Why Isn't God Clear in Communication?

[Jason76]

Why hasn't God made his revelation clear so that everyone understands universal salvation.  Why have Catholics believed in Hell for 2 thousand years without question, and Protestants for nearly 500?  In fact, God makes many things unclear, and so people find things out for themselves with great pain. 

Even some groups like Jehovah's Witnesses have made progress throwing off the Catholic, and Protestant yokes, but still have major errors, and are nothing near universalism thinking.   What about Mormons and Muslims who are convinced their way is right?

[Ross]

No man comes to the Father unless he is called.
Everyone knows about Him, but not their time to learn about the first resurrection. They will learn at the great white throne of judgment.
Good example about this knowing "about" him is like we know a lot "about" your president, but only those who he talks to personally know him at a deeper level. Still under the same government, just different levels of understanding.
In the great white throne era people will have the correction and development of their understanding.
The first resurrection is for the ecclesia who have been appointed before the world began so that no man can glorify himself.

[Seth]

Here's what I think is happening: for unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom, but unto them it is not given. (Matt 13:11)

I think the reason for that is that God is doing everything in a specific order, not all all at once. He compared the kingdom of God to yeast that God added to three measures of meal until the whole was leavened.

[WhiteWings]

Jason,

Things were clear until Constantine started messing with it....

[sheila]

also,we can't get ahead of God..and His appointed time to reveal all...yet we know

at the appointed time.....every'hidden' thing shall be revealed.  Progressive enlightment

  of God,according to His will[thus..Paul's 'we see through a glass darkly"]

   But we know...there will come a time...'when every eye will see Him" and man's

  blindness for a time,shall be removed.  A time when the someone like a son of man

approached the Ancient of Days....and was found worthy to open the scrolls and

the seals on it.  We all have to grow in understanding and it occurs in His time-table

  thus the many ancient ones who died in faith not having seen the things that were

seen in Jesus' time.

   a child grows in understanding over time..and according to His teacher's education

plan.  only after having been 'fully' instructed is he like His master/teacher.

    man without understanding is as the beasts......yet,the serpent is more subtil

than any beast of the feild......thus man in his ignorance is easily outwitted by the

  serpent,easily deceived.

[micah7:9]

IMO it was all just gaining control by interpretation. May seem trivial but it reasons to me.

[Seth]

also,we can't get ahead of God..and His appointed time to reveal all...yet we know

at the appointed time.....every'hidden' thing shall be revealed.  Progressive enlightment

  of God,according to His will[thus..Paul's 'we see through a glass darkly"]

   But we know...there will come a time...'when every eye will see Him" and man's

  blindness for a time,shall be removed.  A time when the someone like a son of man

approached the Ancient of Days....and was found worthy to open the scrolls and

the seals on it.  We all have to grow in understanding and it occurs in His time-table

  thus the many ancient ones who died in faith not having seen the things that were

seen in Jesus' time.

   a child grows in understanding over time..and according to His teacher's education

plan.  only after having been 'fully' instructed is he like His master/teacher.

    man without understanding is as the beasts......yet,the serpent is more subtil

than any beast of the feild......thus man in his ignorance is easily outwitted by the

  serpent,easily deceived.

:thumbsup:

[micah7:9]

I really liked all that was said, I just was deflated somewhat with this...
" man without understanding is as the beasts......yet,the serpent is more subtil

than any beast of the feild......thus man in his ignorance is easily outwitted by the

  serpent,easily deceived."

I know there are some that weary of the OT Preacher but he was given Wisdom.
18 I´ said in my heart:
It is on account of the sons of humanity
That the One, Elohim, seeks to manifest them
And to show > them that they themselves are beasts.

And also lest we forget that "that serpent" is on a tether and man is as well at this time is limited.   :2c:

[eaglesway]

the consequence of rebellion towards our gracious God is deception.

1 Cor 4
And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.


Romans 2
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

I think the clearest example of this, as it pertains to these deceptions both within and outside of true faith, is in James

11 Does a fountain send out from the same opening both fresh and bitter water? 12 Can a fig tree, my brethren, produce olives, or a vine produce figs? Nor can salt water produce fresh.

Wisdom from Above
13 Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom. 14 But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not be arrogant and so lie against the truth. 15 This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic. 16 For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil thing. 17 But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy. 18 And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.

It is selfish ambition and bitter jealousy, the desire to control people and reap power and riches from that control, that leads to the development of these lies and errors, "And she saw that the fruit looked delicious and was good to make one wise so she ate"- and came unhooked from the love of God as the ruler of her heart. Her own reason became ruler- and Adam followed.

Now "reason" is no longer governed by love and wisdom. "Logic" is no longer embedded in the Logos(mind and heart of Christ).

Hence  we live in a world full of confusion.

All the evil in the world comes from lust, as James also says "What is the source of the wars among you? You lust and you do not have so you steal and kill"...

When a soul yields to Christ, the veil is removed.(2 Cor 3"15-18) Love ascends the throne. Reason is governed by wisdom. Logic finds its "true north", the love of God  and the mind of Christ", and this is key to understanding the salvation of all.

3 Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves; 4 do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. 5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped(used for selfish reasons), 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

And there you have it :o) Evry knee shall bow, and every tongue confess, that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

"If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead you shall be saved"

Because Jesus humbled Himself to serve rather than exalt Himself to rule evry knee shal bow and every tongue will confess. Eventually, all will be saved.

[SteveW]

Jason, I can appreciate your line of questioning in this post and others.  I have had many of the same questions.  For example, why isn't God more jealous of His reputation?  My conclusions all seem to come back to the same line of thought.  And it is a line of thought similar to what I come up with when contemplating all of the pain and suffering in the world.  I'm left believing that His priorities, focus, scale, economy, perspective, etc must certainly be beyond ours.  What we consider of importance must be a dim reflection of actuality.  I have to believe that He knows the heart of man and knows what He is doing in the course of human history and in the lives of individuals.  That doctrine, scripture, knowledge, revelation, etc. can't even begin to capture who He is or what He is doing.  That this certainly must just be the beginning, the pains of childbirth; the confusion, chaos and pain; that perhaps our only real responsibilities are quite simple:  Love, faith, hope, the fruit of the spirit.  That we have a God given desire to know and understand, but the more we know and understand the more it hopefully leads to humility and a recognition that we are blind and weak and that our most grandiose contemplations of the ineffable fall far short of a reality we will spend eternity being awed by.

Imagining what it must be like to be a physical newborn helps me imagine what my true status might be in the cosmos.  More likely than that, imagining what an infant experiences during childbirth.  What infant can fathom what awaits him outside the womb?  How could he understand it if you even tried to explain it to him?  Would it be possible to do so?  By no means.  Is it that God isn't clear, or is it that we don't have the capacity to understand?  Perhaps it is a mercy that some things aren't clearer because if they were man in his limited understanding would use those very things he only dimly understands to abuse others and become prideful.  It would just be more of the same and worse than what we have now.

Perhaps He has left it as it is so that those who are willing will give up on having to know and understand as they recognize how unclear much of it is instead of continuing to try and force everything into a tidy, definable package.  Perhaps it is a purifying of faith down to the essence.  That He is good.  That if we believe that we will want to be as well because it is ultimately attractive and we are drawn to Him as a result.  That in and of itself is an amazing message reflected by seekers of Him everywhere.  For me as a Christian it goes beyond that to faith that the resurrection of Jesus is the source and anchor of a singular hope that God is doing something amazing in and for mankind, something worthy of God.

[jabcat]

Jason, I can appreciate your line of questioning in this post and others.  I have had many of the same questions.  For example, why isn't God more jealous of His reputation?  My conclusions all seem to come back to the same line of thought.  And it is a line of thought similar to what I come up with when contemplating all of the pain and suffering in the world.  I'm left believing that His priorities, focus, scale, economy, perspective, etc must certainly be beyond ours.  What we consider of importance must be a dim reflection of actuality.  I have to believe that He knows the heart of man and knows what He is doing in the course of human history and in the lives of individuals.  That doctrine, scripture, knowledge, revelation, etc. can't even begin to capture who He is or what He is doing.  That this certainly must just be the beginning, the pains of childbirth; the confusion, chaos and pain; that perhaps our only real responsibilities are quite simple:  Love, faith, hope, the fruit of the spirit.  That we have a God given desire to know and understand, but the more we know and understand the more it hopefully leads to humility and a recognition that we are blind and weak and that our most grandiose contemplations of the ineffable fall far short of a reality we will spend eternity being awed by.

Imagining what it must be like to be a physical newborn helps me imagine what my true status might be in the cosmos.  More likely than that, imagining what an infant experiences during childbirth.  What infant can fathom what awaits him outside the womb?  How could he understand it if you even tried to explain it to him?  Would it be possible to do so?  By no means.  Is it that God isn't clear, or is it that we don't have the capacity to understand?  Perhaps it is a mercy that some things aren't clearer because if they were man in his limited understanding would use those very things he only dimly understands to abuse others and become prideful.  It would just be more of the same and worse than what we have now.

Perhaps He has left it as it is so that those who are willing will give up on having to know and understand as they recognize how unclear much of it is instead of continuing to try and force everything into a tidy, definable package.  Perhaps it is a purifying of faith down to the essence.  That He is good.  That if we believe that we will want to be as well because it is ultimately attractive and we are drawn to Him as a result.  That in and of itself is an amazing message reflected by seekers of Him everywhere.  For me as a Christian it goes beyond that to faith that the resurrection of Jesus is the source and anchor of a singular hope that God is doing something amazing in and for mankind, something worthy of God.

Thank you.  I need that.

[lastpost]

Jason, I can appreciate your line of questioning in this post and others.  I have had many of the same questions.  For example, why isn't God more jealous of His reputation?  My conclusions all seem to come back to the same line of thought.  And it is a line of thought similar to what I come up with when contemplating all of the pain and suffering in the world.  I'm left believing that His priorities, focus, scale, economy, perspective, etc must certainly be beyond ours.  What we consider of importance must be a dim reflection of actuality.  I have to believe that He knows the heart of man and knows what He is doing in the course of human history and in the lives of individuals.  That doctrine, scripture, knowledge, revelation, etc. can't even begin to capture who He is or what He is doing.  That this certainly must just be the beginning, the pains of childbirth; the confusion, chaos and pain; that perhaps our only real responsibilities are quite simple:  Love, faith, hope, the fruit of the spirit.  That we have a God given desire to know and understand, but the more we know and understand the more it hopefully leads to humility and a recognition that we are blind and weak and that our most grandiose contemplations of the ineffable fall far short of a reality we will spend eternity being awed by.

Imagining what it must be like to be a physical newborn helps me imagine what my true status might be in the cosmos.  More likely than that, imagining what an infant experiences during childbirth.  What infant can fathom what awaits him outside the womb?  How could he understand it if you even tried to explain it to him?  Would it be possible to do so?  By no means.  Is it that God isn't clear, or is it that we don't have the capacity to understand?  Perhaps it is a mercy that some things aren't clearer because if they were man in his limited understanding would use those very things he only dimly understands to abuse others and become prideful.  It would just be more of the same and worse than what we have now.

Perhaps He has left it as it is so that those who are willing will give up on having to know and understand as they recognize how unclear much of it is instead of continuing to try and force everything into a tidy, definable package.  Perhaps it is a purifying of faith down to the essence.  That He is good.  That if we believe that we will want to be as well because it is ultimately attractive and we are drawn to Him as a result.  That in and of itself is an amazing message reflected by seekers of Him everywhere.  For me as a Christian it goes beyond that to faith that the resurrection of Jesus is the source and anchor of a singular hope that God is doing something amazing in and for mankind, something worthy of God.

I also saw in this writing an honesty and insight which was and is refreshing. I wanted to express a complimentary perspective but felt it perhaps better relayed as follows, hoping that it might be of some usefulness to someone.


"By way of introduction, we say in all humility that we are not of those ancient High Ones who are so glorified in perfect purity that they can behold the Face of the Father God, albeit only with their unfurled wings afore their eyes. Yet we tell you that we are far from being restricted and hemmed in by a material body such as man is upon earth; we are filled beyond measure with God's grace and the power of the Holy Spirit which flows through us unceasingly; and our sight would be, to you, endless, although it is removed from that description when we consider the vast Spiritual Realms which belong to their Creator.

So we should say with knowledge and experience, that you should not expect to be able to penetrate, nor even peer into mysteries of which our own vision becomes hazy should we ascend too far beyond what is now our present habitation. Your curbed and restrained minds become entangled even in your material facts, so how then should those minds truly perceive and hold that which has no end, that which is infinite, that which is ultimately incomprehensible to all except the Lord of Life Himself? How should your minds take in those far-off and most distant wonders worthy of adoration, which to us, as yet, await our own eager approach in future times? You live and you learn, yet in your present bridled state, truth must be adaptable to accommodate your inability to seize it in its completeness, in its intricate and finely-presented and holy magnificence; as such it is enshrouded, veiled, that you may gain benefit from viewing something of its outlined shape. That we desire to immerse ourselves further into that which is of God which to us is, as yet, unlearnt and unknown, should surely indicate to yourselves that even that which we could unravel to you, should you be willing, would not be presented as absolute truth in its infiniteness, for endlessness is immeasurable, nor can it be gathered together into an entire entity, as you understand existent things, save in the earthly sojourn of the Saviour in the measure that could be contained in a body of flesh. Your understanding, through revelation of the Supreme Lord - the God who is Father of us all - can only be aided with what He permits by the blowing away of a few of the outer mists of the dense fog which veils Him from you.

We offer our humble obeisance to, and on bended knee we bow in sincere and earnest adoration, before the Christ, who represents and expresses He who is All-Wise, All-Loving, All-Knowing, the One God who is the Supreme Being who directs and is enthroned over creation in its wholeness. In the sense that you count time, time unthinkable yet unfolds when we shall be able to behold His brightness and approach His Presence - and forget not that we speak of He who is All-Power Itself. As perfected spirits through experience and suffering we shall be enabled entrance through the eternal walls of fire and blinding light into the inner sanctuary of the Source beyond description where dwells the God who is All-Perfect, All-Holy and All-Pure.

Yet we know the Supreme God in a way you cannot know - His wisdom, His power, His tenderness, His love - all this is available to us in a million ways hidden from your sight and understanding. We are more and increasingly more familiar with the works of God, although His Nature in its complete perfection is fathomless. We see and feel the majestic ways of God in forms too fine to be seen and felt on your earth where mortals have been accustomed to frame for themselves through their limitations, a being like unto themselves, as they turn perceptions into truth concerning the attributes of the Most High God. In the Realms of Spirit the Perfect-Intelligence which is All-pervading, loving and wise, is felt gladly and contentedly by us as His Power. He is revealed to us as mighty and efficacious, insightful and discriminating, through His executive management of a Spiritual Universe of which as yet you scarcely recognise. We know that He, the Living God, deals with us with a benevolence and affection which would stagger the beings of earth in their tabernacles of flesh should they have the capacity to feel and know the results of such Divine attributes on such a scale.

We leave the future to Him, in Him we trust; the past has been abundantly supplied with His merciful wonders and kind-hearted love; in the present we have our life and being which is replete with His sensitive designs and inspirations, His overseeing love and care. We have not once nor twice but always been experiencing His magnificence and love, and we contently and happily place our trust in His ways with a fullness and completeness where, unlike with men on earth, persuasion otherwise has no existence. We little care to imagine a distant future in the manner that men fancy to do, born out of the intelligence which is their own, for our trust in Him cements us, as it were, into fact which makes idle conjecture redundant and a frivolous waste. 

The Supreme God, the Almighty Being, the Father who sent His Son, within whom He was pleased to have His fullness dwell, is worshipped by us, is loved by us, is obeyed by us, is cherished and adored by us; our every moment is given to Him and the very impulse of our conscious being is always living for Him. We endeavour to acquire knowledge of Him that we may do His Will, for we are certain that when we minister to those of His creatures within His Creation they shall receive His benevolence, and we are thrice blessed because of it, yet we look not for gratitude from His creatures for in the main they know us not; but to Him, unceasingly, we pay full deference, knowing that the offering of Service to Him through tending to others is acceptable to His Graciousness and Majesty.

It is not ours to offer to man vistas which confound his curious mind; nor should we be permitted to lay down that which is before its time, to express that which is not beside God's Truth as man sees it but which is beyond, as far as explanation and understanding as to origin and spiritual nature is extended. We would declare that the present is of greater moment, where man's attention is directed to his condition which should never be slothful nor spent in idleness, where the laws by which he is governed, God's laws, must be obeyed, and he will see and know a development which is steadily progressive and where inertness and dullness is unknown, thus not only will happiness be experienced by him but in his actual tomorrow he knows that improvement shall be found and he will be closer in body, mind and soul to His God.

Man so far and distant from the Supreme God of all Life - and yet so close due to the power of Christ, which means that man is always in contact with his God; which although man may forget, Christ cannot separate Himself from man. Surely it is adequate to know that the future is safely governed and guided by the Hands of God, a future which permits the spirit of man, once sufficient preparation is put in, to stand shoulder to shoulder with the blessed ones in their utter purity, to whom the portals to the Holy of Holies are unfurled.

So, as one of your teachers once declared, judge us O man! But judge us by our words. Yet be certain to remember the humility of Christ; be not hasty to dismiss that which may appear different to current understanding; remember that one day the truth shall be more fully known and understood by all."