God's Will

[micah7:9]

Isn't that after the aggression? Hindsight.....  and hindsight is revealed after the fact. We all have hindsight and a good many times it is oops.... and from that learning, unless I have misunderstood you. :2c:

[WhiteWings]

I believe we do not have free will to cause an event.
The event was caused by the hand of God .

God can do things in many ways; including causing events in secret. So we don't always know if God is doing something or not.
Or causing no events at all. When satan was testing Job, God stepped back for a while. God stopped active protection for a while.

I think it's a matter of perspective who causes events. In the OT we repellingly see the people of Israel break God's commands. Often God doesn't punish/correct instantly but gave them some time to repent. When that time ran out God started to act again. That point is clearly God causing actions.
God never directly caused Israel to break His commands. Is doing nothing 'causing an action' too? Did God cause Israel to make a golden calf?

My point is that God can really give people free will for a while. When He gets fed up He starts forcing things His way again. Israel had God as a leader but they wanted 'more'. They wanted to rule themselves like other nations. So they got judges, kings, priests etc. At the 'end of time' Jesus will be their King. Basically that's what's happening to the whole world.

We have plenty of time to mess up things. Obviously God knew that before creation even started. When our time runs out, God takes control again by making Jesus King.

I believe we do not have free will to cause an event.
The event was caused by the hand of God .

Is passively allowing mankind to do stupid things an act of God?

[micah7:9]

"My point is that God can really give people free will for a while."

Yes, but in my opinion, He just allows them to be the creatures they are. 

[joeteekay]

When discussing the will of man or God's will we tend to often refer to free will
I submit that the word free in this context is not scriptural. In scripture the word free is usually connected with bond or free. It is Strong's G1658 and means liberated (the simple definition). It is never connected to the word will.

Free will is a philosophical term and is discussed in the schools of philosophy. Google free will for more. Note this web site, one of a number:
Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy

from this site the following under "free will":

"Free Will" is a philosophical term of art for a particular sort of capacity of rational agents to choose a course of action from among various alternatives. Which sort is the free will sort is what all the fuss is about. (And what a fuss it has been: philosophers have debated this question for over two millennia, and just about every major philosopher has had something to say about it.) Most philosophers suppose that the concept of free will is very closely connected to the concept of moral responsibility. Acting with free will, on such views, is just to satisfy the metaphysical requirement on being responsible for one's action.

Also "free will" is often associated with the phrase "free moral agency" although these are really separate topics.  "Free moral agency" is found mostly in theological discussions.

Tentmaker web site under Scholars Corner has two good articles on "free moral agency" by Preston Eby and AP Adams.

[Seth]

Is passively allowing mankind to do stupid things an act of God?

Absolutely.

"My point is that God can really give people free will for a while."

Yes, but in my opinion, He just allows them to be the creatures they are. 

He steps back and allows them to do exactly what he knows they would do since before they were born. What looks like stepping back, to me is the push and pull of his Sovereignty, working all things according to the council of his own will.

[eaglesway]

I think He ssteps back for the righteous to do righteously as well, and that is a part of the council of His will, that we learn to walk as sons, as did His Son, who learned righteousness through the things that He suffered

[Seth]

I think He ssteps back for the righteous to do righteously as well, and that is a part of the council of His will, that we learn to walk as sons, as did His Son, who learned righteousness through the things that He suffered

I agree. I think that righteousness can be learned through experiencing evil that way, and keeping patience. I just don't think His stepping back is necessary for us to learn anything. If I understand the idea, it's that we cannot truly learn anything unless we do so on our own, but just don't see that such a think is necessarily required. God can simply give us our growth from his own grace. God can simply mold us like clay to be what he wants. I don't see any prerequisite that we must do so on our own.

[WhiteWings]

"My point is that God can really give people free will for a while."

Yes, but in my opinion, He just allows them to be the creatures they are.

Isn't that the same thing?

[Seth]

Let's not forget the devil who deceives the whole world...

[eaglesway]

I think He ssteps back for the righteous to do righteously as well, and that is a part of the council of His will, that we learn to walk as sons, as did His Son, who learned righteousness through the things that He suffered

I agree. I think that righteousness can be learned through experiencing evil that way, and keeping patience. I just don't think His stepping back is necessary for us to learn anything. If I understand the idea, it's that we cannot truly learn anything unless we do so on our own, but just don't see that such a think is necessarily required. God can simply give us our growth from his own grace. God can simply mold us like clay to be what he wants. I don't see any prerequisite that we must do so on our own.

I dont think we are ever completely on our own. All of these things speak of matters of degree, imo. When I speak of God "stepping back", I am talking about Him allowing us to experience things tht conform us too the image of Christ, to the end that we would be completely free- and completely righteous in His love. IMO this is the destination of every being in the universe- set free from futility and totally fulfilled in the "glorious liberty of the sons of God"

14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;

17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;

19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

I don't think the process is about control. I think it is about freedom thru grace and love. Once we are perfected(rooted and grounded) in love, "filled up to all the fulness of God", there is no law, no need to be directed. We are comstrained by the love of God, which is total freedom.

"For freedom Christ has set you free"

FOR FREEDOM.

Yet, one could ask, is a drop of water in a river free? (His voice is like the rushing of many waters, as 10,000s of 10,000s praising God).

The answer is a paradox. A drop of water in a river is free to flow with the river. In that power and glory, the rushing of many waters, the drop of water is free, and at the same time it is "caught up" in the flow of the river (and wouldnt hav it any other way).

[Seth]

Is a drop of water free? I would say...no. A drop of water goes with the current and can do nothing else. But I do understand your point :icon_jokercolor: and I enjoyed that post 

[eaglesway]

A drop of water is free within the flow. We are not free until we "go with the flow" LOL. I am speaking of God's love of course.

[Seth]

A skydiver probably. He goes in one direction but can manipulate his right and left. I've tried to hold a conversation with a drop of water. They're not as smart as you might think. I'm in a goofy mood. Time for bed.  :laughing7:

[eaglesway]

I wonder, is it so strange an idea that we could "freely choose" to do the right thing? To love. To give. To follow Christ- I am not speaking of intitial salvation.

I am talking about CONVERSION.

Jesus said to Peter(who was already saved), "When you are converted, strengthen the brethren."

When we talk about being "conformed to the image of Christ", what are we being conformed to but the love He freely gave to the world and to His Father.

When we are converted(from operating primarily out of the flesh and the mind to operating primarily out of the spirit and the heart- we are free.

Here is a scripture to support my point. "The wind blows where it wills and you hear the sound of it but you dont know where it comes from or where it goes, so it is with everyone who is born of the spirit."

This is total freedom. it is why we are "born from above". It is the destination of the entire creation.

If I agree to do what God would have me do , I am free.

If I must be forced to do it or controled in the doing of it I am not.

Jesus did only what He saw the Father doing aand spoke only what He heard from the Father because He loved the Father and the Father loved Him. They were one.

"I pray that you may be one even as I and the Father are one(that your joy may be FULL). I am in the Father and the Father is in me and I am in you."

Joy unspeakable and full of glory is the result of oneness, union, harmony, communion and community. These things grow where the grace of God abounds. "And great grace was upon them all and the word of the Lord grew and multiplied and no one among them had any need."

For freedom Christ has set you free.

[Seth]

If we can freely choose to be converted then God has no real control over who his elect will be. He's in the dark about because he has to wait to see who freely chooses to finish the race.

[micah7:9]

In my mind/heart the Lord God is the cause for any and everything that has, is, or will happen in all things. He is the responsible party. And as far as I know He affirms the same.
Rev 22:13  I am the Alpha and the Omega--the Beginning and End--the First and the Last. :2c: :dsunny:

[Tony N]

We should never use the word "free" with the word "will."

Even God is not free to go against His will. He cannot hate in the truest sense of the word since "God is love."

The problem with the idea that a will is free is that it causes people to believe they are little deities running around mucking up God's plans. If you ever saw Time Bandits you will see these little dwarves  running around God's universe using time holes to muck up His universe. God is constantly chasing them around trying to catch them and stop them. At the end of the movie the young boy asks God (in a British accent of course) "God, why is there so much evil in the world?" And God replies (with a British accent of course): "Let's just say it has to do with free will."
All through the movie I noticed the same people playing different parts as it went through hundreds of years of time.

After I saw the movie I thought, this movie must have been created by someone who believed in free will and reincarnation. Sure enough George Harrison of the Beatles was one of the producers of the film.

But is the evil in the world due to free will?
If God is not in charge of His universe then He is not God in the truest sense of the word. Anyone who is dependent upon the will of another is not greater than that other.

When Adam sinned, did he have a will to do otherwise? No. He was made of flesh. The flesh is at enmity to God (Romans 8). Therefore Adam was not free to not be at enmity to God.
Adam was created soulish. The soulish man is not receiving that which is of God (1 Cor.2:14).

Was Pharaoh free to just let Israel walk out of Egypt? No. God hardened his heart so he would not free them so He could bring Egypt down and so God would be glorified.

No we aren't puppets. We are not robots. We are vessels formed by God and carried by God to be used as He sees fit.

[micah7:9]

We should never use the word "free" with the word "will."

Even God is not free to go against His will. He cannot hate in the truest sense of the word since "God is love."

The problem with the idea that a will is free is that it causes people to believe they are little deities running around mucking up God's plans. If you ever saw Time Bandits you will see these little dwarves  running around God's universe using time holes to muck up His universe. God is constantly chasing them around trying to catch them and stop them. At the end of the movie the young boy asks God (in a British accent of course) "God, why is there so much evil in the world?" And God replies (with a British accent of course): "Let's just say it has to do with free will."
All through the movie I noticed the same people playing different parts as it went through hundreds of years of time.

After I saw the movie I thought, this movie must have been created by someone who believed in free will and reincarnation. Sure enough George Harrison of the Beatles was one of the producers of the film.

But is the evil in the world due to free will?
If God is not in charge of His universe then He is not God in the truest sense of the word. Anyone who is dependent upon the will of another is not greater than that other.

When Adam sinned, did he have a will to do otherwise? No. He was made of flesh. The flesh is at enmity to God (Romans 8). Therefore Adam was not free to not be at enmity to God.
Adam was created soulish. The soulish man is not receiving that which is of God (1 Cor.2:14).

Was Pharaoh free to just let Israel walk out of Egypt? No. God hardened his heart so he would not free them so He could bring Egypt down and so God would be glorified.

No we aren't puppets. We are not robots. We are vessels formed by God and carried by God to be used as He sees fit.

:Peace2:

[Seth]

 :thumbsup:

Ecc 1:13
And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore (ra - evil) travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised (humbled) therewith.

[micah7:9]

:thumbsup:

Ecc 1:13
And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore (ra - evil) travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised (humbled) therewith.

Concordant 13  I applied `my heart to inquiring− and > exploring− by
wisdom on concerning all that is done under the heavens: It is an
experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to
humble them by it.
:Peace2:

[dajomaco]

Man's heart is full of freewill.
Out of the abundance of the heart, fruit is born.
We are free to will the spirit in our hearts to grow.
We freely choose the spirit  of Life or the spirit of death.

[micah7:9]

How is this done? Is there a verse of scripture?
"We are free to will the spirit in our hearts to grow.
We freely choose the spirit  of Life or the spirit of death."



Jer 17:9  Crooked is the heart above all things, And it is incurable--who doth know it?
Jer 17:10  I Jehovah do search the heart, try the reins, Even to give to each according to his way, According to the fruit of his doings.
Mar_7:21  for from within, out of the heart of men, the evil reasonings do come forth, adulteries, whoredoms, murders,
Mar 7:21  For from within, out of the heart of men, evil thoughts proceed, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries,
Mar 7:22  covetings, wickednesses, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, railing, pride, foolishness:
Mar 7:23  all these evil things proceed from within, and defile the man.

[gregoryfl]

I hope I am in the right thread on this. I read someone asking about how can there be growth without free will or something along those lines. The answer Paul gives, I believe is:

I plant, Apollos irrigates, but God makes it grow up."
(1Co 3:6)

Growth is not something we make happen, it happens to us even when we are not conscious of it, because it is of God.

[Seth]

I hope I am in the right thread on this. I read someone asking about how can there be growth without free will or something along those lines. The answer Paul gives, I believe is:

I plant, Apollos irrigates, but God makes it grow up."
(1Co 3:6)

Growth is not something we make happen, it happens to us even when we are not conscious of it, because it is of God.

:2thumbs:

[eaglesway]

Jesus did not say to Peter, "When you choose to be converted, strengthen the brethren".

He said, "When you are converted, strengthen the brethren".

Peter did not convert himself, nor did I indicate that he did. :o)

A process of trials and tribulations- failures leading to brokeness(a broken and a contrite heart) designed by God caused Peters growth into a "converted" man.

By "coonverted", Jesus was not talking about salvation. He was talking about brokeness. Peter was saved already. He had confessed Jesus as Lord and Jesus had said to him, "Man did not reveal this to you" and "You are all clean because of the words I have spoken to you".

My point was not that we choose to be converted. My point was that once we are converted(broken, yielded, submissive) we are free.

When you obey because you want to you are free. So many people are so afraid that perhaps God may give believers a little freedom. Why? Do we not trust Him? Do we not know Him, and His ways? Hav we not been discipled of Him? Perhaps not. Fear has torment.

For freedom Christ has set you free. The one whom the son sets free shall be FREE INDEED. - Not in theory, or in itsy bitsy fearful increments.

Our mother is the heavenly Jerusalem who is FREE.

We are growing into freedom because our hearts are coming into oneness/union/harmony with Him- not so we can glory or take credit.

Freely you have received freely give.

Can one not be free and humble and submissive to the will of the Father at the same time? Of course one can. Grace as provided the faith to do so and to God be all the glory, and Christ, who is the fountain through which this freedom flows.

God will free your will from the flesh and unite it to Himself by love- and there is a sentence where "free" and "will" can be used together for sure.

I am amazed that so many can only see absolute extremes when it vcomes to this topic. It is a mystery and a matter of degrees. A paradox hidden in the language of scriptures. A single coin whose two sides seem opposed to some but are actually united as one by the only union there is. Love.  That's the place where all mysteries are resolved.

We are called, chosen and elected- to be conformed to the image of Christ- WITHIN. Jesus was free, like the wind that blows where it wills....WHAT! SO IT IS WITH EVERYONE WHO IS BORN OF THE SPIRIT.(Jn 3:8)

How else can we bring the whole creation into the glorious liberty of the children of God.  :cloud9: