justification and one's past sins

[josh]

for starters
this thought
that the right kind of faith in god's mercies as made available thru the shed blood of jesus
is what enables a sou's justifcation by grace...

next perhaps here
what does justification thru jesus do to one's relationship with god the father..

important point on this matter
that i do not think jesus is god the father but is one with the god the father
as the first begotten of the dead that came in the fullness of time
and by what he suffered  fully enabled universal salvation for all human souls

now then in terms of one's new relationship with god the father thru jesus and the holy spirit...

what i hope to bring back to  my mind
is the aspect of how the free gift i think is what covers our sins
does not eliminate them
so that we can have a new form of righteousness by faith
that differs from that of abraham and moses

pretty sure that is what i had found sometime in the past
and perhaps a jumping off point for more on justification , free gift , and past sins :)

SOME AFTERTHOUGHTS ...
I THINK IT IS NOT THAT ARE SINS ARE DONE AWAY BUT IN BEING COVERED
BY THE FREE GIFT AND SHED BLOOD OF JESUS
SINNERS ARE ABLE TO COME BEFORE GOD THE FATHER.....
AND THAT THERE DOES REMAIN SOME SINS OF THE BELIEVER
WHICH OTHERWISE WITHOUT JESUS BELIEVERS WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO BE BEFORE THE FATHER

so then if on some level a believer's sins remain
how does the free gift free a believer .... more specifically
if not yet being fully free of all their sins

what does the paying of jesus of our debt as sinners
do for believers...

at this site
http://www.abideinchrist.com/keys/justification.html
i am reading where it says that it
The grace of God transferred all my sins to Christ. God's holy justice crucified Christ on account of those sins.

so tho even tho they are transferred to jesus
some say there remains in the believer ...indwelling sins...
can both be true?
is one right and one wrong?

now it says too something that i think is exactly correct scripturally
The total complete perfect righteousness of Christ is the righteousness which is imputed to the believing sinner.

ah but what is imputed righteousness by jesus
versus that imputed to abraham...

and how does that affect one's abillity to appear before god the father

the site above ..says that it
We who are unrighteous in ourselves are considered as righteous in Christ.

It is the formal announcement, or to legally declare righteous. It does not refer to a change of moral character, but to a change in legal status. A radical change of character invariably will accompany as a result of forgiveness and acceptance with God.

AH OKAY SO JUSTIFICATION BY WAY OF JESUS
IS TO INVARIABLY TO BE ACCOMPANIED IN A RADICAL CHANGE OF CHARACTER...

one thing as a believer that the bible is clear on i think about this...

now then reconciling scripture
where it says
1Jn 3:9  Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

what most say i think is along the lines of this translation..

(WNT)  No one who is a child of God is habitually guilty of sin. A God-given germ of life remains in him, and he cannot habitually sin--because he is a child of God.

kinda along the lines of that jimmy carter interview with playboy
that his occasional lustful desires he purges before they can enter his heart
and become a habitual kind of behaviour...

okay i think i almost have a q.e.d. here :)

[Seth]

There's alot of confusion about all this so you brought up ALOT of deep questions that one could write 12 books about, and people have. I remembered this scripture:

Hebrews 10
16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

I notice that there are TWO coinciding actions that God takes with regard to the new covenant:

1) I will put my laws into their hearts and in their minds I will write them
2) AND their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Much of Christian theology concentrates much on #2, but #1 cannot be discarded. What happens when a believer does not produce fruit in accordance with "I will put my laws into their hearts and in their minds." What happens when a believer focuses on his own belief but remains carnal?

If someone behaves as if God's laws are in their hearts (written by the Spirit), there is no more offering for sin, because not only is the person forgiven of past sins, but is no longer dwelling in sin. But when someone does not have a heart change, they crucify the son of God afresh because they make a further sacrifice necessary, which will not happen.

Hebrews 6 covers this. According to Hebrews 6, rather than crucifying Jesus again for the sins of those who persist in it, he reserves them for a judgment of allowing them to be destroyed by their own sin, to bring them to their knees.


Hebrews 6
7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

So, if a person walks according to the Spirit, they will produce useful vegetation. But if a person does NOT walk according to the Spirit, he will yield thorns and thistles, useless. The result is spiritual destruction, represented by the fire. This is why there is such an important parallel to, "I will write my laws on their hearts" and "their sins I will remember no more."

Here's what happens with "past sins":

Hebrews 9:15
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

2 Peter 1
9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. 10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble;

Romans 3
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Past sins are wiped clean, blotted out, and this I believe for the benefit of the believer, to keep them from dwelling in the past and focus on the future.

What about sins going forward?

1 John 1:9
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

What Christ accomplished on the cross is a means to create a new slate, but it does not result in perfection, because if we say we have no sin we lie. But if we do sin, and we confess, he will do two things:

1) Forgive us our sins
2) AND cleanse us of unrighteousness

That's why it says "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." That means, whoever is born of God does not ABIDE in it continually, does not return to his vomit and become worse than he was before. Edit: Lack of Humility will cause the continued repentance, and when sins are forgiven, they are blotted out forever.

That's my understanding.

[josh]

 first some added thoughts on where i quoted scripture
(WNT)  No one who is a child of God is habitually guilty of sin. A God-given germ of life remains in him, and he cannot habitually sin--because he is a child of God.

that i think might tie into some things in seth's response

if now when a believer sins ..what determines when that sin becomes habitual
and is this where ***
Heb 6:4  For it is ***impossible[TO RENEW AGAIN UNTO REPENTANCE] for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5  And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6  If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
IS THERE ANOTHER WAY THAT THEY CAN BE RESTORED OTHER THAN REPENTANCE?
i suspect there is

ANYWAYS NOT AS TO SOME OF THE FIRST RESPONSE TO THIS TOPIC BY SETH

i liked the scripture you gave of
Hebrews 10
16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them

when the laws might be put in the heart is when one receives the renewed heart
as a baby believer...

when they become written in the mind is when the believer moves from milk to solid food and the renewed mind

there tho might be one more step

these 3 steps i have come to think of the 3 harvest old testament festivals..
the barley harvest in the spring as the renewed heart
the wheat harvest later as the renewed mind
then the third as sukkot ..the grape harvest as when
not only can ond properly divide  the world but apply it consistently in what one does...
this is the level of the perfected saint
which i think need not wait to happen till one has passed to the other side...

now my difference with tentmaker take on universal salvation
is that it requires reincarnation for most to reach this perfection
as the testing has to happen while incarnated in the flesh...which is physical material..
now in terms of the glorified soul body it is as i understand it physical but not physical material as there is said to be a difference...

anyways back to hebrews 10
this seems to be an aspect of what is said earlier in chaper 6 i think
Heb 6:4  For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5  And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6  If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

BUT IT DOES SEEM TO BE STRANGE AFTER REACHING PERFECTION
ONE COULD FALL AWAY.... BUT MAYBE WITH MUCH POWER COMES MUCH TEMPTATION
..STILL I WONDER IF WHAT IS SAID IN CHAPTER 6 MIGHT APPLY TO
WHAT I THINK OF AS STAGE 2 ..THE RENEWED MIND BUT NOT YET PERFECTED STATE
BUT WHERE IT SAYS "tasted the good word of god" seems to me to suggest
that they have not yet fully applied the word in all their life but are able to rightly divide the word...AND THEN FALL AWAY....

OH WELL I HAVENT YET FOUND WHERE I FEEL I HAVE SOLIDIFIED THE UNDERSTANDING I WOULD HAVE ON SUCH MATTERS...SIGH I MUST NOT BE READY FOR SOLID FOOD...
WAAAAH :(

[donken]

Hello My Friends.    Reincarnation is a word that needs to be clarified by each person using it as there can be a variety of meanings depending on what one believes about the resurrection.   We know that Jesus was "not reincarnated", but he was returned to life in the same body.   So, if Jesus DIED, then we are talking about the body.  So, like the example of Lazarus, Lazarus was brought back to life as the body he did have in the world, even after "corruption" of the flesh had set in.  That is necessary for us to help us understand something today.  Lazarus died, and he died again.  So, when the scripture says that it is given unto man once to die, and after that the judgment, we can now accept {if we will} that the physical death of the body is not the death that has judgment given AFTER the body physically dies.   The death that we need to have is the death of the old man, or of the RULE of worldliness over US, in us. 

The lust of the flesh, the lust of the eye, and the pride of what we can do simply because we are alive, etc.   The pride of life is thinking it is US that is something when we do something considered wonderful in athletics or entertainment etc,, but we owe our ability to do absolutely anything at all TO LIFE, the spirit of LIFE in our body.

The spiritual death of the old man while we are still in the body is the death that is GIVEN to us so we may have judgment or the wisdom of God in us as our own wisdom.  But to have that wisdom, we also need to be one with God, the SON, and I do mean **THE** Son as God only every has one son, no matter how many there are, they are all going to be Jesus the Christ in the world.

The physically dead will also be "resurrected" both physically and spiritually and have to be perfected just like Jesus was.   We are told we are to pick up OUR OWN cross and follow Him, we are not told he did it for us in Israel and we do not have to do it.  Jesus said that if anyone hears his words and does not do them they are building "their" house on the sand... ie they will die physically or .. be corrected if they are IN THE DAY of the Lord, which I share as being this time  now in the creation.  That is when there is no more repentance for sin, the sin must be and will be "ended" entirely.

Make the inside clean first.  That is when we put on incorruption, morally incorruptible, while still in a physical body in the world.  Then we walk it out and live here and begin to put all "outer" things under the feet {way} of Jesus Christ  and that is the perfecting or completing of each individual SON.

The judgment is if we sin willingly and in knowledge on purpose we will be corrected within by the VOICE of the Lord God.  I will call it a strong strong conscience as an attempt to help us understand what it will be like.  If we do not hear that VOICE and limit our doing of "evil" on purpose after a bit, we will then begin to become DARK inside.  AN example of where we are going, we are stepping out of the light into the dark, getting off the path.  Jonah's sign.

The enmity in us and the mind set of that enmity is the "man of sin" in us all, the immature man, natural ADAM, who is a woman spiritually speaking, who IS deceived about what God and Jesus are like and yet strongly resists the truth, until he perishes.  WE are the temple of GOD that the man of sin sits in and causes us to believe that some or many of the things that are only of the world are of God's Spirit\nature\will.

Whether we live of die {physically} we all shall\must appear at the judgment seat of Christ, scripture says.  Well, at that judgment seat and it's operation spiritually within us Jesus Christ appears to our understanding as we become who he is Spiritually.  We in him, He in us, and we\He in the father and the father in us all.  Eternal life is the father of all living, and the body is the son that the father is in and who we all are to be one with, over time.  This judgment, the entrance or immersion into {baptism} the wisdom and righteousness of God to be in us, is right at the door.  It begins and always only is accomplished at the BODY OF CHRIST,  anointed.  All will be anointed in their time.  First the present church, especially those who are more understanding {seeing} than those who are sincere, young, and blind to many deeper truths of understanding at the moment.  There is no escape because without this judgment in us and becoming our own judgment with agreement by us with God about these things, there is no completed salvation from the ways of death in us or on us.

God bless, donken.

[josh]

SO WHERE MY OPENING POST SAID
"SOME AFTERTHOUGHTS ...
I THINK IT IS NOT THAT ARE SINS ARE DONE AWAY BUT IN BEING COVERED
BY THE FREE GIFT AND SHED BLOOD OF JESUS
SINNERS ARE ABLE TO COME BEFORE GOD THE FATHER.....
AND THAT THERE DOES REMAIN SOME SINS OF THE BELIEVER
WHICH OTHERWISE WITHOUT JESUS BELIEVERS WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO BE BEFORE THE FATHER

so then if on some level a believer's sins remain
how does the free gift free a believer .... more specifically
if not yet being fully free of all their sins

what does the paying of jesus of our debt as sinners
do for believers..."

NOW SEEING IF THE EXPLANATION OF LARKIN HELPS  OR HINDERS HERE...
SOME AFTERTHOUGHTS ...WITH MY COMMENTS IN CAPS
file:///C:/Users/Ellen/Downloads/larkins%20on%205%20judgments%20of%20bible.htm
[[[ " As we have already seen his judgment as a "Sinner" is Past. Let us look at his judgment

2. As a "Son."

As soon as the sinner accepts Christ as his personal Saviour that settles the "Sin" question for him. For if our iniquities are laid on Him (Jesus),<I THINK THE LANGUAGE LARKEN USES MIGHT BE SCRIPTURAL ..LAID ON JESUS..WHICH SEEMS TO DIFFER THAT OUR SINS ARE COVERED BOTH PERHAPS IN DIFFERENT WAYS ARE VALID TO SAY WHAT JESUS DOES FOR THE BELIEVERS  then they are not on Us. Isa. 53:5, Isa. 53:6. But the "Sin" question, and the "Sins" question are two different things. Christ died on the Cross to atone for "sin, " to pay the penalty of Adam's disobedience in the Garden of Eden. "Sin" is that tendency in mankind to do wrong which we call "Natural Depravity." We do not get rid of this "tendency" by the "New Birth, " but we get a "counteracting force" called the "New Nature." We become a "dual personality, " <WHAT LARKIN SAYS ABOUT A DUAL PERSONALITY I THINK WORKS WELL TO DESCRIBE THE PROBLEM OF REMAININING INDWELLING SIN AS THAT GENTILE ASPECT OF BOTH THE CHURCH AND THE BELIEVER DURING GENTILE TIMES..AND IT MIGHT BEAR REPEATING THAT A GENTILE REMAINING SELF DECEPTION COULD BE THAT REINCARNATION A LA CACYCE CONCEPTS IS NOT PART OF HOW ALL SOULS WILL BE REDEEMED BY THE SHED BLOOD OF JESUS composed of the "Old" and "New Natures, " and which shall predominate depends on which we feed and which we starve. This explains the "warfare" that Paul describes as his experience, after his conversion, in Rom. 7:1-3. This warfare will continue until the "Old" nature is eradicated at death.

"Sins" are the outward acts of wrong-doing that we commit as the result of our tendency to sin. These sins must be put away daily by "confession."]]]

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: My  :2c:  There is NO salvation apart from the Lord Jesus Christ. And the soul that did not overcome all things through Christ, CANNOT go into another body, it is unclean. The soul stays in bondage to whatever it did not overcome while still in a body, subject to the Lord's appearing to them.

These people who think they have had "past life memories", have a familiar spirit that transferred to them from the last person IT inhabited. It serves the familiar spirit's master well, for them to think that they can not come into union with His Spirit while in the body, because they will just get "another chance" once they die, to "get better". Whether in the body or out of the body, the soul has NO CHANCE, apart from the Lord of all.

The spirit returns to the One who sent it, the soul stays trapped, a "divorce" of the two, is what happens from death. Via the LORD'S timing and intervention (times and seasons/winter is symbolic of death, belong unto the Lord), the soul comes into the union with the spirit of God it missed coming into full union with in life = the first resurrection. Blessings...

[donken]

Hello Cardinal.  I would offer that man has only one spirit, the spirit of man, but it does have differences of operation in different people because of genetics or personal experiences that cause certain ways of thinking about things in the natural mind, etc.

Each person is like a cell on the body of Adam.  The whole of mankind is exactly like one physical body, spiritually understood.    We have cells on our body.  I will used small numbers and round figures for expediency.   As a baby I may have 1 billion cells on my body.  As a ten year old I may have 5 billion, and as an adult I may have 10 billion.  Just like human population increases.

Each cell on my body lives, moves and functions, and has it's existence by the one life in my body.  All cells live, move, and have their being by the life {ghost} in me, in my body.   They also all reproduce more of their own kind, whatever their purpose is, and then they eventually die themselves and fall off my body to the ground and through a natural worldly process they degrade and are eaten and defecated, eaten and defecated by smaller and smaller organisms and some chemical breakdown processes, all natural or worldy methods, back to dust again.    This is the model of humanity that people are born, grow up, reproduce, and die and go to the dust of the worldly grave or cremation, etc.

All the organs in my body have a purpose and every purpose, when working properly is to keep my body alive and in good health.  When some of these organs through the cells in them degenerate and do not work according to what my desire and will would be if I knew they were not working, I begin to die.

The same with us when we as individual humans do not work\live according to God's desire for us to be in Jesus Christ, and we die by the natural bondage we all have to time and space restrictions.  We age, break down, and die.   We eventually go back to dust in most cases.  There is some human intervention as mummification etc., but I think you see the picture.  See how one body works, and we see all of mankind all alive by the very same one life in the world, and we pass that life on to other "cells\babies" after our own kind and we live and function for a while and die.  We are all bone of each others bone and flesh or each others flesh etc.  When the whole of humanity {all or nothing} does not function according to God's final perfecting purpose yet, we all still die.

All the cells in my body will always be born, live, and then die UNTIL I have eternal life in my body.   What God is creating here is "the body", not the "soul"..  All are to be ONE SPIRIT, ONE MIND, and ONE BODY {but many cells and many different operations, all for the same purpose, continuation of life}.

ONE SPIRIT means no increase because the Spirit is already in existence as eternal life.  So no matter how many people there will be added to the Kingdom in maturity that is fore ordained of God in due time, the SPIRIT is always the same.  ONE.  GOD.

That is why man is called ADAM and not ADAMS.    It is all or nothing, no salvation without all entering into a process that will be completed and no one will die any more but at that time Adam will still have children but they will not die before maturing Spiritually into the exact example of Jesus Christ in the creation in their flesh and blood body.    This is the "increase" of the Kingdom in which there will be no end.

Isa_9:7  Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Isa 65:20  There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
Isa 65:21  And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
Isa 65:22  They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
Isa 65:23  They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.

It is the zeal of THE HOUSE {flesh body} that EATS JESUS UP.  That is where the "ignorance and error" dwells until maturity.

Psa_69:9  For the zeal of thine house hath eaten me up; and the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me.
Joh_2:17  And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.

While the house {body of Christ many membered} is being build {created} Christ is slain by what the "living immature house" does during building time.

Moses was faithful IN the house, but Christ was and will be in us, OVER the house, not OF the house but OF the father.

This is how I have been brought along to understand.  This is Adam to Adam in maturity as the body that God is in, in the creation, to put THE REST of creation into LIVING ORDER.

God bless, donken

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: @ donken......that may be what you've been given to see, but what I wrote is what I was given to EXPERIENCE. My  :2c:  Blessings....

[sheila]

Romans 5;118,19.............the work God did through His son justifies all men for salvation.

   if there is but one righteous man in the city..then all men be saved.   God's judgement is

  superior to any men's doctrines of judgement. Men like to add[ers] poison with their own

  understanding.hindering other's from entering in..through their doctrines of exclusion[serpent

   doctrines of condemnation to those whom have been justified .].

     

 

[donken]

Hi.   By our faith be it done unto us.   Our own ways upon us.

Experience does not always tell us what the meaning of that experience means TO GOD.

Also, it is an experienced lifestyle over time that is the true revelation of Christ because it brings about a change of ... doing unto us what we do unto others.
Having differences among Christians only shows God is not really ruling "yet".

Bless, donken