Who was reconciled?

[gregoryfl]

But all things are of God, who reconciled us to himself through Jesus Christ, and gave to us the ministry of reconciliation;
(2Co 5:18)

This appears to be saying that God reconciled us (past tense) to himself, which would seem to say we are reconciled to God. I think most would say the 'us' are believers, both Paul and the ones he was writing to.

Now...

namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses, and having committed to us the word of reconciliation.
(2Co 5:19)

Here he says it slightly different, by saying that God was reconciling the world to himself. My question to you is, who is the 'world' here that has been reconciled? Is this everyone, including unbelievers? Or is it just 'us', those who believe, not including those who do not?

I ask this question because I think it will help clear up (hopefully) a common misconception from two things that appear contradictory.

[micah7:9]

ALL to and for me is ALL.
CLV(i) 18 Yet all is of God, Who conciliates us to Himself through Christ, and is giving us the dispensation of the conciliation,
CLV(i) 19 how that God was in Christ, conciliating the world to Himself, not reckoning their offenses to them, and placing in us the word of the conciliation."

"Yet ALL is of God..." so for me the entire/whole arrangement world us, them, those, they, whoever the whole kit and kaboodle, in His time and His order. That just how I have been given to believe and stand. :dsunny:

[eaglesway]

I think there is an objective view and a subjective view. Since God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself- we can certainly say all have been reconciled in the  heart of God. However, we can stand alone on one or two verses. The same writer says there are adversaries who are not yet subjected(1 Cor 15), not yet gathered(Eph 1) and as minsters of reconciliation, as we are announcing the reconciliation and ushering/inviting others into it we are reconciling and gathering. Too argue the objective and subjective against one another as if the were opposing views somehow- to me seems an immature understanding of the word of God. I think both are clear, parallel and valid.

Any truth must satisfy all of the scriptures, and all of the perspectives and paradoxes they present.

"Sit thou at my right hand until I make all of your enemies a footstool for your feet." To say an ememy is reconciled, well- maybe we have a misfire of how we understand the language, but at present I believe the reconciliation is purchased, presented and secured for all in God- but not experienced until received. God has chosen the order in which men will receive it.

[jabcat]

Amen John.  (I'm positive you meant "CAN'T stand alone on one or two verses).

Ronen, IMO, the "other side" of the scripture you quoted is addressed here (although there are MANY that speak to separation from God, being lost, needing to believe on Him to be saved, etc.)  But specifically, a little further down in the same chapter,

2 Corintians 5:20  Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be you reconciled to God.  Then there is a plethora of scriptures that show how and what this means as listed in the other thread (Ephesians 2:8-10, Romans 10:13, I John 5:13, Acts 22:16, Acts 2:38,39, John 3:5, Romans 10:9,10 "IF confess and believe WILL be saved")

Christ's sacrifice brought down the barrier, made the Way.  Now God is calling, choosing, giving faith to believe on Him/receive Him as Savior as He wills according to His timing and plan.  The ecclesia now, the rest later.  Every knee will bow.

[joeteekay]

Another take on this is :

For reconciliation to take place, one party must be conciliated to a second party and the second party must be conciliated back to the first party. Then, and only then, is there reconciliation. God is now conciliated [Gk: katalla'sso = DOWN-CHANGE] to the world because of His Son's sacrifice, and the world will one day be reconciled [Gk: apokatalla'sso = FROM-DOWN-CHANGE] to God! Conciliation has to do with one side only in an estrangement, whereas reconciliation has to do with both sides of an estrangement. The Authorized Version does not make this vital distinction in the Greek Text!

From an article by L. Ray Smith

[Seth]

About the word apokatallaso: the part "apo" can also mean "separate" and "kata" can mean down but also AGAINST or OPPOSED. So the term could be (SEPERATENESS-OPPOSED-CHANGED) and katalasso could be (OPPOSED-CHANGED)

[Searching_For_The_Truth]

Some ET advocates believe that the reconciliation verses mean that Lord Jesus saved all souls from death and from there our free will determines whether we end up in Heaven or Hell for all eternity.

[Seth]

They have ignored Romans 5:10 which says that "if we were reconciled (or conciliated) by his death, how much more so having been reconciled, shall we be saved by his life." Salvation has to do with being saved from the carnal minded darkness inherent within man by the Holy Spirit (his Life) which comes by faith. Nothing to do with hell, which does not exist. Nobody was saved by reconciliation.

[eaglesway]

They also ignore Colossians 1:16-21 and Ephesians 1:9-11 and a half dozen other verses that clearly say that all will be reconciled and gathered into Christ

[gregoryfl]

Amen John.  (I'm positive you meant "CAN'T stand alone on one or two verses).

Ronen, IMO, the "other side" of the scripture you quoted is addressed here (although there are MANY that speak to separation from God, being lost, needing to believe on Him to be saved, etc.)  But specifically, a little further down in the same chapter,

2 Corintians 5:20  Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be you reconciled to God.  Then there is a plethora of scriptures that show how and what this means as listed in the other thread (Ephesians 2:8-10, Romans 10:13, I John 5:13, Acts 22:16, Acts 2:38,39, John 3:5, Romans 10:9,10 "IF confess and believe WILL be saved")

Christ's sacrifice brought down the barrier, made the Way.  Now God is calling, choosing, giving faith to believe on Him/receive Him as Savior as He wills according to His timing and plan.  The ecclesia now, the rest later.  Every knee will bow.

Am I to understand you to be saying that I do not believe that 'other side'? I have read several posts referring to the need to believe on Him to be saved, as one example. Is this being said because it is thought that I ignore that, or do not believe it?

[Tony N]

But all things are of God, who reconciled us to himself through Jesus Christ, and gave to us the ministry of reconciliation;
(2Co 5:18)

This appears to be saying that God reconciled us (past tense) to himself, which would seem to say we are reconciled to God. I think most would say the 'us' are believers, both Paul and the ones he was writing to.

Now...

namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses, and having committed to us the word of reconciliation.
(2Co 5:19)

Here he says it slightly different, by saying that God was reconciling the world to himself. My question to you is, who is the 'world' here that has been reconciled? Is this everyone, including unbelievers? Or is it just 'us', those who believe, not including those who do not?

I ask this question because I think it will help clear up (hopefully) a common misconception from two things that appear contradictory.

In the Greek, "reconcile" is apokatallasso. Reconcile is a two-sided peace where two parties come together in peace. In 2 Corinthians 5:19 the Greek word is just "katallasso" and should be "conciliate" which is just one sided where just God is at peace with the world. That is why He uses His ambassadors (that's us believers) to entreat the world to be conciliated (at peace) with God.

[micah7:9]

Did you ever think of the strangeness of the expression, "an Advocate with the Father" (I Jn. 2:1), taking the term advocate in the legal sense in which it is usually understood? If God is our Father, why do we need an advocate with him? Does a child have to engage the services of an attorney to represent him and plead his cause to his own father? If the child were estranged from his father and was ignorant of the father's true character and relation, he might suppose that he needed such a go-between; and this in fact is just what the Christian world do suppose; but this is not the actual state of the case.The Father is most kindly disposed toward us already; He is really and truly a Father; hence no one need plead with him for the children. But the children are estranged; they are ignorant of the Father's great love for them, hence they need a mediator, an advocate, i.e., as the word strictly means, a helper with the Father. The Father needs no such helper to reconcile him to the children for he was never unreconciled, but the children need it in order to make known the Father's good will to them, and to awaken their confidence in him and so to bring about harmony between them, i.e., to "set them at one again" (Acts 7:26); and this is the at-one-ment. The need of an atonement implies two parties at variance with one another whom it is desired to bring into harmony, union, oneness, and the means that effects this unity or reconciliation is called the atonement. Now in the case of God and man, the estrangement is all on man's side; he is alienated from God, not God from him; hence in order to bring about harmony between them, man alone need be reconciled.
The word rendered reconcile means to change completely; this is the strict meaning of the word. Now who is it that must be changed in order to bring about harmony between God and man? Not God surely, but man; he must be changed, or reconciled, and he alone; hence we can see how correct the Scriptures are in the use of this word, and how far out of the way are the creeds. to say that the atonement was to reconcile God to man, is to say that God must be changed, in order to bring about harmony between him and his creature; a sentiment that we might well pronounce blasphemous. The Bible way of putting it, however, is right, viz., that Christ's death was to reconcile man to God, i.e., to change man from an enemy to a son, and thus "to set him at one" with the Father. (A.P. Adams)

CLV(i) 11 for it is written: Living am I, the Lord is saying, For to Me shall bow every knee, And every tongue shall be acclaiming God!"

[marie glen]

But all things are of God, who reconciled us to himself through Jesus Christ, and gave to us the ministry of reconciliation;
(2Co 5:18)

This appears to be saying that God reconciled us (past tense) to himself, which would seem to say we are reconciled to God. I think most would say the 'us' are believers, both Paul and the ones he was writing to.

Now...

namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses, and having committed to us the word of reconciliation.
(2Co 5:19)

Here he says it slightly different, by saying that God was reconciling the world to himself. My question to you is, who is the 'world' here that has been reconciled? Is this everyone, including unbelievers? Or is it just 'us', those who believe, not including those who do not?

I ask this question because I think it will help clear up (hopefully) a common misconception from two things that appear contradictory.

...I often think of the verse Paul wrote .."while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.."

and the LORD God has chosen and designed, when each one will understand and receive it.. which reminds me of the parable Jesus told that the Kingdom of God is like leaven which a woman puts into three measures (loaves?) till aLL is leavened.. my mind always wonders, why three? (3 reapings? 2 flocks, and ?)

Some ET advocates believe that the reconciliation verses mean that Lord Jesus saved all souls from death and from there our free will determines whether we end up in Heaven or Hell for all eternity.

   oh wow, quite a rescue there! :LH: such logic! :dontknow: not! Geesh! :o

[Seth]

The word rendered reconcile means to change completely; this is the strict meaning of the word. Now who is it that must be changed in order to bring about harmony between God and man? Not God surely, but man; he must be changed, or reconciled, and he alone;

I think it's not necessarily a "who" but a "what." When the Bible says that God conciliated the world to himself, while we were yet enemies, there is definitely a change happening. And what I believe, based on the reconciliation scriptures and their context, is that it has to do with the relationship. God changed the relationship from this:

Isaiah 59:2
But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear.

to a peaceful relationship with man, so that God is no longer hidden away, but freely open to be found in the revelation and receiving of Christ.

[micah7:9]

 :dsunny:

[jabcat]

The word rendered reconcile means to change completely; this is the strict meaning of the word. Now who is it that must be changed in order to bring about harmony between God and man? Not God surely, but man; he must be changed, or reconciled, and he alone;

I think it's not necessarily a "who" but a "what." When the Bible says that God conciliated the world to himself, while we were yet enemies, there is definitely a change happening. And what I believe, based on the reconciliation scriptures and their context, is that it has to do with the relationship. God changed the relationship from this:

Isaiah 59:2
But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear.

to a peaceful relationship with man, so that God is no longer hidden away, but freely open to be found in the revelation and receiving of Christ.

:2thumbs:  very good

[joeteekay]

Yes Very good  :goodpost:

[ed]

Great Bible study.

When it all comes back to Christ Jesus, it is  :thumbsup:

:cloud9:

[Seth]

 :thumbsup:

If it isn't Christ-centric, it isn't the gospel.

[gregoryfl]

Did you happen to see my question Jab? Perhaps you missed it?

And I believe that both ways of how we are seeing this all play out are ultimately Christ centric, even though we differ on the details.

[Seth]

HI Ronen, no doubt. I have seen your writings enough to know your beliefs are Christ-centric. That wasn't directed at you.

[eaglesway]

I agree as well, that we are Christ centered people engaging in mid-rash of the scritpures, which of necessity involves some different interpretations and shades and degrees of perspective, or it would be boring and unnecessary  :laugh:

[jabcat]

Did you happen to see my question Jab? Perhaps you missed it?

And I believe that both ways of how we are seeing this all play out are ultimately Christ centric, even though we differ on the details.

You're right, I didn't see it.

My reply was my understanding of how I see and believe it.  On a personal level,  although you may have at some point and I missed it, I haven't seen you say "the other side of it", i.e., that a person needs to be drawn and have faith in Jesus or else one is still lost.  Rather I've seen an emphasis on what APPEARS to be inclusion, all are already saved. 

Whether or not your belief is "everybody's already saved through Christ", I do understand that as "Christ-centric".   I personally just believe there is still the individual drawing and giving faith to believe in/trust Christ as Savior that must occur - either now or later - not that it's all already completely fulfilled in time.  I believe that's why we're ambassadors of Christ, and to proclaim "call on the name of the Lord and you will be saved", "believe on Him and confess Him", in essence as Paul said, "be ye reconciled to God".  Thanks.

[micah7:9]

"Here he says it slightly different, by saying that God was reconciling the world to himself. My question to you is, who is the 'world' here that has been reconciled? Is this everyone, including unbelievers? Or is it just 'us', those who believe, not including those who do not?"

The world would be my answer. HE is reconciling, now we who consider ourselves believers, have a tendency to cause division between the "them and us" but God is reconciling the world, and that imo and I believe, is ALL the world. He did the creating and He will do and is reconciling His creation speaking of the humanity He created. :2c:

[gregoryfl]

Did you happen to see my question Jab? Perhaps you missed it?

And I believe that both ways of how we are seeing this all play out are ultimately Christ centric, even though we differ on the details.

You're right, I didn't see it.

My reply was my understanding of how I see and believe it.  On a personal level,  although you may have at some point and I missed it, I haven't seen you say "the other side of it", i.e., that a person needs to be drawn and have faith in Jesus or else one is still lost.  Rather I've seen an emphasis on what APPEARS to be inclusion, all are already saved. 

Whether or not your belief is "everybody's already saved through Christ", I do understand that as "Christ-centric".   I personally just believe there is still the individual drawing and giving faith to believe in/trust Christ as Savior that must occur - either now or later - not that it's all already completely fulfilled in time.  I believe that's why we're ambassadors of Christ, and to proclaim "call on the name of the Lord and you will be saved", "believe on Him and confess Him", in essence as Paul said, "be ye reconiled to God".  Thanks.

Ok, hehe then let me be clear that whoever does not believe in Yeshua is lost and needs to return home...to come to him. It is exactly to me what Eaglesway has shared, although I am using slightly different terms...he uses the terms 'objective' and 'subjective' which I would call 'God's view or reality' (the greater one) and 'man's view or reality'. Even though I am trying to bring out one facet of this, like showing one portion of a beautiful gem, I acknowledge the other parts of the gem as well. I am just showing one part that I believe most believers do not acknowledge, or are not aware of.

In this particular post I started, I believe the objective truth (God's view) that exists as true for every single human being is that God has conciliated man to himself in Messiah. Because that is true, it is the privilege of everyone who believes it now to implore those who do not believe, to 'be reconciled to God', (the subjective side or man's view side). Just because God has done it does not do away with the fact that, he sovereignly chose to bring people to faith through those sent to bear the message of the good news, as it is written:

For, "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in him whom they have not heard? How will they hear without a preacher? And how will they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the Good News of peace, who bring glad tidings of good things!"
(Rom 10:13-15)

God's reality (that the entire world is restored in relationship to God) and man's reality (seeing God through the mindset of separation and sin and in need of believing that God has dealt with those problems in Messiah) go hand in hand, in my opinion, describing both the end...and the means to that end.

The prodigal son who left his father's home and separate from him, was still his son (God's reality) even when he was living in sin, ending up in a pigpen as a son of the nations (man's reality). Although a son, he was lost (in a state of ruin where he did not belong) and he needed to return home, not to BECOME a son to his father, but to BE a son to his father, to live and experience life as it was always intended.

Likewise, we don't, by believing in Yeshua, BECOME reconciled to God, for he has already accomplished that in Christ without our permission, and before we here were even born. Rather, by belief and faith in what he HAS done, we fulfill in our minds the admonition to 'BE reconciled to God.' Until that happens, we exist as lost, without hope, not having life, nor the Son. We are like the man who has all the money in the world given to him in the bank, but because he stubbornly refuses to believe it, lives as one who is poor, destitute, having nothing, until such time as the one who put the money there convinces him that it is indeed true.

And, to use an example from scripture, God told the children of Israel that he gave them the land of promise. This was before they stepped one foot in that land. All they had to do was go in and take possession of what was already theirs. This tells us that it was complete from God's view, but they still needed to act on that promise for it to be complete in their experience, from their view. But, because of unbelief, God gave them over to their own choice and thinking, and that generation died in the wilderness. Their sin disciplined them. I believe that they, along with the rest of humanity, will be brought to experience what God has for us all in Messiah, but in the temporal setting that does not do away with human responsibility nor of the consequences of our actions. In other words, just because something is true, doesn't mean we just sit on our laurels and it just happens. God's view and man's view on this and every other aspect of life go hand in hand.

Ronen