charlie.  You may find this useful;

excerpt - "While we, at Tentmaker Ministries are glad Carlton Pearson has abandoned the traditional belief that most people are going to endlessly burn in Hell, we do not hold to some key positions which seem to come from Carlton Pearson's teachings. We do NOT believe all mankind is presently saved.  To enter Christ's Body, one must be born from above. Most people will NOT be born from above in this lifetime.      We, who have been given salvation should be sharing that salvation through the fruit in our lives by being joined to Christ.   If God wanted to save the entire planet today, He easily could. But He has a plan. In that plan, salvation is extended to people in an order, that order extends beyond our present age.   There is a liberality among those who teach the Doctrine of Inclusion which violates a whole host of Scriptures dealing with restraining the body with its lusts. Some teach there is no more such thing as sin. We believe in Holiness, not necessarily the Holiness Pentecostal form of heavy legalism, but we believe God holds us accountable to living a moral and orderly life." - Gary Amirault, Tentmaker Ministries"

http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/tm's-beliefs-regarding-universal-reconciliation/

:iagree:

[gregoryfl]

As a follow up to my post above, here is a quote concerning the view I believe Charlie, and myself, and apparently some others here, hold to, at least in essence:

However, the word "salvation" is used in the Scripture with two different meanings.

"In the preaching of the Apostles, especially worthy of attention is the fact that they precisely teach us to distinguish between the truth of the salvation of mankind as a whole, which has already been accomplished, and another truth – the necessity for a personal reception and assimilation of the gift of salvation on the part of each of the faithful, and the fact that this latter salvation depends upon each one himself. Ye are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God, writes the Apostle Paul (Eph. 2:8); but he also teaches, Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12).[14]

"Our objective salvation is realized only in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, whereas our personal or subjective salvation, which in the language of the New Testament is called "righteousness", "holiness", or "salvation" (in the narrow sense), is realized as a continuance of this objective salvation, with our personal energy or activity acting in co-operation with Divine Energy or Grace."[15]


http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/46463.htm

[Seth]

I believe in a two fold, inner to outward salvation. The inner salvation is.in regard to the carnal.mind, and the outer is.in regard to the works which were of the carnal mind.

[jabcat]

Hi Charlie.  You may find this useful;

excerpt - "While we, at Tentmaker Ministries are glad Carlton Pearson has abandoned the traditional belief that most people are going to endlessly burn in Hell, we do not hold to some key positions which seem to come from Carlton Pearson's teachings. We do NOT believe all mankind is presently saved.  To enter Christ's Body, one must be born from above. Most people will NOT be born from above in this lifetime.      We, who have been given salvation should be sharing that salvation through the fruit in our lives by being joined to Christ.   If God wanted to save the entire planet today, He easily could. But He has a plan. In that plan, salvation is extended to people in an order, that order extends beyond our present age.   There is a liberality among those who teach the Doctrine of Inclusion which violates a whole host of Scriptures dealing with restraining the body with its lusts. Some teach there is no more such thing as sin. We believe in Holiness, not necessarily the Holiness Pentecostal form of heavy legalism, but we believe God holds us accountable to living a moral and orderly life." - Gary Amirault, Tentmaker Ministries"

http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/tm's-beliefs-regarding-universal-reconciliation/

Just so I may have it clear from the moderators:

Is someone discouraged, or not allowed, to share the victory of Yeshua for all if he or she believes that Yeshua is the savior or all, meaning that all have been saved or delivered from what the first Adam brought into the world, but still need to be saved experientially by belief in Yeshua, which Paul referred to as 'especially of believers?

Sort of the same as when Paul wrote that elders who preside in an ideal way were worthy of double honor, which means that all of them were included in this double honor, but among them was another group of those especially due this honor, those who presided with much toiling and labor in the word and teaching. All included, yet a distinction among them.

The Eastern church, which has always held to this inclusive teaching, does not teach the implications that Carlton Pearson appears to hold to. There is still sin in our members, whether one is a believer or not. Sin still does exist, although inactivated for those who live by His faith and not by works of law. I bring this particular point up because of what I read in your quote.

If you could please clarify so that unwanted posts do not continue to appear.

Shalom,

Ronen

I think (for me) to try to answer every nuance of the possible discussion would be way beyond what I'll try to provide as a very simple answer.  I think the basic clarification is the belief and stance that Christ died for all, but not all are as yet in the faith.  Many are still lost, need to realize they need the Savior, and need to hear "believe and confess and you will be saved".  As with many things, to simply say "all are already saved" can be misleading, and leave out much of the gospel.  So often clarification is needed if not initially provided - i.e., that TM isn't a Unitarian Universalist site "all roads/believe what you will because Jesus (or "the Divine" etc.) has already taken care of it, etc.".  Not that that's what anyone typically says here, or that the OP seemed to be suggesting, but again, perception, message, possible interpretations one might glean - therefor the clarification.  I wrote this quickly so I hope it makes sense and helps.  James.

[gregoryfl]

Hi Charlie.  You may find this useful;

excerpt - "While we, at Tentmaker Ministries are glad Carlton Pearson has abandoned the traditional belief that most people are going to endlessly burn in Hell, we do not hold to some key positions which seem to come from Carlton Pearson's teachings. We do NOT believe all mankind is presently saved.  To enter Christ's Body, one must be born from above. Most people will NOT be born from above in this lifetime.      We, who have been given salvation should be sharing that salvation through the fruit in our lives by being joined to Christ.   If God wanted to save the entire planet today, He easily could. But He has a plan. In that plan, salvation is extended to people in an order, that order extends beyond our present age.   There is a liberality among those who teach the Doctrine of Inclusion which violates a whole host of Scriptures dealing with restraining the body with its lusts. Some teach there is no more such thing as sin. We believe in Holiness, not necessarily the Holiness Pentecostal form of heavy legalism, but we believe God holds us accountable to living a moral and orderly life." - Gary Amirault, Tentmaker Ministries"

http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/tm's-beliefs-regarding-universal-reconciliation/

Just so I may have it clear from the moderators:

Is someone discouraged, or not allowed, to share the victory of Yeshua for all if he or she believes that Yeshua is the savior or all, meaning that all have been saved or delivered from what the first Adam brought into the world, but still need to be saved experientially by belief in Yeshua, which Paul referred to as 'especially of believers?

Sort of the same as when Paul wrote that elders who preside in an ideal way were worthy of double honor, which means that all of them were included in this double honor, but among them was another group of those especially due this honor, those who presided with much toiling and labor in the word and teaching. All included, yet a distinction among them.

The Eastern church, which has always held to this inclusive teaching, does not teach the implications that Carlton Pearson appears to hold to. There is still sin in our members, whether one is a believer or not. Sin still does exist, although inactivated for those who live by His faith and not by works of law. I bring this particular point up because of what I read in your quote.

If you could please clarify so that unwanted posts do not continue to appear.

Shalom,

Ronen

I think (for me) to try to answer every nuance of the possible discussion would be way beyond what I'll try to provide as a very simple answer.  I think the basic clarification is the belief and stance that Christ died for all, but not all are as yet in the faith.  Many are still lost, need to realize they need the Savior, and need to hear "believe and confess and you will be saved".  As with many things, to simply say "all are already saved" can be misleading, and leave out much of the gospel.  So often clarification is needed if not initially provided - i.e., that TM isn't a Unitarian Universalist site "all roads/believe what you will because Jesus (or "the Divine" etc.) has already taken care of it, etc.".  Not that that's what anyone typically says here, or that the OP seemed to be suggesting, but again, perception, message, possible interpretations one might glean - therefor the clarification.  I wrote this quickly so I hope it makes sense and helps.  James.

Yes, and for anyone to say that God reconciled all to himself in his Son on the cross can also be misleading, if that is all that is shared. And that is the purpose of discussing these things on this board, I would think, because I know when I first shared what I believed I think it was assumed that I did not believe that belief, repentance, and faith in Yeshua was necessary, since 'he did it all', which is a false doctrine.

Perhaps it could be a good thing, for clarification, as you mentioned, for some of these things to be shared. Anyone would quickly be able to tell whether someone ends up advocating those false things, and then those could be dealt with. I just hope we don't throw out the baby with the bathwater over semantics.

[jabcat]

Communication is a wonderful thing.   :laugh:

[Seth]

Hi Charlie.  You may find this useful;

excerpt - "While we, at Tentmaker Ministries are glad Carlton Pearson has abandoned the traditional belief that most people are going to endlessly burn in Hell, we do not hold to some key positions which seem to come from Carlton Pearson's teachings. We do NOT believe all mankind is presently saved.  To enter Christ's Body, one must be born from above. Most people will NOT be born from above in this lifetime.      We, who have been given salvation should be sharing that salvation through the fruit in our lives by being joined to Christ.   If God wanted to save the entire planet today, He easily could. But He has a plan. In that plan, salvation is extended to people in an order, that order extends beyond our present age.   There is a liberality among those who teach the Doctrine of Inclusion which violates a whole host of Scriptures dealing with restraining the body with its lusts. Some teach there is no more such thing as sin. We believe in Holiness, not necessarily the Holiness Pentecostal form of heavy legalism, but we believe God holds us accountable to living a moral and orderly life." - Gary Amirault, Tentmaker Ministries"

http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/tm's-beliefs-regarding-universal-reconciliation/

Just so I may have it clear from the moderators:

Is someone discouraged, or not allowed, to share the victory of Yeshua for all if he or she believes that Yeshua is the savior or all, meaning that all have been saved or delivered from what the first Adam brought into the world, but still need to be saved experientially by belief in Yeshua, which Paul referred to as 'especially of believers?

Sort of the same as when Paul wrote that elders who preside in an ideal way were worthy of double honor, which means that all of them were included in this double honor, but among them was another group of those especially due this honor, those who presided with much toiling and labor in the word and teaching. All included, yet a distinction among them.

The Eastern church, which has always held to this inclusive teaching, does not teach the implications that Carlton Pearson appears to hold to. There is still sin in our members, whether one is a believer or not. Sin still does exist, although inactivated for those who live by His faith and not by works of law. I bring this particular point up because of what I read in your quote.

If you could please clarify so that unwanted posts do not continue to appear.

Shalom,

Ronen

I think (for me) to try to answer every nuance of the possible discussion would be way beyond what I'll try to provide as a very simple answer.  I think the basic clarification is the belief and stance that Christ died for all, but not all are as yet in the faith.  Many are still lost, need to realize they need the Savior, and need to hear "believe and confess and you will be saved".  As with many things, to simply say "all are already saved" can be misleading, and leave out much of the gospel.  So often clarification is needed if not initially provided - i.e., that TM isn't a Unitarian Universalist site "all roads/believe what you will because Jesus (or "the Divine" etc.) has already taken care of it, etc.".  Not that that's what anyone typically says here, or that the OP seemed to be suggesting, but again, perception, message, possible interpretations one might glean - therefor the clarification.  I wrote this quickly so I hope it makes sense and helps.  James.

:iagree:

There is definitely a way to understand UR that personally believe missed the whole point of what Jesus came to save us from.

[marie glen]

Hi Charlie.  You may find this useful;

excerpt - "While we, at Tentmaker Ministries are glad Carlton Pearson has abandoned the traditional belief that most people are going to endlessly burn in Hell, we do not hold to some key positions which seem to come from Carlton Pearson's teachings. We do NOT believe all mankind is presently saved.  To enter Christ's Body, one must be born from above. Most people will NOT be born from above in this lifetime.      We, who have been given salvation should be sharing that salvation through the fruit in our lives by being joined to Christ.   If God wanted to save the entire planet today, He easily could. But He has a plan. In that plan, salvation is extended to people in an order, that order extends beyond our present age.   There is a liberality among those who teach the Doctrine of Inclusion which violates a whole host of Scriptures dealing with restraining the body with its lusts. Some teach there is no more such thing as sin. We believe in Holiness, not necessarily the Holiness Pentecostal form of heavy legalism, but we believe God holds us accountable to living a moral and orderly life." - Gary Amirault, Tentmaker Ministries"

http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/tm's-beliefs-regarding-universal-reconciliation/

Just so I may have it clear from the moderators:

Is someone discouraged, or not allowed, to share the victory of Yeshua for all if he or she believes that Yeshua is the savior or all, meaning that all have been saved or delivered from what the first Adam brought into the world, but still need to be saved experientially by belief in Yeshua, which Paul referred to as 'especially of believers?

Sort of the same as when Paul wrote that elders who preside in an ideal way were worthy of double honor, which means that all of them were included in this double honor, but among them was another group of those especially due this honor, those who presided with much toiling and labor in the word and teaching. All included, yet a distinction among them.

The Eastern church, which has always held to this inclusive teaching, does not teach the implications that Carlton Pearson appears to hold to. There is still sin in our members, whether one is a believer or not. Sin still does exist, although inactivated for those who live by His faith and not by works of law. I bring this particular point up because of what I read in your quote.

If you could please clarify so that unwanted posts do not continue to appear.

Shalom,

Ronen

I think (for me) to try to answer every nuance of the possible discussion would be way beyond what I'll try to provide as a very simple answer.  I think the basic clarification is the belief and stance that Christ died for all, but not all are as yet in the faith.  Many are still lost, need to realize they need the Savior, and need to hear "believe and confess and you will be saved".  As with many things, to simply say "all are already saved" can be misleading, and leave out much of the gospel.  So often clarification is needed if not initially provided - i.e., that TM isn't a Unitarian Universalist site "all roads/believe what you will because Jesus (or "the Divine" etc.) has already taken care of it, etc.".  Not that that's what anyone typically says here, or that the OP seemed to be suggesting, but again, perception, message, possible interpretations one might glean - therefor the clarification.  I wrote this quickly so I hope it makes sense and helps.  James.

Oh yes! we know how so many think Universal Reconciliation and Redemption is Universalism which seems to believe all roads/beliefs, lead to the Father.. (I've found myself thinking many faiths are searching for the light, which we know is Jesus, but that's neither here nor there considering UR as compared to Universalism)..

But when we first come to the realization and understanding of UR, the wording may not be, and likely isn't right on in all points.. And then again, even the most mature UR believer likely hasn't every perception of the truth 100% though I suppose we all try - I myself have a funny gene which doesn't let me rest until I feel I know the truth of something, and I hate untruth which sentiment has actually gotten me into trouble a time or two! :o

But of course the description of Universal Redemption/Reconciliation through believing in Jesus and repentance, is the main thing.. We can at first appear to be Universalist, just by our wording, when in fact we were UR all along and not Universalist.. And having the clearer wording clarified can aide the UR cause and prevent misunderstanding by any other readers and posters..

[Charlie Brown II]

Hi Everyone!

It was great to read all your responses. I found them all so helpful, especially the one from gregoryfl ....

'As a follow up to my post above, here is a quote concerning the view I believe Charlie, and myself, and apparently some others here, hold to, at least in essence:

However, the word "salvation" is used in the Scripture with two different meanings.

"In the preaching of the Apostles, especially worthy of attention is the fact that they precisely teach us to distinguish between the truth of the salvation of mankind as a whole, which has already been accomplished, and another truth – the necessity for a personal reception and assimilation of the gift of salvation on the part of each of the faithful, and the fact that this latter salvation depends upon each one himself. Ye are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God, writes the Apostle Paul (Eph. 2:8); but he also teaches, Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12).[14]

"Our objective salvation is realized only in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, whereas our personal or subjective salvation, which in the language of the New Testament is called "righteousness", "holiness", or "salvation" (in the narrow sense), is realized as a continuance of this objective salvation, with our personal energy or activity acting in co-operation with Divine Energy or Grace."[15]'

This is great food for thought and an encouragement in knowing how to frame this.

Here is another quote that I have found helpful... drive it around the block and tell me what you think!

...........................

In discussing the doctrine of universal reconciliation in Christ one of the objections you often hear is that this doctrine rejects the cross of Jesus, rejects the atoning work of Jesus's death. This is a huge misunderstanding.

The issue, in my opinion, boils down to this: Is forgiveness actual or potential?

Ponder the relationship between God and those who, at this moment, stand in a place of rebellion toward God. Are these people, in light of Jesus's death for them, already forgiven? Or is God currently withholding forgiveness, waiting for the person to respond and repent? In the former forgiveness is actual--the death of Jesus created a new state of affairs, a new reality, a reality where the wall of enmity between God and humanity has been eradicated. In the latter view forgiveness is potential--you're not yet forgiven. The death of Christ, in this view, merely opens up the possibility for forgiveness. But as things stand right now you are not forgiven.

What we all agree on is that pistis means "faith" in Greek and that christou means "Christ." So far so good. But in the Greek there is some genitive ambiguity concerning how the two nouns--faith and Christ--are to relate to each other. Martin Luther, and those who followed him, translated Pistis Christou as "faith in Christ." But a growing number of scholars (e.g., Richard Hays, N.T. Wright) have argued that the proper translation of Pistis Christou should be "faith of Christ."

Theologically, the translational differences go to the issue of the actual versus potential nature of forgiveness. In Martin Luther's rendering--faith in Jesus--forgiveness is potential. Forgiveness is contingent upon the act of faith. You need to believe and then, once you've done that, you are forgiven. By contrast, the New Perspective rendering--faith of Jesus--focuses upon the faithfulness of Jesus in creating a new reality. Because of the work of Christ on the cross the wall of hostility and accusation between God and humanity was finally and decisively broken down. Forgiveness becomes our new reality. A new world has been created. Everyone has already been forgiven in Christ. The call is to recognize this reality and live into it. To trust (have "faith in") what the faithfulness of Jesus has accomplished for us "while we were yet sinners."

All this to say that the doctrine of universal reconciliation is richly informed by the New Perspective in seeing forgiveness as a currently existing reality.

Because of the atoning death of Jesus on the cross forgiveness is actual. Because of the cross a new reality has been created between God and humanity. Faith is recognizing that reality and rejoicing in it.

Dr. Richard Beck

...

I just love that stuff!

Shalom

Charlie Brown II

[gregoryfl]

The response and objection I usually have gotten when sharing the good news that all will eventually choose to love God as their Father and believe in the all encompassing work of his Son, Yeshua, is that somehow that makes Yeshua's death meaningless, and makes evangelism unnecessary, since everyone is going to end up 'with God in the end' anyway.

I find it no different with my understanding that Yeshua is the savior of all, has dealt with sin for all as an atonement covering, and served as the means for God to reconcile everyone to himself, for a similar objection comes up, that such thinking means there is nothing to be saved from now, no need to repent, believe, turn to him, but just to live as you are, since he has already saved, forgiven, and reconciled everyone.

The lamb was slain from the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8), yet that did not preclude Yeshua's need to give himself over to be slain during his physical life in the 1st century. (Joh 19:17,18)

Paul said that everyone lives, moves, and exists in Him (Act 17:28), yet that did not preclude Paul's experience on the road to Damascus, in which he came to be in Him. (Rom 16:7)

Yeshua is the savior of all men (1Ti 4:10), yet this does not preclude the need to be saved. (Act 16:31)

All were reconciled to God in Yeshua on the cross (2Co 5:19), yet that did not preclude the need for all to be reconciled to God. (2Co 5:20)

God has subjected all things under his son's feet (Heb 2:8), yet this does not preclude that fact that all things will be subjected to him. (1Co 15:28) I especially like this one because Paul goes on to say that, even though all things HAVE BEEN subjected, BUT at this time we still DO NOT SEE all things subjected to him, yet.

In other words, if we go by what we can see, and that alone, we would have to disagree with God and say that NO, not all has been subjected.

I could go on with many more examples, but from my understanding, these provide ample evidences of the big view, vs. our peephole view.

There is a huge difference between God's declaration and view of all, and our experience and view of the same.

Ronen

[Seth]

I have a Romans 4:17 view of that personally.

[bushy]

I don't think I can add much to this discussion but to say I think it is one of the best threads I've ever seen here. I just found this piece added today by Roger Tutt which is right on this subject.

FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #3

GRACE OVERWHELMS

What I perceive to be a basic issue.

People who don't think salvation is 100% by God, not just 100% "provided" by God like to be in the hands of their own "free" will. That is where they feel most secure.

IMO, that is a basic difference between ETers and URs.

Just like in the case of Lydia (whose heart the Lord opened, Acts 16:14) and Saul of Tarsus (Acts 9:1-8), our cooperation to be saved is the result, not the cause, of God laying hold on us by His sovereign grace and causing Jesus to be "choice" in our heart.

The timing of the salvation of everyone is under God's sovereign control, some sooner, the rest later.

HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE - James Coram
CHOOSING WHAT IS CHOICE
biblical studies: His Achievement Are We - Part 9 - Choosing What Is Choice
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/HisAchievement/HisAchievement009.html
"No one to whom Christ is not yet choice can choose Christ.
And Christ cannot be choice to anyone to whom He has not yet been made choice.
When He is made choice He becomes choice and so is choice; or to say the same thing, He is chosen.
This first act of the believer in which Christ is consciously chosen, is merely a consequence of his new mental preference which has been graciously granted to him by God."

[eaglesway]

Hi Bushy, I essentially agree with your post. Where I think there is a grey area is this- "Does God then grant some believers who He has called/chosen to retain a carnal mindset, to fail to realize the promises of God and to labor still in futility- such as the Corinthians in 1 Cor 1-3(For you are still carnal, as there is envying, strife and divisions...), or Galatians 3:1(O foolish Galatians who has bewitched you?), or Hebrews 2-4(Today harden not your hearts....for as the promise remains, we see that not all entered).

It is clear that Jesus taught, "No man comes to me except the Father draw him" and that He said, "If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me"... so it is clear that whosever He(Father) foreknew He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son."

The ways in which we define this grey area, and the effects of the exhortations of God upon us who dwell in that grey area, are sometimes attempts(imo) to eliminate the mystery from a mystery God will not truly unlock until we kno as we are known- I myself am not absolute on any side of that issue other than to hold the door pf possibilities open for a certain greyness which, again, imo, no systematic theology I have explored fully satisfies. :o)

[eaglesway]

Personally, I take the whole context of scripture view on that.

[maryc]

For what it is worth, this is the way I see it.

God sees things from an eternal viewpoint. There is no time in God's viewpoint. Time is part of the creation of God, a measurement for finite minds between the occurring of events.

While God sees things from an eternal viewpoint, humans experience things in the unfolding of time. Christ's atonement on the Cross effectively saved all people for all time. And that is the way God sees it. He sees all in Christ.  However, from our viewpoint, in time, all are not yet in Christ.

A person is not IN CHRIST until he or she is born again spiritually. It is God's goal that all come to be IN CHRIST. But all are not yet in Christ. So we should still preach the gospel to every creature, so that all may come to know, love and accept Christ, Who died to save us all.

That is the purpose of the elect of this age, and explains so much of the New Testament that speaks of the elect. The elect are those born again spiritually in this age who help others come into the Kingdom, i.e. come to be IN CHRIST.

The atonement is not efficacious to anyone until that person is born again and comes to faith. Then Christ is working in him to bring him to perfection. Still, Christ may be at work in a non-believer also, in a way we cannot see or understand, to bring that person to faith. Since God loves all souls He has created and ultimately in time will bring all to salvation, then we should view all people with His kind of Love.

[jabcat]

For what it is worth, this is the way I see it.

God sees things from an eternal viewpoint. There is no time in God's viewpoint. Time is part of the creation of God, a measurement for finite minds between the occurring of events.

While God sees things from an eternal viewpoint, humans experience things in the unfolding of time. Christ's atonement on the Cross effectively saved all people for all time. And that is the way God sees it. He sees all in Christ.  However, from our viewpoint, in time, all are not yet in Christ.

A person is not IN CHRIST until he or she is born again spiritually. It is God's goal that all come to be IN CHRIST. But all are not yet in Christ. So we should still preach the gospel to every creature, so that all may come to know, love and accept Christ, Who died to save us all.

That is the purpose of the elect of this age, and explains so much of the New Testament that speaks of the elect. The elect are those born again spiritually in this age who help others come into the Kingdom, i.e. come to be IN CHRIST.

The atonement is not efficacious to anyone until that person is born again and comes to faith. Then Christ is working in him to bring him to perfection. Still, Christ may be at work in a non-believer also, in a way we cannot see or understand, to bring that person to faith. Since God loves all souls He has created and ultimately in time will bring all to salvation, then we should view all people with His kind of Love.

:iagree:   I believe that's scripturally sound.