Let's ask Jesus the question: "Will few be saved"?

[Peacetroll]

 Luke 13: 23-24

Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,

Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

There is the answer.

Paraphrased for those who don't comprehend old english:

The man said to Jesus---"are there few saved?"

Jesus said; "Many will seek to be saved, but will not".

Second scriptural witness to the TRUTH's statement:

Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

I find it acceptable to believe Christ over all others.


John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

When we consider Christ' message we understand the importance of not only paying Christ lip service, but DOING as he commanded, so that he might acknowledge & accept us,... when we come 'knocking' at the metaphoric door.

Luke 6:46
And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

[Craig]

Very simple. Not everywhere you read saved, is talking about end result salvation. There are many people who in the end result are saved, but are not saved the trials and consequences of this life. There are those who are not saved the humiliation of rejecting Jesus Christ, and suffer self-inflicted wounds because they walked not by faith. Salvation has been so generalized, that it has become staple to apply this fallacy that everywhere salvation, saved, healed, etc. is mentioned it is all talking about the same thing.

[SeekerSA]

Joh 12:47  And if any one hears My Words and does not believe, I do not judge him, for I do not come to judge the world, but to save the world.

Luk 9:56  For the Son of Man has not come to destroy men's lives, but to save. And they went to another village.

[CHB]

PeaceTroll,

You have to understand that when Jesus said these words there was no Saviour as yet. Another thing you have to consider is, what was Jesus talking about, who was he talking to and when and how long did this apply.

First, the kingdom of God that Jesus was talking about was the 1000 year reign, some think this is a shorter time. This time is not forever. Some of the Israelites will not be allowed in that kingdom and this is what you are referring to. That doesn't mean they won't be saved.

Second, Jesus message was only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matt. 15:24).

If Jesus message was only for Israel then you read in (Rom.11:26) that ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED.

I believe this kingdom was only promised to Israel, this is what they were looking and working for. Works were still the only way to salvation at this time. they were judged according to their works.

If you read in Isaiah you will find that there will come a time when all knees will bow and tongues will confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God.  


Also the word "EVERLASTING" means without beginning or end, so even the punishing and immortal life has a beginning. This way you know that everlasting does not apply to what you are saying

Putting all of this together you get the understanding that punishment is only temporary. At the end, all things will be in God and God will be in all things. It is a progress that started with Adam and will end with Christ. What Adam did, Christ undone. Don't you think He can do that?

CHB

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Did you ever consider the fact that He "legally" did not have to descend into the center of the earth to preach to those that perished before, when He did it? They did not die under the new covenant. But God so loved the world, He wanted everyone back in rightstanding with Him. He always repeats patterns, so even if any die not accepting Him, His arm is not so short in cannot reach, in His season. If He didn't do the same again, then He would be a respecter of persons. And since they without us cannot be made perfect or complete, which is His ultimate plan, He's not going to let a little thing like that stand in His way of being all in all. Blessings to you......

[Kratos]

The assumption (and we all know what happens when we assume) is that the two gates Jesus was speaking of lead to two different places or destinies. At the time that Jesus spoke these words, most major cities were protected by city walls with many gates by which to enter in. Jerusalem was such a city and we read about the "Eastern Gate" among others. Yet, though all gates were different, they all led to the same place.

When asked about whether few would be saved, Jesus could have just said "NO, all will be saved" or He could have said "Yes, only a few would be saved", but He chose to neither confirm or deny the number of those saved. Instead, He mentioned that there are two different gates or entrances into salvation. A few will take the narrow way and enter through faith in Jesus Christ while still in this life, but most will choose the wide gate and enter by way of destruction (the Lake of Fire).

Why do we automatically read into this verse that the two gates referred to by Jesus lead to two different places? Probably because the traditions of men teach a duality within humanity instead of mankind being seen as one race with one common destiny as the Word teaches. All die in the first Adam regardless of what they choose and all will be saved in Jesus Christ as the Last Adam regardless of what they choose. We do, however, choose which gate we will use to enter the City of God.

John

[Peacetroll]

You have to understand that when Jesus said these words there was no Saviour as yet

CHB.

CHB, there was a Saviour then and there,...it was Jesus Christ from the day he entered this world...

Luke 2

25And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.

26And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ .

27And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,

28Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,

29Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:

30For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,

31Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;

32A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

Christ was the Saviour from the time he entered the world as revealed by Simeon and the prophets.

Jesus was the Messiah from his birth.

Thus...Jesus Christ.

Matthew 11:2
Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ (or Saviour or Messiah), he sent two of his disciples,

Christ was the Messiah or Saviour from his conception in Bethlehem~!

Count on it!

The assumption (and we all know what happens when we assume) is that the two gates Jesus was speaking of lead to two different places or destinies.

Kratos

Jesus explained it well enough.  One leads to destruction.  The other to life.  Yes?

Matthew 7:13-15
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, (1)that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, (2)which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

I believe Jesus spelled it out very clearly.



Peace in Christ.

[CHB]

CHB, there was a Saviour then and there,...it was Jesus Christ from the day he entered this world...

Yes, Jesus was the Savior of the world, but he had not died for the world yet, therefore, Israelites were still under the law.

(Heb. 9:17) For a testament is of force AFTER men are dead: otherwise it is OF NO STRENGTH AT ALL while the testator liveth.

You didn't reply to the other things I said.

CHB 

[Peacetroll]

Mark 10:51And Jesus answered and said unto him, What wilt thou that I should do unto thee? The blind man said unto him, Lord, that I might receive my sight.

52And Jesus said unto him, Go thy way; thy faith hath made thee whole. And immediately he received his sight, and followed Jesus in the way.

IfJesus had no power as Messiah until after he died, how could he say this to anyone?
Or how would he say and do this?

Matthew 9:2And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.

3And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth.

4And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?

5For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?

6But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

7And he arose, and departed to his house.

----

So I ask, was Jesus the Christ (Messiah or Saviour) when he forgave this man's sins or not?

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: That was good, John.... :thumbsup:

[CHB]

Mark 10:51And Jesus answered and said unto him, What wilt thou that I should do unto thee? The blind man said unto him, Lord, that I might receive my sight.

52And Jesus said unto him, Go thy way; thy faith hath made thee whole. And immediately he received his sight, and followed Jesus in the way.

IfJesus had no power as Messiah until after he died, how could he say this to anyone?
Or how would he say and do this?

PeaceTroll, I never said Jesus didn't have any power until after he died. But Israel was under the law until after he died. Christ message was one of law not GRACE. There was only one way to obtain salvation before the death of Jesus, and that was through obedience to law.

Matthew 9:2And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.

3And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth.

4And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?

5For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?

6But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

7And he arose, and departed to his house.

----

So I ask, was Jesus the Christ (Messiah or Saviour) when he forgave this man's sins or not?

I should have worded things better when I said there was no Saviour as yet before Jesus death. Jesus hadn't died for the world at that time and sacrificing was still a norm for sins. It was after Jesus death when sacrificing was no longer needed.

Why did Jesus say "This is my blood of the new testament which is shed for many for the REMISSION OF SINS?

CHB

[SeekerSA]

If Jesus had no power as Messiah until after he died, how could he say this to anyone?

Joh 16:7  But I tell you the truth, it is expedient for you that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Comforter will not come to you. But if I depart, I will send Him to you.
Joh 16:8  And when that One comes, He will convict the world concerning sin, and concerning righteousness, and concerning judgment.
Joh 16:9  Concerning sin, because they do not believe on Me;
Joh 16:10  concerning righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more;
Joh 16:11  concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
Joh 16:12  I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
Joh 16:13  However, when He, the Spirit of Truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth. For He shall not speak of Himself, but whatever He hears, He shall speak. And He will announce to you things to come.

Joh 14:10  Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in Me? The Words that I speak to you I do not speak of Myself, but the Father who dwells in Me, He does the works.
Joh 14:11  Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the very works themselves.
Joh 14:12  Truly, truly, I say to you, He who believes on Me, the works that I do he shall do also, and greater works than these he shall do, because I go to My Father.
Joh 14:13  And whatever you may ask in My name, that I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

Even though Jesus could commission the disciples to do small works, the commission could not be universal until He had gone to the Father.

Jesus' judgement was not of the world, if you really read the synoptics, you will see that He had major issues withe the religious order of the day and hung out with those whom the religious despised.

Sadly you POV is scarred by traditional garbage proffered out over many years.

Once the RCC had invented hell, to make God seem like an ogre was easy.

Here is the challenge again:

Show us all how your theology takes care or makes provision for those BC and specifically not Jews and even today those that have not heard of Jesus.  You will need to mentally divorce yourself from the USA and come to Africa, India, China and the Middle east. ±65% of the world population.

Don't bother with Romans 1:18-20, that was directed to believers.

Once you can demonstrate how these folk are taken care of, you can drop your Calvinistic approach or reinforce it.

If you say they will be judged by their own morals an laws you have contradicted Jesus where He says:

Joh 14:6  Jesus said to him, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father but by Me.

Blessings

[Peacetroll]

CHB,

I believe we can agree to disagree.

There was never salvation via the Mosiac Laws because the god of this world is whom delivered it, and it was ordained by angels. 

Galatians 3:18-20

For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

No chance of fullfilling the mosaic laws for you or I partner....

Job 4:17-19 (King James Version)
Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?

Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly:

How much less in them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation is in the dust, which are crushed before the moth?

life  could not come by the mosaic laws, and it was never given to give succor, but pain and deliverance of all souls to the pit of blackness.

Isaiah 28:15
Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

There is no point to continue to lay out scripture I feel.  I'm but a man, fate is true so what will be will be concerning you and I and our eternal outcome, wether it be blackness forever or life in the Kingdom of God.  I would personally rather be dead forever then continue on this damn planet.



Seeker.   I've discussed the Millinium many times in previous posts, is it sure to say you have never seen one?

If  you have read anything I've put up concerning the Millinial period (which you do not believe in as I do), then you would not have asked me how BC and people who have never heard of Christ will come to him.

Do you not believe Satan will be bound for a thousand years?

Do you not believe Christ will rule with an Iron Rod; symbolizing his dominance and rule over the nations, forcing them to be just and merciful against their very will and nature?????????

Who are the wicked?  Who are the righteous?   Do these words hold various meanings depending on the context throughout scripture?

Is there a resurrection?  Was David a prophet, and if so how come he spoke so emphatically concerning the wicked and the righteouss? 

Will the tares be gathered?

Burned?

What is a tare?

Have you studied the goats and sheep metaphor of Christ in detail?

Is it the flesh or the soul (the life) that God is concerned with?

Is it flesh and blood or principalities of THIS WORLD that we battle with?

Is their any possibility that without Christ in us we are dead? 

Can you kill something that is already dead?

Did Christ not say, let the dead bury the dead?

Does it not seem logical to understand fundamentals before building a whole theory primarily on Paul (who spoke idea's and concepts hard to be understood for most)???????

I'm just asking you all to think.

[SeekerSA]

Eric, you pose a lot of questions in answer to a simple question.

Answer mine and I will answer yours.

I post scriptures that contradict your POV yet you ignore them, why?

To give a blanket answer, yes I have studied all that you asked but do not come away with the same POV as you do.

To be honest, all I see is that you are consistently inconsistent.

I suggest you read the two threads I have posted in the Bible Studies to get a better idea as to where I am coming from.

Your frustration is evident as you are moved by political uncertainties and I am sure you have not learned to enter into the rest of God.  You said:

I would personally rather be dead forever then continue on this damn planet.

You contend that UR is not true but much of what you post does not disprove UR in any way.

Let me give you my take on the Galatians scripture:

Gal 3:16  And to Abraham and to his Seed the promises were spoken. It does not say, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, "And to your Seed," which is Christ.
Gal 3:17  And I say this, A covenant having been ratified by God in Christ, the Law (coming into being four hundred and thirty years after) does not annul the promise, so as to abolish it.
Gal 3:18  For if the inheritance is of Law, it is no more of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by way of promise.
Gal 3:19  Why then the Law? It was added because of transgressions, until the Seed should come to those to whom it had been promised, being ordained through angels in the Mediator's hand.

Just an aside here, angels here in the Mediator's hand means those servants of God directed by God and not celestial angels.

a messenger; especially an "angel"; by implication a pastor: - angel, messenger.

Gal 3:20  But the Mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
Gal 3:21  Is the Law then against the promises of God? Let it not be said! For if a law had been given which could have given life, indeed righteousness would have been out of Law.
Gal 3:22  But the Scripture shut up all under sin, so that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

What was this promise, is it not the same as what Abraham received?

Gal 3:23  But before faith came, we were kept under Law, having been shut up to the faith about to be revealed.
Gal 3:24  So that the Law has become a trainer of us until Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25  But faith coming, we are no longer under a trainer.
Gal 3:26  For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

We who have had our eyes opened to the fact of our sonship are to take this knowledge and teach others yet the Father still needs to quicken it in them before they will believe.  John 6:44

Gal 3:27  For as many as were baptized into Christ, you put on Christ.
Gal 3:28  There cannot be Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is no male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29  And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise.

What I have been sharing today is that we are to recognise the Christ in us which in effect makes us corporately the "Messiah" just as we corporately are the Body of Christ and corporately share in His Spirit.  This is not our ticket to salvation, it is however our admission into the Kingdom here and now.  When we die, it continues in another realm.

Rather than accepting Jesus Christ as our Saviour by acknowledgement of Him we should rather be accepting His teachings, His lifestyle and looking forward to eternity based upon His resurrection and living out our sonship as He showed us.

Blessings

[Peacetroll]

Seeker.

We hold such basic fundamental differences there is no reason to re-hash with you (no offence).

I certainly believe in Angels (spirit beings in heaven that if given the liberty as well as direction can transition to this world for certain reason of the Lord), while you do not.

I also believe the wicked are from Satan and the righteous are from God.

I believe, we too, can agree to disagree.

I fail to see anyone who really loves Christ as also loving this world as you pose.

Job 14:1
Man that is born of a woman is of few days and full of trouble.

Matthew 10:16
Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

John 12:25
He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

Good day.

[SeekerSA]

I fail to see anyone who really loves Christ as also loving this world as you pose.

Eric it is simple.  Jesus hung out with the outcasts and the perceived "sinners of the day" not the religious.

If I cannot love the world, then the love of God is not in me.  Yes it is screwed up and yes satan does influence but just as many give credence to a godunnit they too give too much creedance to satandunnit.

Jesus was not opposed to the world, he was opposed to religion.  Many here still carry baggage of religion.  If Jesus came for the righteous only then Calvin's theories would be true, however we all know Jesus came for the brokenhearted, the sick, the widowed, the orphan et al.

If one continues to cling to the notion of being special as your eyes are opened to the salvation of God, then you have missed the mark.  His salvation is for ALL mankind, not just believers.

If God is unchangeable than we must assume that His salvation always existed.  Man screwed it up then and now with religion and false teachings.

Jesus said we shall die in our sins, He did not say we say pay for our sins.

If by Adam all men sin or pay the penalty for his disobedience then surely, if God is real then it is His responsibility to reconcile us to Him, not our responsibility.

We all fall short, we all still sin.  Thus only God is righteous and only through His righteousness are we reconciled to Him.  This is why Christendom has failed miserably.  It makes us responsible yet teaches us to be separate in contradiction to whom Jesus hung out with.

Blessings

[Peacetroll]

Jesus explained who he came for, but none listen.

Matthew 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Luke 12:32
Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

John 10:16
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I
must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

John 17:9
I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

So we can once again choose to believe Jesus or not.

All I can do is hope you will believe Jesus over all others.

John 6:53
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

You can't kill the dead.

[CHB]

CHB,

I believe we can agree to disagree.

There was never salvation via the Mosiac Laws because the god of this world is whom delivered it, and it was ordained by angels.
 
Galatians 3:18-20

For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

No chance of fullfilling the mosaic laws for you or I partner....

This is all true.

There is no point to continue to lay out scripture I feel.  I'm but a man, fate is true so what will be will be concerning you and I and our eternal outcome, wether it be blackness forever or life in the Kingdom of God.  I would personally rather be dead forever then continue on this damn planet.

I am confident that we will all have immortal life one day.

CHB

[SeekerSA]

Jesus explained who he came for, but none listen.

Matthew 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Luke 12:32
Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

John 10:16
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I
must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

John 17:9
I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

So we can once again choose to believe Jesus or not.

All I can do is hope you will believe Jesus over all others.

John 6:53
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

You can't kill the dead.

Nothing you quoted here disproves UR

Luk 12:1  In the meantime, when there had gathered together an innumerable crowd of people, so as to trample on one another, He began to say to His disciples first, Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.

Luk 12:31  But rather seek the kingdom of God, and all these things shall be added to you.
Luk 12:32  Do not fear, little flock, for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

At that time Jesus followers were few, in fact he was addressing his disciples and the crowd listened on.  This in no way implies that few shall be saved.

Joh 6:45  It is written in the Prophets, "And they shall all be taught of God." Therefore everyone who hears and learns from the Father comes to Me.
Joh 6:46  Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God, He has seen the Father.
Joh 6:47  Truly, truly, I say to you, He who believes on Me has everlasting life.
Joh 6:48  I am the Bread of life.
Joh 6:49  Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and died.
Joh 6:50  This is the Bread which comes down from Heaven, so that a man may eat of it and not die.
Joh 6:51  I am the Living Bread which came down from Heaven. If anyone eats of this Bread, he shall live forever. And truly the bread that I will give is My flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
Joh 6:52  Then the Jews argued with one another, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
Joh 6:53  Then Jesus says to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man, and drink His blood, you do not have life in yourselves.
Joh 6:54  Whoever partakes of My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:55  For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.
Joh 6:56  He who partakes of My flesh and drinks My blood dwells in Me, and I in him.
Joh 6:57  As the living Father has sent Me, and I live through the Father, so he who partakes of Me, even he shall live by Me.
Joh 6:58  This is the Bread which came down from Heaven, not as your fathers ate the manna, and died; he who partakes of this Bread shall live forever.

I suppose you take this to mean the Eucharist?  Jesus always spoke in a parabolic nature hence the many did not understand what He was saying, clear by these scriptures.

I am the bread of Life means our fulfilment in Him.  It does not literally mean we have to eat of His flesh and drink of His blood as the RCC have it with transubstitution.  There is no magic in communion, it is all symbolic.

Joh 17:9  I pray for them. I do not pray for the world, but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours.

Why stop here?

Joh 17:10  And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I am glorified in them.
Joh 17:11  And now I am in the world no longer, but these are in the world, and I come to You, Holy Father. Keep them in Your name, those whom You have given Me, so that they may be one as We are.
Joh 17:12  While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those that You have given Me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
Joh 17:13  And now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world that they might have My joy fulfilled in them.
Joh 17:14  I have given them Your Word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Joh 17:15  I do not pray for You to take them out of the world, but for You to keep them from the evil.
Joh 17:16  They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Joh 17:17  Sanctify them through Your truth. Your Word is truth.
Joh 17:18  As You have sent Me into the world, even so I have sent them into the world.
Joh 17:19  And I sanctify Myself for their sakes, so that they also might be sanctified in truth.
Joh 17:20  And I do not pray for these alone, but for those also who shall believe on Me through their word,

That said, the prayer was for protection of those followers that He would be leaving behind, cherry pick all you want, I will post the context for the lazy.

Joh 8:15  You judge after the flesh, I judge no one.

Joh 12:47  And if any one hears My Words and does not believe, I do not judge him, for I do not come to judge the world, but to save the world.

Blessings

[Peacetroll]

 

but for those also who shall believe on Me through their word,

Ah yes.

Of course.

Is believing him simply metaphoric too?  Or do we actually have to believe in him to be in him?  Your staunch in your bias towards UR.  I was once in your boat.  Easy boat to cruise in, seeing how you feel no need to 'run the race' as Paul spoke of seeing how wether we believe in Christ or not,... wether we curse Christ or not, wether we love our neighbor,... or not and wether we seek after him or not makes no difference to one's final outcome.

I believe they do, and they are fruits of the spirit.  Indicating from whom one's spirit is from; that of light or darkness.  But of course UR teaches that all spirits are from the Light, a doctrine that contradicts Jesus' own statements (in this I'm sure you will agree  you must Love your neighbor and not Hate him to be OF or From God).

Luke 12:51
Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

1 John 3:9-11

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil (Division??): whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

1 John 4:3
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

(Division?  spirit of Christ V.S. spirit of antchrist??)

1 John 4:6
We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth (Division???!!!), and the spirit of error.

John 7:43
So there was a division among the people because of him.

Matthew 25:33
And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. (DIVISION???)

Did he not tell us the end in the beginning???

Genesis 1:4
And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.


Two Spirits; Truth & Error. (Division???)

Two Trees

Two halves of Elohim: Light and Darkness.

Two Lords up to today: Christ and Satan.

As Smaller would say,...enjoy!

[Craig]

Now you are committing the hasty generalization fallacy along with the 'either/or' fallacy.

The Fallacy: If a Rainbow is not black, it must be white.
The Truth: No, it is multi-coloured.
The Fallacy:
If I am correct, you must be wrong.
The Truth: No, we both could be wrong.

There is no evidence or proof, nor is there any relevance to the original question or train of thought in this thread:

Two Spirits; Truth & Error. (Division???)

Two Trees

Two halves of Elohim: Light and Darkness.

Two Lords up to today: Christ and Satan.

[chuckt]

 

author=Peacetroll link=topic=1777.msg17190#msg17190 date=1199716145]
Luke 13: 23-24

Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,

Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

PRESENT TENSE

Mat 7:12  Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.


PRESENT TENSE

Mat 7:13  Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:


PRESENT TENSE

Mat 7:14  Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.


PRESENT TENSE

Mat 7:15  Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.


PRESENT TENSE

Mat 7:16  Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?


And so we see this has to do with finding life while  on earth. its not about future salvation.



i submit:

What does saved mean, anyhow? Maybe we should start following the rules of grammar and, every time we see the words saved or salvation, ask the question: "Saved from what?" and "Saved to what?".


my :2c:.....


inlove
chuckt

[Peacetroll]

 I want to answer a couple of questions,as you didn't seem to understand the answers before.
First,as concerns the testaments.The new testament had no effect unless the old was dead.The old covenant was between God,and Israel,period.
How did it die?
Hebrews 9:15
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

How did Christ do away with the letter of the law.

Matthew 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

How did He do it? He fullfilled ALL of the laws and statutes and proved the enemy a liar, and a murderer,as He said the enemy was.

Romans 10:5
For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law,that the man that doeth these things shall live by them.
  They crucified Jesus the just,who obeyed perfectly to the death.Proving that the enemy was not going to let ANYONE live,and was a liar.

The children of God throughout time have lived by faith,from Able, Abraham, everyone of them, until now.The children of God do not follow the stranger.They TRUST in the mercy of God.

Romans 1:16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

What is truth?Heard that before?

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 8:32
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.


John 8:36
If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Secondly,here is what Jesus saves you from.He saves you from dying,and your thoughts perishing.He saves you from having to come back in the millineum and being under the power of the second,permanent death.

Here is what death under the law is.

Psalm 146:4His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

5Happy is he that hath the God of Jacob for his help, whose hope is in the LORD his God:

Jesus said the same thing.

Luke 13:2-4 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain

   

2And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?

3I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

4Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?

As concerns the second death;

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The wheat will be gathered and stored,and the tares burned.

Revelation 14:13
And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

These are the wheat.


What is that second death?It is for the tares.

Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Revelation 20:9
And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

[CHB]

PeaceTroll,

The second death and the lake of fire are both spiritual. Notice it says that DEATH and HELL are cast into the lake of fire. This is the death of death. It's a spiritual thing.  :happygrin:

CHB

[Peacetroll]

Since we speak of spiritual things, what does Jesus mean in the following?

Matthew 8:22
But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

Was he speaking spiritual?  Concerning spiritual things?

Also, what concerns God?  the spirit or the body (flesh)??

Once Satan and the tares are delt with in finality, death will certainly have no place (thus the metaphor, hell and death are thrown in the lake of fire).

We only concern ourselves with the spiritual when we read scripture friend.  For it is fundamental to me that the flesh profits nothing, neither do the things of this world and the lusts thereof.  Even the mountains themselves will melt before God one day, therefore how can we not concern ourselves with the spiritual as opposed to the physical and earthy???

As concerning spirituality and life, without Christ (The Spirit of Light), in a flesh body, does it even have life (spiritually speaking or from God's viewpoint)???

Peacetroll.