What did Yeshua die for?

[gregoryfl]

When Yeshua walked the earth, we know that there were many who loved what he did and found his teaching fascinating. Many of such believed:

Now when he was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed in his name, observing his signs which he did.

(Joh 2:23)

Ironically however, he did not find this to be such a good and positive endorsement:

But Jesus didn't trust himself to them, because he knew everyone,

(Joh 2:24)

He knew something about man and man's ability to 'trust', which is vitally important to what Yeshua came to deal with.

Here is just one small example of what he knew about everyone. During one of his times of teaching, John writes:

As he spoke these things, many believed in him. Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, "If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

(Joh 8:30-32)

His words struck a cord with these 'believers', because they get offended by his remark:

They answered him, "We are Abraham's seed, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How do you say, 'You will be made free?' "

(Joh 8:33)

Yeshua proceeds to bring more light into the picture, exposing things concerning them, and they get more and more upset, to the point of speaking evil of him:

Then the Jews answered him, "Don't we say well that you are a Samaritan, and have a demon?"

(Joh 8:48)

Then, the teaching session ends with an attempt to put Yeshua, the one they believed in a short time before, to death!

Therefore they took up stones to throw at him, but Jesus was hidden, and went out of the temple, having gone through the midst of them, and so passed by.

(Joh 8:59)

The disciples, in particular, the 12 chosen by him, believed in him, and followed him right down to the end right? Wrong, for just as he was being taken into custody...

They all left him, and fled.

(Mar 14:50)

When he died, their hopes were dashed, and they were no longer persuaded concerning the truth of what he told them...

But we were hoping that it was he who would redeem Israel. Yes, and besides all this, it is now the third day since these things happened.

(Luk 24:21)

Their unbelief continued even a short time after his resurrection:

They went away and told it to the rest. They didn't believe them, either. Afterward he was revealed to the eleven themselves as they sat at the table, and he rebuked them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they didn't believe those who had seen him after he had risen.

(Mar 16:13-14)

It took them seeing him personally, and for Thomas to touch him, for them to be persuaded and thus in a position to believe, to truly believe.

I am saying all of this to emphasize this important point:

It was vitally important that Yeshua have no believers when he died, for no one to be persuaded of what he was about to do, for this is the root reason he came to deal with. Not being persuaded regarding the truthfulness and faithfulness of our Creator is and has always been the root cause of every inward result of unbelief and every outward result of disobedience.

I used to think that Yeshua took all of my individual sins, each instance of disobedience, and of everyone else as well, and dealt with them all individually (untold numbers of them) when he died. I want to submit to you that he did indeed deal with individual sins and disobedience, but not directly.

If you want to get rid of a tree, you do not cut the branches or pick the fruit from it, nor do you merely cut the trunk. The branches and fruit will grow back, and everything below the cut trunk will continue to grow. You must get rid of the roots.

If Yeshua merely dealt with disobedience (branches) or the various ways in which it expresses itself as sins (leaves, fruit, nuts), or even the unbelief producing them (trunk) the symptoms would be temporarily dealt with, but the root cause would remain. That root cause is unpersuadableness.

And herein is the reason why it was so vitally important for there to be no followers, no believers, none persuaded, when he died. He took the entire worlds unpersuadableness, and brought judgment to it on his cross. In this way he dealt with the root of the issue, thus dealing with the unbelief, disobedience and sin as well.

Paul knew of this marvelous truth, and the ramifications of it, when he wrote of the entire human race:

for God did confine everyone in non persuasiveness (לא  מתטפיסנותא), that upon every man He would nurture.

(Rom 11:32) My translation

Most translations have the word 'disobedience' in place of 'non persuasiveness'. However...

The Greek for disobedience is παρακοης, and for non persuasiveness απειθειαν. Similarly, in Aramaic, disobedience is לא  משׁתמענותא, and non persuasiveness is לא  מתטפיסנותא. You can see the word for disobedience in places like Rom 5:19. As you can see, they are two totally different words with different meanings.

He did not shut everyone up to disobedience (παρακοης,  לא  משׁתמענותא, an outward symptom), but rather to unpersuasiveness (απειθειαν,  לא  מתטפיסנותא, an inward root cause from which all unbelief and disobedience comes).

The implications of this are huge. Many have been taught to think that our belief or unbelief affects God ability to do what he desires. On the surface it appears to be true, but our unbelief (which comes from an unpersuaded heart) does not keep God from doing what he sets out to accomplish for us, and I am so thankful to God for that. As Paul said:

What then? If some did not believe, does their unbelief nullify the faithfulness of God? Absolutely not! (Rom 3:3-4)

And if we have not believed in him, he abides in his faithfulness, for he cannot reject his soul. (2Ti 2:13)

Our persuasion or lack of it does not change the facts, it simply affects how we experience those facts. Acting on persuasion (believing in faith) is vital, but not because it makes God now do his part of the equation to make something true that, until then, is not. Rather, it is because it joins us with the truth of what God did in Messiah so that we may now experience it as it is meant to be. In other words, he is not waiting for us to believe before he goes to the bank and puts the money in our account. Instead, he put the money in our account 2000 years ago, and is calling us to be persuaded of that truth, head to the bank, withdraw the money, and use it.

Another example: If I made your favorite food, and kept it preserved for you in the fridge, and told you about it, you could do at least one of two things.

You could be unpersuaded , and thus choose to not believe me and never get that food out and eat it. Your doing this does not change the facts however...your favorite food is there for you, waiting on you in the fridge.

Or you could (hopefully) be persuaded, choose to believe me, get that food out and eat it. You have not changed the fact that I made your favorite food sometime in the past and stuck it in the fridge for you. You have merely joined with what was expected to come out of that belief...to eat the favorite food I made. You have now experienced that reality; that truth.

By his shutting up everyone in their unpersuasiveness, God demonstrated to the entire cosmos not only that the root would be dealt with, but also that one's lack of positive persuasion would never serve as an excuse to deny the truth of what God had done. You see, this flies in the face of many who believe that the only sin Messiah did not die for is the sin of unbelief (the inward result of unpesuasiveness). They say this because they erroneously believe that God only did what he did in Messiah as an opportunity, not an actuality. The actuality, they say, can only come when you join your faith, your belief, with him. He then does his part and makes the opportunity an actuality. Your belief becomes the catalyst for salvation, justification, sanctification, and redemption.

As you can see though, unpersuasiveness is specifically what he died for. This does not mean that he did not die for our sins, for that is true. But the way in which he did so was in taking our unpersuasiveness upon himself, and continuing as one fully persuaded, even to the point of death, thus judging it, and all mankind. What he did, he did as an actuality. Your being persuaded can never change it. It can only change how you experience it.

Like Paul, I marvel at the manifest wisdom of God at how he dealt with this, in ways that are beyond man's considerations.

Ronen

[micah7:9]

Isn't this the same question asked in Apologetic Support...... Why did Christ die?  Just curious :Chinscratch:

[gregoryfl]

I just looked over the posts for that question, and this is totally a different angle and question. Not related.

[micah7:9]

Okedokey!

Yes I see your position and agree very much. I posted before reading. :sigh:

[lomarah]

Ronen, thank you thank you thank you for posting this. Praise Yeshua and the Father who sent Him. (Is it any coincidence that He has me reading a book called 'The Biology of Belief' and then had you write this post? No sir.)

Wow, what a revelation! He's been showing me similar things but not to this magnitude. Thank you so much brother, I can't tell you how much this post blessed me.

[sheila]

 :thumbsup:   nevertheless,when the son of man returns will He find faith[beleif] on earth?

       ......the original sin entered in the garden...when Eve was persuaded to not beleive

      the Word of God ....and we have God's mind on those who took pleasure

   in a lie.   I am convinced that God can make a believer out of all of us!!

     who does not recognize the truth when they hear it/see it? surely the confused,

   the blind, the deaf..........the deceived...

     a lie changes your'e whole perception of reality...there can be no right judgement

   wisdom or discernment....without truth,nor trust or love

.we have to know truth[facts] to make sound judgements....we have to believe[trust]

  in God that He  speak's truth.......

       innocence without discernment makes one gullible....innocence with discernment

    makes one  wise.[ye must be wise as serpents yet innocent as doves]


    sometimes  truth and love must stand alone..eh? and it will always be proved...

   for it will never fail...

 

[lomarah]

Yes Sheila, amen. These are some of the things He has been revealing to me. The same lie we believed in the garden...

[rosered]

 

I am saying all of this to emphasize this important point:

It was vitally important that Yeshua have no believers when he died, for no one to be persuaded of what he was about to do, for this is the root reason he came to deal with. Not being persuaded regarding the truthfulness and faithfulness of our Creator is and has always been the root cause of every inward result of unbelief and every outward result of disobedience.

I used to think that Yeshua took all of my individual sins, each instance of disobedience, and of everyone else as well, and dealt with them all individually (untold numbers of them) when he died. I want to submit to you that he did indeed deal with individual sins and disobedience, but not directly.

If you want to get rid of a tree, you do not cut the branches or pick the fruit from it, nor do you merely cut the trunk. The branches and fruit will grow back, and everything below the cut trunk will continue to grow. You must get rid of the roots.

If Yeshua merely dealt with disobedience (branches) or the various ways in which it expresses itself as sins (leaves, fruit, nuts), or even the unbelief producing them (trunk) the symptoms would be temporarily dealt with, but the root cause would remain. That root cause is unpersuadableness.

And herein is the reason why it was so vitally important for there to be no followers, no believers, none persuaded, when he died. He took the entire worlds unpersuadableness, and brought judgment to it on his cross. In this way he dealt with the root of the issue, thus dealing with the unbelief, disobedience and sin as well.

Paul knew of this marvelous truth, and the ramifications of it, when he wrote of the entire human race:

for God did confine everyone in non persuasiveness (לא  מתטפיסנותא), that upon every man He would nurture

   Thanks for the Clarity  Ronen  !!  a revelation for sure   

   I love   it ,   also  clarifies for me these  scriptures to build upon ,  Being "  rooted grounded Christ  /Love" 

  new roots, new tree,  new Life   :HeartThrob:


Col  2 ;7

having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.

Eph  3 :17

and that the Messiah may dwell in your hearts through faith. I pray that you, being rooted and firmly established in love,


  making the proof of the fruit  in the root [Christ/Love of God manifested to us [proof ]  in  a new creation ]    1C ORINTIANS  15
 

[lomarah]

Oh my gosh! He just showed me something else. He had already told me awhile back that the cross of Christ represented (for lack of a better word) the tree of life and the two thieves beside Him represented the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. (I think I may have posted on that sometime before. Maybe not, I can't remember.) In any case what He just showed me is that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was all about unbelief (or not trusting/truly knowing our Fathers heart). The tree of life is all about faith (Jesus believed His Father and was obedient even unto death!!). Truly He shut us all up in unbelief when He kicked Adam and Eve out of the garden and pit the cherubim there with their flaming swords, blocking the way to the tree of life!! (I'm still wondering what the cherubim and flaming swords are spiritually... anyone know??)

[rosered]

Oh my gosh! He just showed me something else. He had already told me awhile back that the cross of Christ represented (for lack of a better word) the tree of life and the two thieves beside Him represented the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. (I think I may have posted on that sometime before. Maybe not, I can't remember.) In any case what He just showed me is that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was all about unbelief (or not trusting/truly knowing our Fathers heart). The tree of life is all about faith (Jesus believed His Father and was obedient even unto death!!). Truly He shut us all up in unbelief when He kicked Adam and Eve out of the garden and pit the cherubim there with their flaming swords, blocking the way to the tree of life!! (I'm still wondering what the cherubim and flaming swords are spiritually... anyone know??)

Certainly there is spiritually  understanding  in this   sis !   its huge

  I always wondered why   Hebrews   never told  fully this revelation in  Hebrews 9

  The Old and the New

      1Now even the first covenant had regulations of divine worship and the earthly sanctuary.

2For there was a tabernacle prepared, the outer one, in which were the lampstand and the table and the sacred bread; this is called the holy place.

3Behind the second veil there was a tabernacle which is called the Holy of Holies,


4having a golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden jar holding the manna, and Aaron's rod which budded, and the tables of the covenant;


5and above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat; but of these things we cannot now speak in detail.[/color]

I wonder if its not the right time till Jesus comes in     the Spirit of the Holy Spirit witness  to reveal this to us  about the  great  grace    given   ?  no longer under the  old  Law  but the new Law established  being

   Romans 10 :4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.  !!!!!!!!!!!!!    building on Faith in HIM !!!

[sheila]

lovedthis!   yes the two cherubian are Jesus Christ'word of God come in flesh" and

  the Holy spirit.   they have to lead us/show us the way..to the tree of life......

   because they are the truth and the life in the tree of life...the resurrection and the life

   the 'word of God is a two edged sword..to discerning of intents of the heart"

    he will speak of what pertains to me...he will not speak of his own...

[sheila]

I am the true bread from heaven that gives life to the world[tol]

  note this cherub guarding the way through the word of God come in flesh......ye are

  of your father the devil...why do ye seek to kill me.....if ye were of the father you

  would love me...they do not accept my word....because the truth is not in them

........  guarding the way..............

[sheila]

Rev ch 2..I will give the right to eat from the tree of life.....otherwise I will soon come to

  you and fight against them with the sword of my mouth

[rosered]

 :thumbsup: 

Amen !!    roots of new Life from the Tree of Life  Jesus Christ

John 15  (NASB)

Jesus Is the Vine—Followers Are Branches
15 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.



2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He [a]prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.


4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.

5 I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.


6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.


8 My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so [d]prove to be My disciples. 9 Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.


11 These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.

[sheila]

yes!  heart condition..of love and truth....note Ananis and Saphirra..and this..why has

satan embolden you to lie to the Holy spirit.  the spirit of truth will lead you.....

  now to some the account of Anais and sapphira may seem harsh...and not in step

  with His greaat love and forgiveness....but He did this for our sakes...that we know

  that those who sin/lie against the Holy spirit are 'cut off" from the TOL.......

   many stripes and few...shepherd the nations with a rod ofiron[break man's clay vessel

with a quick stroke]  but even if the righteous should strike me..it would even be a

blessing!Anais and saphira delivered from snare of the devil...examples of wrath/mercy

  that men in flesh  openly show/evidence...of the unseen spirit in operation


   He come to break up the works of the devil[liar] and the gates of hell[death unbelief

  deceit] shall not prevail.......

     

[lomarah]

Awesome.

[ed]

:thumbsup: 

Amen !!    roots of new Life from the Tree of Life  Jesus Christ

John 15  (NASB)

Jesus Is the Vine—Followers Are Branches
15 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.



2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He [a]prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.


4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.

5 I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.


6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.


8 My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so [d]prove to be My disciples. 9 Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.


11 These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.

Excellent rosred.

So....................what it Jesus' word, and what are his commands.

:)

[ed]

As you can see though, unpersuasiveness is specifically what he died for. This does not mean that he did not die for our sins, for that is true. But the way in which he did so was in taking our unpersuasiveness upon himself, and continuing as one fully persuaded, even to the point of death, thus judging it, and all mankind. What he did, he did as an actuality. Your being persuaded can never change it. It can only change how you experience it.
Ronen

Thank you for thinking deeply on the passion of Christ.

There is so much more then the dogma that we hear every day.


Romans 8
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

[rosered]

 :thumbsup:

       excellent  Ed !!

[bushy]

The implications of this are huge. Many have been taught to think that our belief or unbelief affects God ability to do what he desires. On the surface it appears to be true, but our unbelief (which comes from an unpersuaded heart) does not keep God from doing what he sets out to accomplish for us, and I am so thankful to God for that. As Paul said:

What then? If some did not believe, does their unbelief nullify the faithfulness of God? Absolutely not! (Rom 3:3-4)

And if we have not believed in him, he abides in his faithfulness, for he cannot reject his soul. (2Ti 2:13)

Our persuasion or lack of it does not change the facts, it simply affects how we experience those facts. Acting on persuasion (believing in faith) is vital, but not because it makes God now do his part of the equation to make something true that, until then, is not. Rather, it is because it joins us with the truth of what God did in Messiah so that we may now experience it as it is meant to be. In other words, he is not waiting for us to believe before he goes to the bank and puts the money in our account. Instead, he put the money in our account 2000 years ago, and is calling us to be persuaded of that truth, head to the bank, withdraw the money, and use it.

Another example: If I made your favorite food, and kept it preserved for you in the fridge, and told you about it, you could do at least one of two things.

You could be unpersuaded , and thus choose to not believe me and never get that food out and eat it. Your doing this does not change the facts however...your favorite food is there for you, waiting on you in the fridge.

Or you could (hopefully) be persuaded, choose to believe me, get that food out and eat it. You have not changed the fact that I made your favorite food sometime in the past and stuck it in the fridge for you. You have merely joined with what was expected to come out of that belief...to eat the favorite food I made. You have now experienced that reality; that truth.

By his shutting up everyone in their unpersuasiveness, God demonstrated to the entire cosmos not only that the root would be dealt with, but also that one's lack of positive persuasion would never serve as an excuse to deny the truth of what God had done. You see, this flies in the face of many who believe that the only sin Messiah did not die for is the sin of unbelief (the inward result of unpesuasiveness). They say this because they erroneously believe that God only did what he did in Messiah as an opportunity, not an actuality. The actuality, they say, can only come when you join your faith, your belief, with him. He then does his part and makes the opportunity an actuality. Your belief becomes the catalyst for salvation, justification, sanctification, and redemption.

As you can see though, unpersuasiveness is specifically what he died for. This does not mean that he did not die for our sins, for that is true. But the way in which he did so was in taking our unpersuasiveness upon himself, and continuing as one fully persuaded, even to the point of death, thus judging it, and all mankind. What he did, he did as an actuality. Your being persuaded can never change it. It can only change how you experience it.

Like Paul, I marvel at the manifest wisdom of God at how he dealt with this, in ways that are beyond man's considerations.

Ronen

Thankyou so much for this. 'You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.' Part of the truth is that Jesus became the savior of the world 2000 years ago. It's history and can't be changed. Some day the whole world will be persuaded of the truth of this and then, wow, what a place to live.  :dsunny: