Resurrection of Jesus

[eaglesway]

Back to the OP... :-)

Some think people who die, don't really die, but basically instantly continue living with God "on the other side".

What I'm wondering is this.
Jesus died and stayed dead for 3 days.
He went to heaven 40 days after resurrection.
If 'we' would do those things instantly, wouldn't that mean the student is doing better than the Master?
:dontknow:

Jesus ascended on the third day. "Do not touch me, I hav not yet ascended to the Father"....

Jn 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Beautiful verse with many theological implications. I just prefer the beauty of knowing that Jesus was going to His brethren....


You have come unto Mt Zion, and the heavenly Jerusalem, unto myriads of angels, unto the spirits of righteous men made perfect......

[WhiteWings]

Jesus ascended on the third day. "Do not touch me, I hav not yet ascended to the Father"....

Jn 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Beautiful verse with many theological implications.

Besides that the verse doesn't answer my question; the translation is disputed and imo conflicts Scripture.



It would mean He went to heaven between the time He met Mary and Thomas touched Him. Meaning His second coming was before Thomas touched Him. In that short time space He prepared the room for His bride and has returned for His bride at that time.

There is an alternative explanation.

....do not cling to me because I haven't ascended yet.

Jesus did not forbid Mary to touch Him. He told her not have the false hope He would stay with her because He hasn't returned to heaven yet at that time.

[eaglesway]

Jesus ascended on the third day. "Do not touch me, I hav not yet ascended to the Father"....

Jn 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Beautiful verse with many theological implications.

Besides that the verse doesn't answer my question; the translation is disputed and imo conflicts Scripture.



It would mean He went to heaven between the time He met Mary and Thomas touched Him. Meaning His second coming was before Thomas touched Him. In that short time space He prepared the room for His bride and has returned for His bride at that time.

There is an alternative explanation.

....do not cling to me because I haven't ascended yet.

Jesus did not forbid Mary to touch Him. He told her not have the false hope He would stay with her because He hasn't returned to heaven yet at that time.

Woulndt necessarily mean that at all. There are several reasonable possibilities.

[WhiteWings]

Jesus ascended on the third day. "Do not touch me, I hav not yet ascended to the Father"....

Jn 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Beautiful verse with many theological implications.

Besides that the verse doesn't answer my question; the translation is disputed and imo conflicts Scripture.



It would mean He went to heaven between the time He met Mary and Thomas touched Him. Meaning His second coming was before Thomas touched Him. In that short time space He prepared the room for His bride and has returned for His bride at that time.

There is an alternative explanation.

....do not cling to me because I haven't ascended yet.

Jesus did not forbid Mary to touch Him. He told her not have the false hope He would stay with her because He hasn't returned to heaven yet at that time.

Woulndt necessarily mean that at all. There are several reasonable possibilities.

For example...?

[eaglesway]

For instance,we both agree at this point(Jn 20:17) Jesus has not ascended yet.. In  Luke 24 you read another version of the same story, as recounted to the the stranger (Jesus) by the 2 men on the road to Emmaus. Afterwards Jesus is revealed to them, and then disappears. They immediately run to the Eleven and as they are telling the story Jesus appears to them, and speaks to them. It then saysclearly, He ascends into heaven before their eyes. This all happens within the first day aftr the resurrection. This scripture is not in question, and actually I don't see the translation issue in John 20:17, maybe you could give me some link to that info. I would like to see it.

[WhiteWings]

I'm not sure what info you mean? The word "cling"? If so, Lamsa uses that word and lexicons like Strong give it as one of the possible meanings.

For the rest of your reply: For me, it's not really about when exactly He ascended. It's the number of times He ascended.
Many people think He ascended to Heaven somewhere between His talk with Mary and when Thomas was allowed to touch Him. For me that simply means He went to heaven and returned from heaven to earth.

A quick wedding parallel. A groom leaves his bride and goes back to his father (Jesus---->God) and only returns when He finished the bridal suite/room (many mansions in God's house). That returning event is what many call the rapture*. Anyway, Jesus returned to earth and later when He ascended to heaven again a few weeks later He took His bride with Him. So 'rapture' took place nearly 2000 years ago.

Luke 22:18 For I tell you I will not drink again from the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes."

That was also part of the wedding customs. The groom drank a few cups of wine when becoming bethroted to His bride (Last supper). Then he said he would not have any wine until he returns for her. When the groom returned the final part of the wedding ceremony followed within a day. It was impossible to get 'fully married' without drinking the last cup of wine. Meaning God's kingdom was fully established shortly after Jesus talked to Mary


*=I'm not making claims about the validity of the rapture concept. I just use the word because everyone knows what's it about.


PS: I think this rather big subject goes way off-topic and might best be split into a new thread  :2c:

[eaglesway]

I still don't see how one gets around Luke 24 in terms of establishing the timing of Jesus' ascenscion as at most a day after the resurrection.

in other words, when you have a clear testimony in the scripture, John 20:17, I go to my Father........ and then Luke 24 which for me clarifies what was happening in John 20:17

24:1 On the first day of the week, very early in the morning, the women took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb. 2 They found the stone rolled away from the tomb, 3 but when they entered, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus.......

9 When they came back from the tomb, they told all these things to the Eleven and to all the others. 10 It was Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and the others with them who told this to the apostles. 11 But they did not believe the women, because their words seemed to them like nonsense. 12 Peter, however, got up and ran to the tomb. Bending over, he saw the strips of linen lying by themselves, and he went away, wondering to himself what had happened.

On the Road to Emmaus

13 Now that same day two of them were going to a village called Emmaus, about seven miles[a] from Jerusalem. 14 They were talking with each other about everything that had happened. 15 As they talked and discussed these things with each other, Jesus himself came up and walked along with them; 16 but they were kept from recognizing him......
20 The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him; 21 but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel. And what is more, it is the third day since all this took place. 22 In addition, some of our women amazed us. They went to the tomb early this morning 23 but didn't find his body.........
28 As they approached the village to which they were going, Jesus continued on as if he were going farther. 29 But they urged him strongly, "Stay with us, for it is nearly evening; the day is almost over." So he went in to stay with them........
33 They got up and returned at once to Jerusalem. There they found the Eleven and those with them, assembled together 34 and saying, "It is true! The Lord has risen and has appeared to Simon." 35 Then the two told what had happened on the way, and how Jesus was recognized by them when he broke the bread.


36 While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you."

37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 38 He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have."
40 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. 41 And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, "Do you have anything here to eat?" 42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43 and he took it and ate it in their presence.
44 He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."

45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46 He told them, "This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things. 49 I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high."50 When he had led them out to the vicinity of Bethany, he lifted up his hands and blessed them. 51 While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven. 52 Then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy. 53 And they stayed continually at the temple, praising God.

When there is a solid witness such as this narration it has to be weighed in the balance. It appears to me to be clear that Jesus ascended in the evening of the day of His resurrection.

[WhiteWings]

I still don't see how one gets around Luke 24 in terms of establishing the timing of Jesus' ascension as at most a day after the resurrection.

And don't see any proof of Jesus ascending in what you quoted. You quote verses stating Jesus met people and verses stating Jesus rose from the dead. I'm in total agreement with all those verses. So, I'm not getting around any timing because imo there isn't any timing relating to ascending to heaven at all in the verses you quoted.


v1-3 An empty tomb doesn't mean/prove Jesus went to heaven. In fact, He was standing near the tomb.

v9-12 Those verses are about unbelief and an empty tomb. I read nothing about going to heaven in them.

v13-35 Men talking about the third day all those things took place 3 days ago. Jesus was still alive 3 days ago. So it wasn't about Jesus ascending.


v36 Jesus standing among them is just a factoid. Even a miracle if you wish. But not a statement about the timing of ascending to heaven.


v37-44 I agree this verse is about a day after His resurrection. But still no mentioning about ascending. The most important part is Jesus is touched in this verse. The start of this discussion was about the translation of touch/cling


v51 This verse is *after* the touching verse (v39). So if Mary wasn't allowed to touch Him because He hasn't ascended to heaven yet, then why is it ok to be touched in verse 39 which is *also* before ascending in v51?



I agree the above looks like Jesus ascended about a day after He rose from the dead. But also take these verses into account.

John 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

That's a parallel verse of Luke 24:36. Johns peaks about 8 days



Acts 13:31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.

I don't know how much many is, likely more than 8 but certainly more than one day.


Acts 1:2-3, 9

Until the day in which he was taken up ... he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
...
And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.



EW put those verses in your balance too :-)
Did I point out contradictions? No, I don't think so. The 'contradictions' only appear to be there when assuming stuff. But I must admit assumptions can be very tempting at times.

:2c:

[joeteekay]

I tend to agree with WW.

Until the day in which he was taken up ... he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

...

He ascended to the Father shortly after His resurrection Why?

Dan 7:13  I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Dan 7:14  And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

That is why He spoke concerning things pertaining to the KoG during those 40 days.  :2c: :2c:

[sheila]

..it's all about the sign of Jonah being fulfilled..3 day's in the heart of the earth[fall to the earth

  and die]   now Nineveh was a very important city,requiring a visit of 3 days[have ye preached to the

dead?]   foury more days and Nineveh will be overturned[wasn't Jerusalem destroyed about 40 years

after?

   see vine/branch association that 'comforted' Jonah..worm appointed to chew/wither it...

  it's all the sign of Jonah being fulfilled.......every knee shall bow,every tongue confess.

[WhiteWings]

Yep.

Whale=grave
Ninveh=in and around Jerusalem.

Yes, Jerusalem was destroyed 40 years later.
More exactly 39.5 years after He was crucified and a few days less than 40 years after the high priest received a word from God that Jesus must die.

[rosered]

   Thanks   guys  !! Good post Shelia      :thumbsup: :girlheart:

[eaglesway]

Hi WW

Luke 24... "and He was taken up into heaven", looks like He ascended to me. The only explanation that takes into account all of the scriptures, yours and mine(His ;o), is that HE was ascending and descending for forty days or so.

I think Jesus gave them one heaven of a seminar in preparation for the out-pouring of Pentecost and the exponential grace revealed in the newly birthed gathering.

This particular topic is not really a critical issue, but, imo every solution must incorporate all the verses pertaining to the subject matter...... else we are cuttin it out of whole cloth, that's why we have so many "patches" in the faith :o)

[micah7:9]

This may be a simple kindergarten question, Act 1:11  Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Just where is that, heaven? :HeartThrob:

[eaglesway]

Some planet circling a star in the Orion galaxy perhaps? ;o)

[micah7:9]

Sarcasm, is accepted...because it perhaps is the best and only refrain. :2c: Your response is probably a better answer that what is taught., which is a place.

[WhiteWings]

Hi WW

Luke 24... "and He was taken up into heaven", looks like He ascended to me.

It not only looks that way, it's that way.

Imo the real is issue is that Luke didn't say "right away". No time frame was given.
I don't know the name of such a grammar construct in English so I'll start with an example.
"Last summer Eaglesway, who was born in New York, drove from the East to the West coast"

The blue part is added info, but not part of the timeline. You were born long before last summer.
Such language constructs are used several times in the NT.
The verse you quoted is quite similar. The info is correct. The timeline is correct too. But the implication that it happened immediately afterwards is not correct. There is a big time gap between the events. But where is the proof? Greek scholars have ways to detect such language constructs, but for our purpose that's not needed at all because other verses give direct info.
For example, Acts 1:2-3, 9 clearly states He ascended on the 40th day.
Then, imo, the only way Jesus could have ascended on (about) the 1st day is if He ascended to heaven at least 2 times. Besides, that would break the wedding pattern there is more direct proof. Compare:

Luke 24:36 While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you."

John 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you

I think those two verses describe exactly the same event at exactly the same time. If not Thomas would have to be convinced twice by touching Jesus (Luke 24:39, John 20:27)
If so, Jesus appeared in their midst on the 8th day as John clearly states. But John doesn't mention Jesus went to heaven immediately after that.

The only explanation that takes into account all of the scriptures, yours and mine(His ;o), is that HE was ascending and descending for forty days or so.

Not the only one. See above.
So you think Jesus ascended and descended at least 2 times in that 40 day time frame?
Besides the fact that I think it gives major problems, for what reason/purpose Jesus would do so?

This particular topic is not really a critical issue, but, imo every solution must incorporate all the verses pertaining to the subject matter...... else we are cuttin it out of whole cloth, that's why we have so many "patches" in the faith :o)

Perhaps not critical but still Biblical. There is no cutting of patches of faith going on because more verses are added into the mix. So it's more sewing patches together.
I think avoiding this sort of topics is creating patches. Christian Universalism is more that repeating "Jesus saves". At least I hope it is....

[eaglesway]

Well we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. IMO the narrative is specifically expressed and clear about the time frame in every aspect.