Spiritual Child Abuse??? No

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: @ donken.....I definitely agree this is the THE DAY.  :iagree:

[donken]

Hello Cardinal.   Yes, I understand your response.  So, why does God not do the same thing to everyone that he does to Paul.  He did not HARM paul to do it.  ALso Paul was already a believer in Messiah, just not who and what the Messiah was really going to be like.  Paul was "chosen.  He did stop Paul from killing JEWISH believers in Christ Jesus, but... he did it by making PAUL do good, not by doing evil and hurting Paul.  Paul TURNED AROUND and obeyed Jesus.  And yes, God "could" do this to all.   Some day he will.  That day is approaching.  But the rule of thumb, if my people {who already believe} will humble THEMSELVES and do His will, HE WILL bring the nations into His order.   

God ended Paul's hurtful ways to Jewish Christians by having Paul BECOME GOOD, not by hurting Paul.  ALso, Paul did not "see" right away.

When we disobey Christ's witness, the god we are following is the carnal Adam and if we continue to do so as a Christian nation we will eventually be prey to the ways of the nations, a god or power we are following in our own lives.   This is one of the examples Israel is for us today.

Rom_11:25  For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

We are to not be blind now.    Also,  1Co 10:7  Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
1Co 10:8  Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
1Co 10:9  Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
1Co 10:10  Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
1Co 10:11  Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and **they are written** for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

2Ch 7:14  If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.
Isa 10:5  O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.
Isa 10:6  I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.
Isa 10:7  Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few.

Isa 10:20  And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, ***shall no more again stay upon him that smote them;*** but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, **n truth**.

To stay upon them that smote them, the Gentile nations who are carnally and worldly motivated and acting, is to believe that God is like man in the natural is.

In effect, if they are going to stay upon the Lord IN TRUTH in that day, then they were NOT IN THE TRUTH with all that went before THAT DAY of the LORD,

So, how are they\we gong to stay upon the Lord in truth.  IT wil be by the pouring out of HIS SPIRIT.  as....  Isa 10:23  For the Lord GOD of hosts shall make a consumption, even determined, in the midst of all the land.
Isa 10:24  Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD of hosts, O my people that dwellest in Zion, be not afraid of the Assyrian: he shall smite thee with a rod, and shall lift up his staff against thee, after the manner of Egypt.

and Isa 10:25  For yet a very little while, and the indignation shall cease, and mine anger in their destruction.   {So, is it that the anger of the Lord is their carnal ways and lusts of the flesh that does the evil to everyone... I say it is}  The carnal wrath of man exists only because God is not finished making man yet.

Here again is how the Assyrian or carnal dominion over us is ended...  Isa 10:26  And the LORD of hosts shall stir up a scourge for him according to the slaughter of Midian at the rock of Oreb: and as his rod was upon the sea, so shall he lift it up after the manner of Egypt.
Isa 10:27  And it shall come to pass in that day, that his burden shall be taken away from off thy shoulder, and his yoke from off thy neck, ***and the yoke shall be destroyed **** because of the anointing. ***

Because of the anointing, the pouring out of God's Spirit by God upon ALL FLESH, after we ourselves will no longer stay and believe in the methods of the ASSYRIAN, or natural Adam and his carnal lusts.  The carnal lusts are the source of the doctrines in Christianity that come from the "man of sin" in us, the temple of the Lord.  The natural worldly mind and nature that many think is all of God and is also a witness of what God is like.  THey have been planted in us by the "enemy", the enmity toward God that is in our flesh.

Rom_8:7  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Eph_2:15  Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph_2:16  And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Jas_4:4  Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

I hope this helps.  As you wrote...   <<<18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness....26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections...>>>

Yes, what the wrath is, is revealed to us by God from heaven, but the wrath is not in heaven, it is here in the earth as the wrath of man that does not do the righteousness of God.  That "wrath" is ended with "their destruction", the destruction of the wrath IN MAN, who is a brute beast as it were.

Isa 10:5  O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.

Isa_10:25  For yet a very little while, and the indignation shall cease, and mine anger in their destruction.

Israel beleived God was like man, and it was the ways of man, their own ways and spirit they followed as God, that came upon them.  As.. here is what you believe I am like, so here is the type of God you believe I am.  It is not me God would say, but man who is like this.  What you want me to be like is what the Assyrian is like, carnal man, a brute beast over all.

This is a biblical staple,   Believe God is angry and we may receive those ways upon us so as you said, <<<Isa_10:25  For yet a very little while, and the indignation shall cease, and mine anger in their destruction. >>>>

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow {darkness} of death, I will fear no evil... etc.

IF God's wrath ceases in the destruction of the natural man, then where is that "wrath"?

You also well quoted the following... <<<Ecclesiastes 1:13
And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore (ra - evil) travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised (humbled) therewith.>>>>

But that is if we need to be humbled because we are proud etc, and want God to physically destroy OUR enemies and make us Lords instead of servants to all.

If we do not do the ways of the world as what we follow and obey and teach as being what God is like, we will obey the truth of Christ, doing no evil and turning the other cheek and forgiving all done to us that is evil, etc. and we will be IN GOD and the nations wrath will be destroyed by the GOODNESS of God replacing it in them.

Ecc 3:18  I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might ***see that they themselves are beasts.*** 
Ecc 3:19  For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
Ecc 3:20  All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Ecc 3:21  Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

As carnal natural Adam in nature and mind, we act no different than the animals of the world.  We need to understand that in a good way.


God bless, donken.   Thank you.

[Seth]

HI Ken,
It was actually me who you are replying to.  :bigGrin:

I hope this helps.  As you wrote...   <<<18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness....26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections...>>>

Yes, what the wrath is, is revealed to us by God from heaven, but the wrath is not in heaven, it is here in the earth as the wrath of man that does not do the righteousness of God.  That "wrath" is ended with "their destruction", the destruction of the wrath IN MAN, who is a brute beast as it were.

Yes, and that has been my point. The wrath is revealed FROM heaven, not revealed from EARTH. It's not wrath revealed from EARTH to EARTH, but from HEAVEN to EARTH. The wrath is "of GOD," not "of man," but the "wrath of God" is expressed in turning man over to be wrathful with himself and others.

This is exactly my point. If God gives man over to his own wrathfulness, it's done as a method of judgment, to humble mankind. This is why God does not actively stop every act of brutality in the world, even though he has the power to do so. God uses evil for good. His judgments are always good.

You also well quoted the following... <<<Ecclesiastes 1:13
And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore (ra - evil) travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised (humbled) therewith.>>>>

But that is if we need to be humbled because we are proud etc, and want God to physically destroy OUR enemies and make us Lords instead of servants to all.

If we do not do the ways of the world as what we follow and obey and teach as being what God is like, we will obey the truth of Christ, doing no evil and turning the other cheek and forgiving all done to us that is evil, etc. and we will be IN GOD and the nations wrath will be destroyed by the GOODNESS of God replacing it in them.

If any man says he stands, let him take heed lest he fall. I believe it is human nature to be proud. And being part of the human nature, Ecclesiastes is saying that the reason evil exists in the world is because it humbles mankind. That is why he says "have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit.". All the works done under the sun, and all the vexation of spirit is GIVEN by God to humble mankind.

It's not that God DOES evil, but he certainly GIVES evil to mankind. That is what it means to "create evil." Not that he does evil things, but that he allows man to destroy himself and others for the purpose of judgment.

This goes all the way back to what I had asked you before: Why does God create a child knowing that the child will die in a war, then refrain from proactively stopping that from occurring? Why does he allow evil when he can stop it? The example of Paul shows that God is willing to intervene under certain conditions, but not always.

Why? Because he has GIVEN this evil travail to the sons of mankind that they will be humbled therewith.

-----

You have appealed to the forum to view God as "nice" and "kind." But I believe the reason you have found the existence of evil to be problematic and difficult to explain, is because when God allows evil to occur, it doesn't neatly fit into the human view of "nice" and "kind," and therefore becomes difficult to explain. There is a Biblical explanation for it, but it will never jibe with what the world views as "niceness."

The world would not view a MAN who is able to stop an evil act and CHOOSES to refrain as "nice." So that is why when GOD makes that choice - and he does - He stretches the world's attempts to define him, according to their own understanding, to the point of being broken.

[donken]

Hi.  The wrath is on the earth but what it is has to be revealed to us by God.  We know man has done many works in the name of God, including the O.T. prophets, Moses, and Israelites, that are not allowed by us if we follow Jesus closely.  There is no anger in god and never ever was.  We are short of the glory of God automatically at our beginning because we are always short of the glory of GOD until mature.  It is a fact of everything that is made and ever will be made.  Until whatever it is is finished, it is always going to automatically without accusation, be short of the glory or presentation it produces when completed.

Same as a baby.  What kind of an adult that baby will become is not seen until that baby has become an adult, {at least about 40}

This is the way of every created thing, including US.

Sin is explained as a condition of being short of the glory of God.  Well, anything or anyone that is alive and is not God is already by birth, a sinner.  Let us get away from the condemnation eyesight and attitude we sometimes let creep in, usually when we think we are something great already.

2Co 3:7  But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
2Co 3:8  How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2Co 3:9  For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
2Co 3:10  For even that which ***was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
2Co 3:11  For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
2Co 3:12  Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
2Co 3:13  And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
2Co 3:14  But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
2Co 3:15  But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
2Co 3:16  Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.    CONDEMNATION IS TO BE REMOVED... because it is of man, not of God. 

When we say that "sin" is the natural state of all things that are not God, and that we all are going to become one with God by His spirit being in our body as who we are, the condemnation is no more in those who really believe and also understand that to some degree.  God is simply having children who do not know him, could not know him, and have not ever seen Him.    Jesus is the witness for that reason.

BLess, ken

[Seth]

Hi.  The wrath is on the earth but what it is has to be revealed to us by God.  We know man has done many works in the name of God, including the O.T. prophets, Moses, and Israelites, that are not allowed by us if we follow Jesus closely.  There is no anger in god and never ever was.  We are short of the glory of God automatically at our beginning because we are always short of the glory of GOD until mature.  It is a fact of everything that is made and ever will be made.  Until whatever it is is finished, it is always going to automatically without accusation, be short of the glory or presentation it produces when completed.

Let's look at all the words.

Romans 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

"The wrath OF GOD" (God's wrath), not "the wrath of man" is contrasted against the "righteousness of God" another possessive trait in the same chapter. God's wrath is revealed against what? "AGAINST all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men"

See? It's not that God is revealing man's wrath TO man, but revealing his own wrath against ungodliness of man. How so? By "giving them up to uncleanliness through the lusts of their hearts."

"An evil travail GOD HAS GIVEN to the sons of men to be humbled thereby." (Ecclesiastes 1:13)

[josh]

Hi.   May I ask what you think Jesus meant when he said that the night was coming {darkness} and no man would be able to work.?  How long do you think that night was or is.

Thanks, donken

SOMETHING THAT COMES TO MIND TO UNDERSTAND WHAT JESUS SAID ...

Luk 12:43  Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
Luk 12:44  Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
Luk 12:45  But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
Luk 12:46  The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
Luk 12:47  And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Luk 12:48  But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
Luk 12:49  I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?
Luk 12:50  But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!
Luk 12:51  Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
Luk 12:52  For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.
Luk 12:53  The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

THERE ARE 4 ATTITUDES
THE RIGHT ONE

Luk 12:43  Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
Luk 12:44  Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.

OF NOTE ESPECIALLLY MIGHT BE THE ATTITUDE OF
Luk 12:47  And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
INTERESTING ASIDE  MIGHT BE... FOR DOING THE RIGHT THING
HE GOT BEATEN WITH MANY STRIPES....HMMMMM

SO THE WORSEST ATITUDE WERE..
Luk 12:45  But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
Luk 12:46  The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

AND THE LEAST WORSE ATTITUDE :)
Luk 12:48  But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

AS EXPLAINED IN THE GILL BIBLE COMMENTARY
Luke 12:48  But he that knew not,.... His Lord's will; either not having the means of knowing it, as the Heathens; or through neglect of them, not attending to them, and making use of them, which is the case of many, where the Gospel revelation is:

and did commit things worthy of stripes; or punishment; as the Gentiles, by sinning against the law, and light of nature; and those who might have the advantage of a divine revelation, but neglect it: the Septuagint in Deu_25:2 have the same phrase as here,  αξιος

NOW AS TO
Luk 12:51  Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
Luk 12:52  For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.
Luk 12:53  The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

SYMBOLIC I THINK OF THE DIVISION IN THE BABY BELIEVER THAT IS RESOLVED
ONCE IT SUBMITS TO FURTHER CHASTISING AND PURGING OF THEIR REMAINING INDWELLING SINS AS REQUIRED TO MOVE FROM THE RENEWED HEART TO THE RENEWED MIND

[sheila]

my :2c:  the night is coming when no man is able to work.   the prince of this world comes and he has

  nothing in me/ speaking of His being put to death in the flesh...crying out to God the Father

  to deliver him from it....for itt is the work of God to raise up..and no man's[if we knew Jesus

  Christ after the flesh,surely we n longer do]

      FOR THE LITTLE CHILDREN WERE PARTAKERS OF FLESH AND BLOOD,SO LIKEWISE HE PARTOOK

    the   Night that was coming was death the last enemy..by which He was to 'taste " death

  for everyman[having partook of flesh and blood as the little children]

   whilst inspecting His feild..it was noted..tares sown amongst the wheat IN THE NIGHT...the

  seed of death[flesh and blood that can not inherit/for the seed from heaven is spiritual seed

  sown in corruption[flesh and blood/field..]  it is as the wheat/chaff seperated at the threshing floor

  that David bought and the plague was stopped...bought.

[donken]

Hello Cardinal.   I offer that the night is when the believer is IN THE DARK and does not really and properly know what it is his lord really is like and really does.  For example, the church actually did most of the things Israel did, including their pomp and ceremony, personal lifestyle and beliefs about themselves, and also killed and condoned killing and the fighting of wars and so on.  They did all the type of things Israel did through history.   They were in THE NIGHT.  That is what the night time is, when no man can WORK THE WORKS OF JESUS CHRIST.  Ie.. the spirit is NOT poured out upon all flesh as is said will be the case in the last days.

That is what the night time is.  Men certainly did works, through that whole time.  But Christianity was not in the "works of the Spirit", they were in the works dominated by the spirit and mind of the flesh.   Just like the O.T. people of Israel. 

Cardinal.  You do not have to answer these questions I am going to ask, to me or write your answers.  I am just asking them for you to consider if you yourself "could" do them and be the type of Christian you believe to be, and\o then know if you think those works are works of God.  How come people do not do animal sacrifices and so on today if they were acts of Christian Jesus.  In fact, we do not read that Jesus did ANY animal sacrifices etcl. personlaly during his time in Israel as a testimony of the works of God.  He tended feasts, yes, but as a high priest he did none of those things physically.

If you Christians can fight and kill men and other like things, then they will believe quite naturally that God does them also.  I mean, they will be sincerely believing what they are doing in kiliing in war or any other way and even being prejudiced for themselves over others, etc. and think these thigns are okay because they are at peace within in doing so and by what they do and okay in themselves shows what spirit or measure of the Spirit they are at that time.

If I can cheat people, for instance, and believe it iis okay because I only do it to non Christians, etc., then that is WHAT SPIRIT I AM and because I believe it is okay, I will also believe that God allows it and is one Spirit with what I DO.  I am not speaking about when someone does something wrong and knows it is wrong, or when they do something wrong in ignorance.  But they are still showing who they are at the time.

donken

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: The Holy Ghost was and has been poured out on ALL MEN (God cannot only do it for first century Christians and not for all else, otherwise He's a respecter of persons) since the first Pentecost.

It's part of our covenant, it's a free gift and the Holy Ghost DOES THE WORKS. Since the HG is Spirit, it does SPIRIT WORKS. Those works are described in the NT. In essence, it's Him lighting His candle in the Holy Place, so no, it has not been total darkness, only darkness where the light is not yet "lit".

In type, it's the outward covering of gold on the ark of the covenant, the inward being the first part of our covenant, saved by grace by belief in the Lord Jesus Christ as our personal savior, which is our "Passover" experience. If then a spiritual Passover, it follows there must be a Pentecost experience, and a Tabernacles experience, both spiritual as well. My  :2c: Blessings....