Tried to tell others about UR, didn't quite work

[Eduard]

I once tried to tell others about UR on the Romanian Orthodox Christian forums. I was very enthusiastic and denounced eternal hell as a pagan lie, explaining the meaning of aion and the verses that say all will be saved. They immediately questioned my beliefs, citing well-known "arguments" such as "God is powerless when our free will is involved" or "If all will be saved in the end, why bother to be good?

Some asked me not so politely to leave and others told me I was in grave danger of eternal torment for preaching UR.

I only wish they'd understood...


Thoughts?

[sheila]

...re; if all will be saved in the end..then why bother to be good.   maybe love for God and your fellow man?

   also..we are not to think evilof one another.......

   also there are many good scriptures brought up on some of our previous 'Free Will topics that may

  be helpful,Eduard.

  mostly, I find it is a 'heart condition" or lack thereof...in it's dismissal[UR]  or resistence.

[Lazarus Short]

Eduard, do not be discouraged, as spiritual strongholds are not easily taken.  Even in Christ's ministry, He did not give all that He knew to the masses, but warned not to cast pearls before swine.  Begin by showing folks:

how God made Adam, and how the reverse works when we die
the Greek origin of the immortality of the soul
the difference between having a soul and being a soul
the utter absurdity of any part of us going to hell after we die
the absurdity of anyone being in hell after death and hell the grave have been cast into the Lake of Fire
the absurdity of God ever being All in all if anyone is still in hell
the pagan origins of hell.

Lay some foundation first, much as in the old days, siege ramps and siege engines were built before actual combat began.  Be as crafty as a serpent and harmless as a dove...


.  Point out the pagan roots, and teach those who respond.

[WhiteWings]

Eduard,

It happens to the Greatest.
Jesus was crucified for speaking the truth....

[Eduard]

So true WW. Blew my mind...

Lazarus Short, thank you! I hope that one day I'll be prepared, we have many resources on Tentmaker.

A heart condition, you're right Sheila, their hearts are hardened by fear and traditions.  :dunno2:

[Seth]

I've found that the best way is not to have any expectations. I would say, just share for the sake of sharing. It's really not up to us whether it works or not. It's just up to us to give a reason for our joy. They can take it or leave it.

[ed]

Those who argue the loudest are not the ones that are getting the message now.

The ones that are getting the message are the ones that are reading the discourse and not posting.  I normally thank the one who argues the loudest for the pitch.  You keep pitching and I keep hitting.  It is a win/win. 

UR is the best of the three sectarian answers to God's plan for the world in Jesus Christ. I am very comfortable saying so.  The message should get out, and the forums are a great way to get the ball rolling for those who are searching for a faith that shows God truly to be love.

.

[rosered]

Its the Lords work  Eduard 

I love the posts by our brothers and sisters !!  :HeartThrob:

and agree with them

I know  planting  the seeds and watering     is a good  servant  of the Lord  as God increases    the minds and hearts of His chosen out of the world to understand   His perfect will , to His glory  and honor and praise  !  :thumbsup:
best we can do is plant and water  as God gives His increase of  grace
  It took awhile  for me to come   the terms of the UR   understanding  , its the Lord  in His  mystery /ministry
GOD never fails      :dsunny:

[marie glen]

Most unknowingly believe UR means salvation without belief.. so they dismiss it out of hand.. one of the reasons they do, that is :)

[DanielB]

I am not an expert UR missionary but here are a few things I do when trying to share or convince others of it.

1. Try to be humble and speak humbly. For example rather than saying "This is fact!" you can say "This is what I believe."(even if it is fact) it can seem arrogant to some people at least if you say "This is fact." even if you are not a very arrogant person. In my experience just changing the way you say things can have a big effect on how willing people are to hear you out.(this is also a good rule of thumb for non spiritual debates)

2. "I was very enthusiastic and denounced eternal hell as a pagan lie" Hell is a lie and very possibly a pagan lie but try to be careful how you break this to people. Some christians will still be willing to hear you out but many are not going to be too eager to listen to you after you tell them that one of their major beliefs is a pagan lie. The word "pagan" is very derogatory to a lot of christians so just try to avoiding using the words "pagan" or "lie"(most people don't tend to eagerly accept their beliefs are based on lies) and just tell them what you believe and why you believe it.

3. Don't get discouraged! The way I see it if I can convince even one person of the wonderful news all the hours(even if it takes years) I have spent trying will be worth it.

Also you may want to ask about stuff and read the stuff in the apologetics part of the forum. I don't think anyone will get mad at you for posting here but that is probably the best place to ask unless you're just feeling discouraged and need some encouragement.

[eaglesway]

If people don't want to hear, they won't. But if they do, I often refer them to Gary Beauchemin's book Hope Beyond Hell, which is perhaps the best user friendly presentation of UR available.

http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/pdf/Hope_Beyond_Hell_Abridged.pdf  (short version, 48 pages)

http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/pdf/Hope_Beyond_Hell_Unabridged.pdf   (full book 256 pages)

[Eduard]

I've found that the best way is not to have any expectations. I would say, just share for the sake of sharing. It's really not up to us whether it works or not. It's just up to us to give a reason for our joy. They can take it or leave it.

:iagree:

DanielB, I also told them that what they call hell is for correction and not everlasting torture, and that God is love and that Christ is the Savior of all, but even then they wouldn't hear me.

[ed]

DanielB, I also told them that what they call hell is for correction and not everlasting torture, and that God is love and that Christ is the Savior of all, but even then they wouldn't hear me.

That is because they have not been corrected yet :winkgrin:

Somebody is reading the words that you are posting and finding the UR message in it to ring true with what the Spirit is doing in their life right now.

The pitcher will always be on the opposite side.  A Sound UR argument will have a positive effect.  It is the most rational of the three sectarian views.

Questions Without Answers: A Refutation and a Response (regarding Universal Salvation)
by A. C. Thomas, E. H. Lake, etal
http://www.tentmaker.org/contending.htm

Questions Without Answers
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/answers.html

[rosered]

I've found that the best way is not to have any expectations. I would say, just share for the sake of sharing. It's really not up to us whether it works or not. It's just up to us to give a reason for our joy. They can take it or leave it.

:iagree:

DanielB, I also told them that what they call hell is for correction and not everlasting torture, and that God is love and that Christ is the Savior of all, but even then they wouldn't hear me.

   Hello Eduard and all !  :gimmefive:

   The one  main thing I learned was to leave them with a question they cannot answer 
    you see , Jesus done this all the time to those whom wanted a answer  from Him !
  One thing I always ask them and this was hard for me to   answer
  Was   Matt 5 ,     
  How can the same   Heavenly Father  ask   us to   forgive and pray for and turn the other cheek   to our enemies without doing the same  forgiving  ? LOVE and grace of God in  effect  within our walls of salvation   works on others as well ...

  Are we not all  enemies  by nature against the Holy Spirit to begin with ?  Like Seth said , Romans 8     !!! No Condemnation in Christ
...6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,

7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God,

for it is not even able to do so,

8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

  This was  the main answer I found when looking   above  here ,  no flesh  pleases God, the very  carnal nature   every last one of  us is born with and   has to  battle with , God is fair in that !!    the days of our flesh are numbered   ,  and the need to be born again   [John 3 ]    and you CAN have a taste of this  here and now  ,  its Gods doing !!

None can  brag about  salvation  as if we are saving our selves !!! :doh:
 
I have found the more we strive   against the TRUTH  , once the Truth  has been given   , the harder it is to   do the right thing  , Just as Paul told us in    Romans 7  , its no longer him , but the sin  that dwells in his own flesh that wars against the Spirit and how thankful  he was to at least have the MIND OF CHRIST  [ a conscience awakening  obedience to the will of God ]

  and  without faith it is impossible to please God  , everyone born of the Spirit is  given a measure of faith/ Christs faith  to    exercise   a power  to overcome    the desires of fleshly fulfillment   with  ,
  the more you have  overcome  by trusting in Christ/He advocates on our  behalf  and battles  for us     ,  the more you are given  to continue   the battle   till our  earths[body] end , But than you are given a new  glorified body to  dwell in .


Who would NOT want that for every one ????  God wants this  also ''  that NONE should perish'' !


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son   that none should perish   but have eternal life ...

16"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.     
God will accomplish His purpose   completely , every knee will bow and tongue confess   the LORD JESUS CHRIST ...


2 Peter 3
...8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.

9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

[jasman]

Hi Eduard,

I find it to be balancing act in how I share this really good news with others.  Sometimes I'm quite bold, often quite subtle...maybe just referencing key verses in conversation about scripture.  I always try hard to be humble and non-confrontational.  I feel as though I am chipping away at people's blindness to the idea more and more each day.  I've been at it since 2001 now, and I still have a lot to learn.

I've come to really appreciate when a friend (or non-friend) slams me hard for what I believe and says, or shouts, similar things to what was said to you.  At first it tends to bother me, as I take it personally.  Then I always dive back deeper and deeper into scripture and searching out the depths of Jesus.  A little while later, I often see that I had started to get lax and lazy with my pursuit of knowing Him, and I needed a jump start, or shock therapy.  In the end I am thrilled to be taking on an ever increasing portion of the mind of Christ.

As you know many Christians think if we go around sharing what we believe in UR, we run the risk of encouraging people to just relax, ignore Christ and the cross and as a result go straight to hell when they die.  I contend, as kindly as possible, that they despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and long-suffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads to repentance (Romans 2:4). 

I have a good friend that holds the threat of hell very dear.  He hates what I believe.  He came to Jesus primarily because someone told him he was going to hell if he didn't.  I told him that it sounds like he doesn't know that the goodness of God leads to repentance.  He says that hell wasn't the only reason he became a believer, but just a part of it.  He is a very successful business man, self made, staunch conservative, faithful husband, loving Dad.  A good man and good friend (except for the hating what I believe thing).  He essentially believes that he is "in".  He is going to Heaven.  He doesn't want all the riff raff "in" too.  He's not too fond of them now...liberals and all.  He sure doesn't want to go spending eternity with them too.  He is enjoying the good American life now, and he plans on enjoying the good American heavenly life later.  UR kind of messes with his best laid plans.  That is a simplified look at it, but that really is the essence of it.  I won't be convincing him, but God just might if my friend isn't careful.

If you haven't read it yet, I highly recommend Thomas Talbott's book, "The Inescapable Love of God".  Evidently Talbott is in between editions right now, so you will have to wait until later this year if you want to order a 2nd edition copy (I promise it will be worth the wait though).  Here is Talbott's website: http://www.thomastalbott.com/index.php.  I think you might find his pages on Censors and Terror interesting in light of the opposition you have received.

For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive (I Cor. 15:22).  A = B

I recommend asking people what they think that verse means.  It's really a treat to hear people who tell everyone the bible makes perfect sense, and is without contradiction, as they make this (and numerous other verses) mean everything except what it clearly states.

Have fun.  Stay positive.  Dig ever deeper into Him.

God bless!

Jasman

[marie glen]

I've found that the best way is not to have any expectations. I would say, just share for the sake of sharing. It's really not up to us whether it works or not. It's just up to us to give a reason for our joy. They can take it or leave it.

:iagree:

DanielB, I also told them that what they call hell is for correction and not everlasting torture, and that God is love and that Christ is the Savior of all, but even then they wouldn't hear me.

..to me, the UR belief (doctrine) of the LOF sounds like "purgatory" so many would reject..
...studying on my own, I never knew this belief as held by UR, but think of the answer(s) as being in the long 2nd advent of Jesus.. and how there's really only one verse which one might interpret as saying one MUST repent before death or face the LOF, would be when Jesus told the pharisees unless they repent they would die in their sins..

..but to me, this has always only meant, they would rise in their sins (the 2nd resurrection) and since I believe Judgment Day (Grt White Throne) is represented by the Day of Atonement (surprise!?) which was a day of national deep repentance, wailing and humility.. then it is my belief the 2nd resurrection will repent during the Grt White Throne Judgment/review of all History.. To which I believe God is totally capable and to me seems more reasonable, softer and kinder ..tho the review of all history would not be an easy thing..

When I relate, or tell this to non-Christians, they always fully understand it, nod their heads and smile.. Seems to be 'good news'...
     :2c: :smile:

[eaglesway]

I don't kno what the "UR belief" on the LOF would be. To me it is standing in the unapproachable light/fire of God in His presence and in the presence of all His holy messegers(Hebrews 12 assembly) until every hidden thing is brought to light and every veil is consumed. Not sure if this is typical of UR or what the "typical UR belief on the LOF would be. I have heard so many differing views on it in this forum. My view is explained briefly at             www.Hell-is-a-myth.webs.com/thefireofgod.htm

[Searching_For_The_Truth]

I don't kno what the "UR belief" on the LOF would be. To me it is standing in the unapproachable light/fire of God in His presence and in the presence of all His holy messegers(Hebrews 12 assembly) until every hidden thing is brought to light and every veil is consumed. Not sure if this is typical of UR or what the "typical UR belief on the LOF would be. I have heard so many differing views on it in this forum. My view is explained briefly at             www.Hell-is-a-myth.webs.com/thefireofgod.htm

I thought the UR interpretation of the LOF is that it is meant to purify, not torture or destroy

[eaglesway]

Yes, that is the general view. The specifics differ. Some folks think it is all in this life. Some think it is in the hereafter. Some think everyone goes through it. Some think it is only for unbelievers, but all UR believers believe it is for purification, not for torture, and definitely not endless.

[rrich7]

It sounds so easy to us here because one way or another Dad opened our eyes & hearts to it. We have to remember many of our brothers & sisters are still very lost & subjected to blindness. Even in our revelation we are still in some level of blindness thanks to our fleshy nature.

Be patient with them, I know it's hard & the news that is so great to us shatters everything these people have known, been told, held onto. In any case there aren't too many people who like when their "truths" are challenged or shattered & even in the light of all the convincing arguments, logic & evidence, they are more comfortable in what they know.

Ah the human nature :) 

However I job is not to convince, just to plant the seed. You may feel you failed but you did wonderfully ! For those who read or will read, the seed is planted & when it is each person his/her time to come to knowledge of the truth God will water that seed. You were just a vessel of honor, you shared some great news! Keep at it & as Julie says don't forget love