Revelation Chapter 13

[ed]

Revelation 13
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Howdy folks,

As you know I'm working Revelation for my own interest.  There are four methods of interpreting the book of Revelation; Idealist, Preterist, Historicist, and futurist.

I just finished reading a most excellent interpretation or Revelation 13:7-8 from the Idealist perspective.
http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/Revelation/rev152.htm
This is J Preston Eby's most recent writing in his current series.

The preterist view would have this event if Revelation 13 already complete.  I am interested in the other two views being historic and futurist, and where they might place the events of Revelation 13.

I am interested in how this effects the life of the believer, doctrine, and overall Bible interpretation.

:Peace2:
ed

[Seth]

This might not help much, but I come from an "is was and will be" approach, that in various ways, Revelation is fulfilled both past present and future. I also do not believe that the different approaches are guaranteed to be correct at any given time. Every one of the four interpretation methods are best guesses, and since scripture shows that God uses prophecy to lock up truth in a mystery, I don't think that man is able to come up with formulas to unlock those mysteries, or God didn't do a very good job of hiding his truths in parables.

In other words, a spiritual interpretation doesn't necessarily exclude an outward fulfillment. A past outward fulfillment doesn't exclude a future fulfillment. But my personal opinion is that there are no set formulas by which to interpret to the exclusion of others, and one can never be certain when fulfillments will be expressed outward, inward, past, present or future, or all these at once. I believe God must reveal it to us himself, and when everything comes out in the wash, we will find out the truth.

I think the best way to come to a certain meaning is to compare scripture to scripture, to see how Revelation incorporates the OT prophetic images and how that might affect the meanings.

[micah7:9]

 :happyclap:

[ed]

This might not help much, but I come from an "is was and will be" approach, that in various ways, Revelation is fulfilled both past present and future. I also do not believe that the different approaches are guaranteed to be correct at any given time. Every one of the four interpretation methods are best guesses, and since scripture shows that God uses prophecy to lock up truth in a mystery, I don't think that man is able to come up with formulas to unlock those mysteries, or God didn't do a very good job of hiding his truths in parables.

In other words, a spiritual interpretation doesn't necessarily exclude an outward fulfillment. A past outward fulfillment doesn't exclude a future fulfillment. But my personal opinion is that there are no set formulas by which to interpret to the exclusion of others, and one can never be certain when fulfillments will be expressed outward, inward, past, present or future, or all these at once. I believe God must reveal it to us himself, and when everything comes out in the wash, we will find out the truth.

I think the best way to come to a certain meaning is to compare scripture to scripture, to see how Revelation incorporates the OT prophetic images and how that might affect the meanings.

Thanks for your input Seth,

I agree that the book of Revelation has happened, is happening and will happen.  There is a grand climax, but that can be seen in each individual as well as the whole of creation.

Here is an article that I enjoyed.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/exploringourmatrix/2012/03/why-is-the-futurist-interpretation-of-revelation-so-popular.html

I learn a little here and a little there................

ed

[Seth]

Yeah, I think US nationalism plays a part, and also a fierce adherence to literalism. I actually think that plays the largest part in the futurist view. I saw a show with Jack Van Impe and he was criticizing preterism and says "has a third of the earth burned up?" What about all the hail etc etc.? They don't see all those wild things happening so they are still waiting for them to happen. I think the futurist view is probably the most insistent on rigid literalism.

[Searching_For_The_Truth]

This might not help much, but I come from an "is was and will be" approach, that in various ways, Revelation is fulfilled both past present and future. I also do not believe that the different approaches are guaranteed to be correct at any given time. Every one of the four interpretation methods are best guesses, and since scripture shows that God uses prophecy to lock up truth in a mystery, I don't think that man is able to come up with formulas to unlock those mysteries, or God didn't do a very good job of hiding his truths in parables.

In other words, a spiritual interpretation doesn't necessarily exclude an outward fulfillment. A past outward fulfillment doesn't exclude a future fulfillment. But my personal opinion is that there are no set formulas by which to interpret to the exclusion of others, and one can never be certain when fulfillments will be expressed outward, inward, past, present or future, or all these at once. I believe God must reveal it to us himself, and when everything comes out in the wash, we will find out the truth.

I think the best way to come to a certain meaning is to compare scripture to scripture, to see how Revelation incorporates the OT prophetic images and how that might affect the meanings.

Thanks for your input Seth,

I agree that the book of Revelation has happened, is happening and will happen.  There is a grand climax, but that can be seen in each individual as well as the whole of creation.

Here is an article that I enjoyed.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/exploringourmatrix/2012/03/why-is-the-futurist-interpretation-of-revelation-so-popular.html

I learn a little here and a little there................

ed

The link has an ad for Progressive Christianity. Please do not be deceived by the New Age Progressive Christianity nonsense, it compromises the truth of the Gospel

[ed]

The link has an ad for Progressive Christianity. Please do not be deceived by the New Age Progressive Christianity nonsense, it compromises the truth of the Gospel

To late, I've already been deceived..................Not to worry though, I seem to stay in that state for less and less time.

:dsunny:

[joeteekay]

This might not help much, but I come from an "is was and will be" approach, that in various ways, Revelation is fulfilled both past present and future. I also do not believe that the different approaches are guaranteed to be correct at any given time. Every one of the four interpretation methods are best guesses, and since scripture shows that God uses prophecy to lock up truth in a mystery, I don't think that man is able to come up with formulas to unlock those mysteries, or God didn't do a very good job of hiding his truths in parables.

In other words, a spiritual interpretation doesn't necessarily exclude an outward fulfillment. A past outward fulfillment doesn't exclude a future fulfillment. But my personal opinion is that there are no set formulas by which to interpret to the exclusion of others, and one can never be certain when fulfillments will be expressed outward, inward, past, present or future, or all these at once. I believe God must reveal it to us himself, and when everything comes out in the wash, we will find out the truth.

I think the best way to come to a certain meaning is to compare scripture to scripture, to see how Revelation incorporates the OT prophetic images and how that might affect the meanings.

Thanks for your input Seth,

I agree that the book of Revelation has happened, is happening and will happen.  There is a grand climax, but that can be seen in each individual as well as the whole of creation.

Here is an article that I enjoyed.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/exploringourmatrix/2012/03/why-is-the-futurist-interpretation-of-revelation-so-popular.html

I learn a little here and a little there................

ed

Even though  I do not subscribe to all of Mike Vinsons teachings, I find this item from his web site as a positive contribution to this thread:

http://www.iswasandwillbe.com/preterism-is-one-third-of-fulness/

[Seth]

The link has an ad for Progressive Christianity. Please do not be deceived by the New Age Progressive Christianity nonsense, it compromises the truth of the Gospel

To late, I've already been deceived..................Not to worry though, I seem to stay in that state for less and less time.

:dsunny:

:LH:

[eaglesway]

This might not help much, but I come from an "is was and will be" approach, that in various ways, Revelation is fulfilled both past present and future. I also do not believe that the different approaches are guaranteed to be correct at any given time. Every one of the four interpretation methods are best guesses, and since scripture shows that God uses prophecy to lock up truth in a mystery, I don't think that man is able to come up with formulas to unlock those mysteries, or God didn't do a very good job of hiding his truths in parables.

In other words, a spiritual interpretation doesn't necessarily exclude an outward fulfillment. A past outward fulfillment doesn't exclude a future fulfillment. But my personal opinion is that there are no set formulas by which to interpret to the exclusion of others, and one can never be certain when fulfillments will be expressed outward, inward, past, present or future, or all these at once. I believe God must reveal it to us himself, and when everything comes out in the wash, we will find out the truth.

I think the best way to come to a certain meaning is to compare scripture to scripture, to see how Revelation incorporates the OT prophetic images and how that might affect the meanings.

Thanks for your input Seth,

I agree that the book of Revelation has happened, is happening and will happen.  There is a grand climax, but that can be seen in each individual as well as the whole of creation.

Here is an article that I enjoyed.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/exploringourmatrix/2012/03/why-is-the-futurist-interpretation-of-revelation-so-popular.html

I learn a little here and a little there................

ed

Even though  I do not subscribe to all of Mike Vinsons teachings, I find this item from his web site as a positive contribution to this thread:

http://www.iswasandwillbe.com/preterism-is-one-third-of-fulness/

The writer in that link places a lot of weight on a strictly literal/historical understanding of the verse in Matthew(this generation shall not pass away)

When speaking of generations the psalmists, the prophets and Jesus Himself often spoke of TWO GENERATIONS. The generation of the righteous(Christ) and the generation of the wicked(Adam)

When Peter proclaimed the gospel he was, imo, speaking of the generation in Adam, not that specific literal generation of the Sanhedrin, who were listening to him.

Acts 2:40 And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation!"

The following verses all contribute to this view.

Psalm 12:7 You, O Lord, will keep them; You will preserve him from this generation(of the wicked) forever("olam." into the distant future)

Psalm 14:5 There they are in great dread, For God is with the righteous generation.

Psalm 24:6 This is the generation of those who seek Him, Who seek Your face—even Jacob. Selah.

Psalm 73:15 If I had said, "I will speak thus," Behold, I would have betrayed the generation of Your children.

Psalm 112:2 His descendants will be mighty on earth; The generation of the upright will be blessed.

Jeremiah 2:31 "O generation, heed the word of the Lord. Have I been a wilderness to Israel, Or a land of thick darkness? Why do My people say, 'We are free to roam; We will no longer come to You'?

Jeremiah 7:29 'Cut off your hair and cast it away, And take up a lamentation on the bare heights; For the Lord has rejected and forsaken The generation of His wrath.'

Matthew 11:16 "But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places, who call out to the other children,

Matthew 12:39 But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet;

As in Adam all die(perverse generation) so also in Christ all will be made alive(generation of His children)

I am not saying which view(literal or idealist) view Jesus was speaking in Matthew- I am just saying all the verses pertaining to a topic must be incorporated in the whole counsel of God. I view many of these types of verses in the "was and is and is to come" of God, which incorporates elements of all three views(preterist, idealist, literal/historical) when I am seeking the mind of Christ in the scriptures.

"....in hopes that the creation will be set free from corruption into the glorious liberty(love/righteousness) of the children of God" Ro 8

Eventually all the generations of man will be gathered into "the generation of His children".

[ed]

Even though  I do not subscribe to all of Mike Vinsons teachings, I find this item from his web site as a positive contribution to this thread:

http://www.iswasandwillbe.com/preterism-is-one-third-of-fulness/

Stumbled through quite a bit of that.  Thanks for posting it.

:dsunny:

Again, the Words of Christ are wholesome and they are for Paul, and for Timothy, and they are for us, if The Alpha and the Omega is in us. If He is not, if we say “the Words of Christ are not for us,” then what we are saying is that Christ Himself is not for us. And it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy and this book remains completely (seven) sealed, and we have no idea how we are to do the four horse men or the fifth, sixth, and seventh seal, with its seven trumps with their seven bowls. It was either all accomplished in 70 AD or it will be accomplished in the ‘time of the end.’ Either way, this book and “my part in it,” and me “keeping the sayings of  the prophecy  of this book,” will always be ‘out there.’  This way, this preterist or dispensational way, the time for me will never “be at hand.”  The beast will continue to have his “seat,” (Greek – throne) in my body, which Paul plainly tells us is His temple.
http://www.iswasandwillbe.com/preterism-is-one-third-of-fulness/

[Molly]

Revelation 13
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Howdy folks,

As you know I'm working Revelation for my own interest.  There are four methods of interpreting the book of Revelation; Idealist, Preterist, Historicist, and futurist.

I just finished reading a most excellent interpretation or Revelation 13:7-8 from the Idealist perspective.
http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/Revelation/rev152.htm
This is J Preston Eby's most recent writing in his current series.

The preterist view would have this event if Revelation 13 already complete.  I am interested in the other two views being historic and futurist, and where they might place the events of Revelation 13.

I am interested in how this effects the life of the believer, doctrine, and overall Bible interpretation.

:Peace2:
ed

We are seeing the beginning of this now, IMO.

Genocide of Christians Happening, Family Shot in the Faces in Refusal to Convert

The militants are now seizing control Iraq's biggest Christian town - Qaraqosh. An exodus of Christians is happening as they were only given three choices - leave, convert to Islam or face death

http://au.ibtimes.com/articles/562188/20140810/iraq-christian-genocide-isis.htm


A Christian Holocaust is in our midst. We are actually calling this a Christian genocide... Day by day, it is getting worse and worse."

http://www.rightwingnews.com/iraq/child-beheadings-forced-conversion-christian-genocide-is-happening-right-now-in-iraq/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+rightwingnews%2FhGmL+(Right+Wing+News)



The Fifth Seal: Martyrs

9When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"

11And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

--Revelation 6

[eaglesway]

The crucifixion of Christ and the martyrdom of Christians in Jerusalem led to the judgment that fell upon Jerusalem in 70  AD. The martyrdom of the Christians of Iraq will bring similar judgments upon those who have executed them. But in the end, it will be the words, "Forgive them Father for they kno not what they do",  that will set them all free from corruption into the glorious liberty of the sons of God.

[Searching_For_The_Truth]

The crucifixion of Christ and the martyrdom of Christians in Jerusalem led to the judgment that fell upon Jerusalem in 70  AD. The martyrdom of the Christians of Iraq will bring similar judgments upon those who have executed them. But in the end, it will be the words, "Forgive them Father for they kno not what they do",  that will set them all free from corruption into the glorious liberty of the sons of God.

Amen

[marie glen]

Revelation 13
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Howdy folks,

As you know I'm working Revelation for my own interest.  There are four methods of interpreting the book of Revelation; Idealist, Preterist, Historicist, and futurist.

I just finished reading a most excellent interpretation or Revelation 13:7-8 from the Idealist perspective.
http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/Revelation/rev152.htm
This is J Preston Eby's most recent writing in his current series.

The preterist view would have this event if Revelation 13 already complete.  I am interested in the other two views being historic and futurist, and where they might place the events of Revelation 13.

I am interested in how this effects the life of the believer, doctrine, and overall Bible interpretation.

:Peace2:
ed

hi! I believe the Book of Revelation is the peak and culmination of history.. the 'end' of the story as the saying goes..

I believe it is historist (from our day anyway) and also preterist, in that the seals are historist, except the 7th, which imo, we are in the pause (of man's use of the split atom in warfare) of rev 7:1.

The six seals (4 horsemen and the 5th and 6th seal) I believe are described as a blend of what they are at their beginning, and what they are in their full maturity at the very 'end'. This I believe, confuses the vision.

As does there being 2 or 3 inserts (chapters 10, 12, and 13)

It's my belief the seals are the latter age, the years of our Lord, A.D.

The rider on a white horse going out to conquer and conquering I believe is the victorious and overcoming gospel, which like the other horsemen, his ride/gallop? continues throughout/to the 'end'..

the second horseman on a red horse is war which is given a "long" or "great" sword, the same splitting of the atom.. the 3rd always follows war (shortage)

the fourth pestilence, Imo, includes chemical also, and the grave follows after him, including the mass grave..

Rev 12 is the mantle of truth worn by Israel who births the Son of man whom the dragon in the person of Herod tried to destroy at His birth but He is at the right hand of God and will rule the nations with unbreakable law and principle.. the dragon pursues the woman, 70 A.D, a first migration, for the most part, of the faith, there's war in heaven, the dragon&co no longer allowed access to the heavens, he persecutes (inquisitions) the woman/faith fiercely (the 3.5 here being days as years), but there's a 2nd migration (largely) of the faith when she is given the two wings of an eagle to fly (imo, sail) to a new place where she is kept from the "face" of the dragon for 3.5 (1620+350=1970 approx) after which time a flood/proliferation of filth/vomit is spewed after her, by the serpent/beguiling mode of the dragon, trying to wash her (the faith) from off the face of the earth,

....but the earth will open its mouth and swallow the flood (imo, grt droughy, cross ref - Luke 23:28,31 "if they do this in a green leaf" crucify me "what will they do in a dry leaf?" ..and "out of the smoke" (rev 9) of that day, marshall law five months.. (imo)

and the dragon turns his attention back to the rest of the woman's offspring who have the commandments of God and (by then?) the testimony of Jesus - cross ref - "you will not see me again Jerusalem until you say 'blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD" and "if their falling away is salvation for the gentiles, what will their gathering into Jesus be but life from the dead" (i.e. imo, the 1st resurrection at His return and beginning of His long 2nd advent..) and also rev 16:14,15,16

SORRY TO WRITE SO MUCH, but when it comes to the Bk of Rev I have no self control.. It reads like a very plain book to me.. Symbolism yes, symbolism representing events, etc.. altho at least two things are described by John as animals because things like helicopters and tanks were not known to John..

When there is thermo-nuclear warfare, albeit limited, I believe (until the 'end' that is) is when (imo) the 7th seal is opened and things speed up.. we being (NOW) in the pause of seal 6/the splitting of the atom of Rev 7:1...

Peace! :Peace2: