Spiritual Child Abuse??? No

[donken]

I am putting this here because it is about "what" we think about things.  Whether we think like the world, perhaps, or like the mind of Christ.  This could also be said in the thread the carnal mind versus the mind of Christ.

When a parent, adult, or even a teenager beats a baby or child, or mistreats them, especially in a violent manner, we call it Child Abuse.

We project the belief that the adult was not acting in an adult or mature way in dealing with the problem they had with the child,.  Usually it is because the adult can not CONTROL what the child is doing, often something like the child is crying and the adult can not make them stop crying.

So it is the adult that loses control of him or herself too, and acts out in the anger of frustration and impatience.

When God wanted Daniel and others in scripture to know or understand something, even new understanding, all God had to do was cause them to fall down or lie down on the ground and their physical body could not move.  the physical body and all it's "lusts" did not have any power to operate or accomplish anything.
Daniel could see and hear, but could not move.   

Certainly God has thousands of such options at his disposal without having to injure and maim and kill {murder} men.  If God really did maim and kill men in order to deal with them instead of dealing with them like he did with Daniel and others in scripture, he would be abusing people that were much much less wise and able than God is.  If God ever got angry and did such things then God would be able to be named as a child abuser and a cause of works of death.  This would also indicate that God himself "lost control in himself and got impatient".  This does not make sense at all.

God is the God of ALL, meaning there is nothing that can make him lose control or be angry.  Why?  Even anger is not able to be "greater" than the PEACE AND HOLINESS THAT IS WHO GOD IS.   We are told in scripture that without peace and holiness no one shall see God.  The word see also includes the meaning to understand mentally properly.   

Scripture tells us God is invisible and is SPIRIT.  So, to "see" God we also need to be able to "see" Spiritually.  Ie.. PEACE and HOLINESS produce a lifestyle in our physical existence that is produced by an inner, spiritual, condition.  Peace is something experienced but is not physical.   Holiness is also something one has to BE in order to know everything that holiness is, God's righteousness.  So, the Peace and Holiness we have to BE our selves in order to see {know, understand properly in a spiritual maturity} we have to BE PEACE AND HOLY ourselves, one with the Father IN US.  The peace and Holiness IS WHO THE FATHER IN US WILL BE.  And, God changes NOT.

We ALL need to hear better and more clearly, we all want to WALK WITH THE VOICE OF THE LORD GOD in us all the time.   Paradise.

Gen 3:8  And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

The cool of the day is when the sun is going down, the light is going "our".  The moral can also be seen to be that if we walk with the voice of the Lord and do not do well with Him, we may not hear so good for a while.  We need to hear and it is God's will that his will of peace and good will toward men through his righteousness in man .. be accomplished.  Once it is, it will never ever leave the creation again.  So... when it comes all will be reconciled to God personally.  There is no other way except each of us be THE SON that is raised from our former ways of death into HIS LIFEstyle and righteousness which IS LIFE.
That is my take and what I believe I have heard.


If one gets angry they have lost control of the peace and holiness they had.  God never gets angry, never loses His cool.   As I said, God has a multitude of options in dealing with anyone as an individual or as a large large group without having to maim, hurt, and slay them.  In fact, doing evil to someone to try to teach them what GOOD is, is an oxymoron, and is not wise at all.   Doing evil or  hurt to someone teaches them evil, not good.

Doing good to someone ministers or teaches what good is.  Good teaches good and evil teaches evil when the experience of each is enacted upon a person.

To do evil to someone in order to make them afraid to do something is not teaching them what good is at all.  Man thinks doing evil teaches the recipient of evil how to be good.  But God knows that it is doing good to people and making them happy and at peace inwardly is what teaches and ministers what GOOD and happiness and love is.  Evil and doing evil to someone can never teach them those good things.

So I offer, the idea and belief that God gets angry and acts upon mankind and the creation in anger and evil deeds is a carnal minded belief and is a doctrine of the MAN OF SIN, natural Adam.  The first man, not the Lord from heaven.

When it says in scripture in Revelation that all the wrath is poured out of and from heaven, {God's Kingdom} then we spiritually understand there is NONE THERE.  The picture is there is no more there as it is all gone, but what we who believe that there is no anger in THE HOLY SPIRIT know that the meaning is that there never ever was or is "wrath" and anger in heaven.

In fact scripture does tell us that Man, Israel, is the generation of HIS {God's} wrath.  The beginning of wrath is the creation, and man's carnal ways in it.   The wrath that is of man and nature does not work the righteousness of God... .in other words, it is the "spirit" and mind of SIN.  Man can not enter into God's REST in their wrath, scripture says.

God never loses his cool is what I am saying and does not abuse those who are less or short of his glory.  I mean, God who knows everything even before it is done could deal with all things and stop all things before it happened if he wanted.  So why be angry over something that happened that he knew would happen before it did happen.   That would be very immature.    God has thousands of options at his disposal to teach and change things without killing or maiming anyone.

It is the world, our own ways upon us which are worldly ways, that do the harmful things to us including evil things done by the evil or sin IN US ALL as ADAM the natural man.  The things we read about in scripture that happens to people that are evil death causing things come from the world we live in.  They are not done by God.

This is the Day of the Lord and it does come to us and we grow in it for a time "in the night" without even realizing it.    If we see the Day coming and do not blow the trumpet of where to gather, then we are not loving the body of Christ.  That body begins as a baby and child, natural carnal immature Adam.

God bless, donken

[jabcat]

Donken, from my perspective, I think obviously you're right about some things (as based on scripture);  it also seems that some things you say are influenced by your own desires and/or personal (even private) interpretation and don't have any sound basis in the whole of scripture - yet you present them as absolute fact - some of it, even seemingly vaguely referenced as a "special word" or revelation.  I believe people do get words from God, but I don't believe they EVER will contradict the scriptures;  and you seem to have some views that do contradict the scriptures.  It's been said in the discussions a few times that you seem to not believe all the scriptures we have are either inspired or accurate, and that that's why you're able to make some of the teaching statements you appear to make.  Is that an accurate view others have had of your perspective, or not?  Do you believe some of the scriptures aren't relevant/accurate, or even scripture at all?

I'm not aware that you ever "introduced" yourself, yet you've done a lot of sharing/teaching in large bodies of posts.  Perhaps other members would like to know as well, but the moderators would like to know what is your background, i.e., what has been your influence (besides what I'd suspect is your obvious answer, "the Holy Spirit")?  If you wish to present it as "prior" influence or affiliation, that's OK.  But have you been in a denomination or some other religious sect?  It comes through that you believe you have a special message/revelation for the church today that none others or few have, including at TM;  is that accurate, or how else might you address that please? 

Inquiring minds want to know :)   Thanks.

[josh]

FIRST SOME SCRIPTURES ON THE MATTER
Pro_20:11  Even a child is known by his doings, whether his work be pure, and whether it be right.
Pro_22:6  Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.
Pro_22:15  Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.
Pro_23:13  Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.

IN TERMS OF SCRIPTURE NOT ACCORDING CHILDREN AND PURE AND INNOCENT
AS PRO 22:15 SUGGESTS... i do not account this to adam's sin
which i do not think the greek new testament says that this is what made sinners of all humans but rather what caused sin to so abound to bring death to those who were already sinners... i think the creation in genesis was for the sake of souls that were already sinners... and then those working for their salvation were tempted and also became sinners but were still able to be part of what god the salvation plan back on track..

NOW THE BIBLE TELLS FATHERS CAN BE GUILTY OF UNNECESSARILY PROVOKING
A CHILD TO WRATH

Eph 6:4  And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

BUT THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT GOD IS NOT PRESENT TO HELP THE CHILD
AND THAT DESPITE SUCH HARDSHIP TO A CHILD THAT GOD IS SLACK IN HIS MERCIES AND GRACE..

Ezr 9:13  And after all that is come upon us for our evil deeds and for our great guiltiness, seeing that thou our God hast intervened that we no longer be oppressed because of our iniquities and hast given us such an escape as this,

BUT THE MORE SOCIETY ENGENDERS GREATER SPIRITUAL VALUES IN PARENTS
THE MORE ABLE THEY WILL BE TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT
NAMELY..
Pro_22:6  Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

THUS EVEN IF A CHILD'S FATHER IS GUILTY OF PROVOKING A CHILD TO WRATH
THIS I DO NOT THINK NEGATES WHAT PROVERBS SAYS HERE

Pro_20:11  Even a child is known by his doings, whether his work be pure, and whether it be right.

DOES THE ABOVE MEAN THAT THE MOTHER IS NOT ONE TO  BE HELD GUILTY FOR PROVOKING HER CHILDREN TO WRATH...
say the child is a bastard child without a father...?

[donken]

Hi.   May I ask what you think Jesus meant when he said that the night was coming {darkness} and no man would be able to work.?  How long do you think that night was or is.

Thanks, donken

[WhiteWings]

John 9:4 "As long as it is day, we must do the work of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work."

The works Jesus did, during day, was the spreading of the Gospel. Night is the opposite. No spreading of the Gospel.

The 3 woes from Revelation (which are linked to the evening service in the Temple)

:2c:

[josh]

Hi.   May I ask what you think Jesus meant when he said that the night was coming {darkness} and no man would be able to work.?  How long do you think that night was or is.

Thanks, donken

okay my first run at it
a couple of things might fit in
that there is no soul redemption when one is not incarnated in the flesh
NOT THAT ONE THO DOESNT REINCARNATE
this ties in with methinks
how
if one is not yet perfected in the word when one dies
one goes to the kingdom of heaven
for another run at perfection that has to happen when one is in an earth body..
gonna be a lot easier ..perfecting when the thousand year rule of christ happens...
which tho might not be
according to some interpretations of the great pyramid prophesy in about a thousand years
where this here is kinda the premillenia millenia

isa 19:19  In that day there shall be an altar of the Lord in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a monument of the Lord at the borders thereof:

what is referred to is i think
the great pyramid and the sphinx...

[sheila]

re; the night comes when no man can workin regard to this 'the prince of this worldcomes and has

nothing in me.."  related to the hour of trial..and this.....he that does wickedness does not come to

the light..[Ireturn to My Father/LIGHT]

..the distinctionof the children of the day[light] and the children of darkness[night]

   [Preists are to discern and make known the holy from the profane]

   now,the character of the kingdom of darkness is to come to steal,kill destroy...thus we have

   Judas..the theif..satan enterered to hand over to offspring of

vipers[preists,pharisees,sadduccees/man in corrupt image]

   to KILL/put to death the spirit son[promised] steal the dominion/kingdom/vineyard.


  natural/corrupt image[first the natural=man bornin the usual way] then the spiritual man..not born

  in the usual way..but by the promise/power of the Holy spirit............Ishmael/Isaac......of which

  Sarah said..'throw out the child of the slave woman,for he shall not inherit"

  man in the corrupt image[old man of sin] will be thrown out[chaff]..sown in corruption...raised

  up in incorruption[spirit/promised seed.

   Night comes when no man can work[but God can..He creates in the darkness..see each creation

day beginning with what God is working in the darkness.....thus n-one[man] knows  from which it come,or where it

     is  going..........thus..an enemy 'sowed' tares in the night amidst the wheat[man]  and God

knows it..He knows what lies in darkness....and what God has bound in heaven[the accusor

  temptor/adversary] shall also be bound on earth[bind up the tares at the harvest for burning]

  [Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven]...


.  Thus at that time of His visitation..wefound a seperation of those who said they had no sin....and considered themselves righteous through

the law..putting to death the child of the promise[free woman/gift of inheritance]  for the children

of the light realized that no-one was 'good' but God.....and thus claimedno righteousness of their

own/but God did His righteousness through them[I do the works of my Father]


   for the law was as a tutour to lead you to the Christ/promised seed..to make you realize you

  had no righteousness of your own/and no claim to any superiority over any man in the natural

  [thus when finding himself in the form of a man he humbled himself]..and thus we are to no longer

know Him after  the flesh.[many will cme and say 'I am the Christ..beware ye that seek him after the flesh]

   Thus ..the hour comes when no man can work..the prince of the world[darkness] comes to

  steal/destroy and kill...the hour of trial by the accusor...and yes the accusor will put to death

  the innocent/the heir '  Now my kingdom is not from this source.[temptation..all the kingdoms of

  the world I will give you if you do but one act of worship..for it has all been delivered into my

hands[Prince of this world]  turn these stones into bread[live through righteousness of your flesh]

  cast yourself down from the heights[spiritual] angels[satans'] will bear ye up[in honour of

righteousness of man's flesh]         and this is what you get..when ye claim 'godness/goodness'

righteousness of your flesh..and do NOT glorify God..but..if ye resist such things..the prince of this

world will have nothing in you...and will put you to death.  does not your law say 'ye are gods,

sons of the Most high? yet ye shall die like men"   god's have life/righteousness in themselves..they

turn 'stones/law' into bread...they live by their own righteousness...but they are as the Ishamel

  the son of the slave woman.Firstborn heir in the natural.....but the choosing is of God..and the

older shall serve the younger. for 'the natural' is what is born under the law..not the spiritual...

  thus the fleshly natural man is always condemned as a lawbreaker..and rejected of God.....[He

become sin] For with God it is first the natural then the spiritual[shown with Saul/David,Ishmael/

Isaac, Esau/Jacob.

    Ye can do nothing of yourselves,you must remain in me.....=why do you call me good..there is but

one who is good,the Father.  the Father has granted me life in myself[God's spirit in me/promised

seed]   if the spirit of Christ be in you..this same spirit shall quicken your mortal bodies.

  GOD is HOLY..and anywhere He is..becomes Holy..it has no holiness of itself..whatever it may be..

  be it a bush[burning] mountain..or man's flesh..if GOD'S PRESENCE IS IN IT ,IT BECOMES HOLY


   take offf your sandals this is Holy ground[field where He planted wheat]  the only one worthy

  of the sandals..is the Holy seed[what is born of the spirit]  THE FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING

 

[donken]

Hello.   The night when no man can work is the time when the Holy Spirit of God is not ABLE to work the fulfillment of the promises of God.  In other words, the promises are not "active" or alive in man.

We know that the apostles, especially Peter, said that there was wolves, men working as brute beasts, coming and they would pervert the church.  Also, they were not working in miracles or having much success any more in preaching their gospel with any safety for themselves.  They all died, and we know that Christianity as Jesus spoke of it went into  deep decline regarding obedience to the Love and will of Jesus Christ.  There were some small exceptions, but no one could really preach or share with any real vision except a literal carnal minded understanding and they were ruled by the natural lusts of the flesh.  WE only need look at many of the things Christianity did through History to see this.  It was the works or lifestyle of Christ Jesus that man was not able to follow SPIRITUALLY. 

Christianity had wars and poisonings and all those kind of things even among themselves.  Also, we see the abuses of the priesthood, not only the present knowledge of the last few centuries, but also all through history where Christianity was simply not much more than a dictatorial hell fire and fear based threatening message.  Man's teachings of fear and retribution in a physical manner supposedly done both physically and spiritually.  When the teachings and belief that God will do the same thing "spiritually and\pr physically" that Hitler, Caesar, Genghis Khan, and many other dictatorial kings and armies did we are seeing the abomination that makes all things desolate being preached as if that was what God {in the holy place} did also and how God does it.  THE LIE.

If God really was like that we would all be gone and dead and non existent already.

The night time.  The church simply copied the O.T. priesthood dress, with large pompous hats, robes, burning candles, jewelry on the breast, fingers, and headpieces, maces, and so on.  Outer show of things that need to be spiritually accomplished within, and they did not know this.    The O.T. was the norm for the way they acted mainly, with warring and so on.  Also, most of the people of the "dark ages" could not read or write and had to take the priests word for what God was like and what God did. 

Also, they priests often spoke in Latin, {a deeper speech than that which they could understand}, and no one but the priests could actually understand Latin or read.  They ruled through and because of the ignorance of the people, the night time ruled.

Even until lately in human history hellfire and brimstone was the mainstay of teaching and the main reason for "getting saved" as they called it. A heaven to gain and a hell to shun, etc.

The scripture tells us that there is first a natural, and then a spiritual or second man and condition.   Well today is the spiritual understanding and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit when man can understand and has BEGUN to do the works.   But, Elijah is said to come first and restore ALL things.  Included in the all things is the belief and understanding of both the old testament and the new according to a carnal or literal minded understanding, mind of the world.

Now we are being given the spiritual understanding and truth.  But like before, the natural well known and familiar spirit of the world we are first in our own selves is the strong man that fights against the Spiritual man and his truth.

The coming of Elijah the "second time" is also spiritual.  IT is what many call the Pentecostal experience and time.  They had tongues, a speech that was still darker than they could understand, and we did not really seek to interpret what was being said by God in us that we did not understand.  We "can", if one is able to accept it, that the tongues is a sign that God is speaking something from within them and they\we are not understanding his speech because what we believe and are teaching is not what GOD is SAYING.  A sign of the times.

In a sense, I offer, what I am sharing is the "interpretation" of the things that God is sharing with us today that we are not yet fully in agreement with.  Tongues if you like is a "hidden manna".

Like John the Baptist, the spirit of Elijah that was natural and not spiritual, the early Pentecostal preaching and teaching and writing of books etc. was carnal or worldly spirited, teaching God's judgment etc. as if it was literally applied etc.  Name it and claim it type of ideas, and so on.  John said of himself, he did not know Christ, he was not the light that Christ is, and that he could not loose Christ's shoe latchet, etc.  I knew HIM NOT, John said.  And.. John also said that he had to decrease and Jesus had to increase.

This is the same as saying the old man and his ideas, teachings, and ways had to begin to perish and the Spiritual meaning and ways of Jesus Christ had to replace them, the old man being "overcome" or changed into the NEW MAN by the Spirit that leads us into all truth.  The result of following the Spirit will be that those who do so fully to maturity will be Jesus Christ and they will know that who he is has COME TO THEM by their change to who JESUS IS.

God bless, Donken.

[sheila]

  Elijah did come a secound time..in John the Baptist..and again a third time[two or three wittness's]

  on the vision of the Mount of transfiguration..speaking with Christ..

   the third time..for the two wittnesses were called up here..'come up here" on the Mount of

  Transfiguaration[Spirit]

   the same spirit in operation in Elijah,John the Baptist..that was the Spirit of God that was also

  in Jesus Christ.  the SPIRIT[Elijah],the WATER[John the Baptist] and the Blood[Christ]..for no

  forgiveness of sins occurrs unless blood is poured out.[LAW/ATONEMENT/MOSES]

[donken]

Hello.

The vision on the mount was a vision.  No man has ascended to heaven except Jesus Christ.  Ie... all others are dead.  The spirit of Elijah is the spirit of prophecy and such from God.  But, even the high priest in Jesus' day in Israel prophesied, and HE DID NOT KNOW JESUS CHRIST.   I am sure you have heard prophetic utterances at times that were utterly carnal.  The natural man does not know the things of God and interprets and understands all or most things naturally and misses the spiritual inner accomplishment of the prophetic.

Bless, donken

[sheila]

would He who counsels be not over-righteous,nor over-wicked...require it of His creatures

  in His image...why should ye die?   I have heard you  put forth your own righteousness as above

  God's[see Job/will you condemn God that ye be righteous?] call Him an abuser? Certainly Job

  had an encounter..and so shall you..and you will repent and acknowledge that you spoke of things

you knew not.  Job saw it as unjust..that God should turn loose satan against him..remmove the

hedge around him[as He does with all men from the beginning in the garden]  child abuse?

   shall Jesus accuse the Father of child abuse? the prophets? the apostle's? the christian's

fed to the lion's Do you think it just that the innocent be put to death for the guilty? what if the

only innocent one is God..and He willingly lay down His life to take it back up again/and also

to take with Him that which was lost[ifI be lifted up I shall draw all men unto me]

  Can you then see the 'suffering of evil" to fulfill a higher purpose as righteous?

   He says 'I will recompense" and He does.......the apostle's said ' any suffering we may incurr

  is as nothing in relation to the glory that will be.

  WHAT IF GOD PUT UP WITH VESSELS OF WRATH FITTED FOR DESTRUCTION...IN ORDER TO

  SHOW HIS GREAT MERCY UNTO VESSELS OF MERCY. Fitted for Glry

............the vesselof wrath fitted for destruction is the natural man in the image of the corrupt

one[satan]son of perdition/man of sin...the vessel of mercy is the new man in Christ,in the image

and likeness of God/promised seed.  Jesus Christ kinsman redeemer..to raise up seed for

  His dead brother Adam[through one man sin entered]  Andas all men have bore the image of the

corrupt,so,too,shall all men bear the image of the incorrupt one.

[eaglesway]

"The vision on the mount was a vision". Perhaps so, but for the purposes of the forum, you need to express your opinion as an opinion.

I believe it was a transfiguration and a revelation of Hebrews 12, "You have come to Mt Zion, the heavenly Jerusalem......The spirits of righteous men made perfect."

I could say,

"No, you are incorrect, the vision on the mount was an intersection of the realm beyond the veil(time transcendent) and the earthy, time limited expression of God in Christ".

This is what I believe, but it would be presumptuous of me to insist upon it in a forum discussion where many valid alternate views of a subject mat be held- and counterproductive to the purposes of the site t make a lengthy debate of a fringe subject.

This is. whether you "hear" it or not- the basis upon which the forum operates in oreder to preserve an atmosphere where everyone may share from their individual perspectives.

Donken, based on your writing, and intelligent presntations of your views, I fnd it impossible to believe you are not able to understand what I am saying, so the only alternative I can come up with is you have no inclination to respect the policy of the site for some reason.

Whatever that reason, I am disappointed that you are unwilling to represent yourself in a less declarative manner, and that you, when requested to do so, simply plow on in your views without responding to this request.

My disappointment is  nothing for anyone else's regard- it is just that I don't like to limit or eliminate anyones participation in the forum, and I know my fellow moderators feel the same way.

However, you have been warned in kindness and restraint on many occasions at this point, and I am thinking you have no regard for this policy about 1)sharing opinions and perspectives for individual discernment, or 2) the policy that all the scriptures, except where clearly demonstrated as mis-translated are expressions of the Logos, which is absolutely non- negotiable.

This is the last warning. I placed this in a thread so that if and when you are limited or banned, other interested members will know the reason for it.

John

[sheila]

  I don't think you know what a vision is..it is a reality in the spiritual realm....the assured expectation

of what is not yet beheld .  The people perish without a vision,all men live unto God.[no law

against the spirit[God] no death.  May it occur unto you according unto your faith.

  think not that you will precede those who have died...if they are not alive..then neither are you.

   Jesus Christ said 'I AM THE RESURRECTION"  each in his own order.

   the Hour is coming and is NOW when all men shall hear the voice of Him and come forth from their

graves.

   Because you do not see the dead raised in the natural you do not beleive this[judge not by the

appearance of the eyes] But He also worked many signs and miracles in the natural in His day

  and raised the dead..in the natural,so that they would know that the dead are raised.


  but the upward call is a better resurrection and not seen by many,but nly those whowere

gathered there that day when He ascended to wittness it.  just as Elisha wittnessed it in the case

of Elijah.....and just as Moses body was hidden by Michael the archangel when it come .

  WHERE ARE ELIJAH'S AND MOSES AND CHRIST'S DEAD BODIES?

[donken]

As to visions.   The  interpreter is carnal, and sees it with their MIND. within.  Not outwardly.  When the eyes are open, the vision from God is seen against the background of what their own eyes see at that time.  That is why no one else sees it unless God shows it to many at once.  You know, Paul did not see a vision of Jesus that included Jesus having long hair.  People are given visions according to what they presently think Jesus looked like so they know where the vision is coming from.  But the interpretation is entirely at the mercy of the one seeing the vision and the mind they have at the time.

Mat_17:3  And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Appeared  unto THEM.  Jesus did not need them to tell him what to do, did he?  He said himself, many times, according to the scriptures.  The point of the vision was that they were to HEAR JESUS ALONE, and not Moses' and Elijah's' entire ways any more.  The O.T. needs to be SPIRITUALLY CIRCUMCISED.  This circumcision reveals the HEAD that gives forth life plainly from among all the "other stuff" in the O.T..

Luk 9:30  And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
Luk 9:31  Who appeared in glory, and spake of his ****decease*** which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

Moses and Elijah minster JESUS' DEATH.  Still today, if we believe Jesus and His witness of the Father include the warring and killing and animal sacrifices as who God is and what God desires, then the way, truth, and life of GOD is still partly hidden to us, to the eyes of our understanding, and we are in shadow or remain mostly in shadows and types for understanding.  We have to come out from the shadow and let the light of Christ shine IN US.

Jesus died according to the scriptures we know the scriptures themselves say by Jesus' words in it.  THE LETTER KILLETH.  We are not to minister THAT Letter ANY MORE.    All the physical worldly understanding of the scriptures, especially those that speak of destruction and sorrow and death are now to be understood in a spiritually circumcised manner.   For instance, the fire that Elijah is pictured as calling down from the sky is to be understood as the consuming fire of God that establishes life in all who endure it.  God is love.  God is consuming fire.  Love is the fire that burns up all hate, envy, greed, etc, when it iis ALIVE {burning freely and felt deeply} WITHIN ANYONE.

Choose the good and refuse the evil, even the evil interpretation when God is fulfilling the scriptures Spiritually, as God IS SPIRIT and when God fulfills them they are done according to his domain and righteousness, which is SPIRITUAL,

God bless, donken.   

[sheila]

re; as to visions..the interpreter is carnal and see's it with their minds.   

   2 Kings 6;16  Don't be afraid,the prophet answered. Those who are with us are more then

  those who are with them. And Elisha prayed.O'Lord open his eyes that he may see.

   ...then the Lord opened the servant's eyes and he looked and saw the hills full of horses

and chariots of fire all around Elisha.

    I come that those who see become blind..and that those who are blind may see.

[donken]

Hi.  I remind us that if we say we see our sin remains.  And certainly there are some beliefs in Christianity that say they have no sin because Jesus took it. 

Out body is the temple of the Lord, the bible records, does it not?    And, we read that the DAY OF THE LORD will not come until the man of sin {carnal doctrines} are seen to be sitting in the temple of God {US} showing those things to us as if they were of God, and making us believe that some things that are not Spiritual are of GOD.  Until we see that the our errors, we can not be gathered to the DAY OF CHRIST.  why?  Because we will be the strong man that needs to be bound, sincerely and devoutly believing our errors are correct and forcing the scripture to agree with what we desire it to say.

I would say, perhaps we should believe anything we hear about GOD that makes Him nicer and kinder and more forgiving than we presently think, and let God tell us he is not that nice or good.    We strike the rock when we believe God does the evil of the old testament, even if only sometimes.  IT is the ways of death in the OLD testament that are used to KILL JESUS.  We also can kill him AGAIN in us if we end up not in the truth.  But again, it is up to each individual as to what they are comfortable believing about God.  Jesus did not harm or violence to any.    The temple cleansing is a parable about OUR temple being cleansed by Chirst when Christ Jesus is IN IT, and there is no violence done there.  IT is the indwelling love of GOd within us in living power, not a mental belief only, that does it.

God bless, donken

[Seth]

I would say, perhaps we should believe anything we hear about GOD that makes Him nicer and kinder and more forgiving than we presently think, and let God tell us he is not that nice or good.    We strike the rock when we believe God does the evil of the old testament, even if only sometimes.

At the very LEAST, God allows evil to occur when he has the power to stop it. No?

[donken]

Yes.  Because God does not rule by dictatorship, Love does not rape.  I believe that these kind of truths are only able to be known by those who God has enough say in so that they will not try to foolishly take advantage of them to "do evil".  These are the things we are to be given as we become the mature son that will accept problems in our lives also, if they occur.  We find that it is often our own decisions that will cause us problems at times, even when they did not seem to be or were not inherently evil.

When human parents have children, they do not and can not rule in the baby.  yes, they are stronger than the baby etc. but they do not rule IN the baby.  Why.  The baby can not willingly comply with what they want because number one the baby is not an adult and can not act like one even if the baby knew what was wanted of him.  The baby has to come to the place of some maturity where the baby now a child can understand in SOME measure what is wanted of him, even if the child does not know why.

Here is an example someone gave about how they learned something and also did so because they acted as a child.

There was hot wood stove in their house for warmth, and the child was near the stove {I assume} and her mother told her "do not touch the stove", it is hot.

The girl immediately, she said, put her finger on the stove and burned it and blistered it.  It  hurt and was sore.  So, the mother was telling her something for her good, but because the girl did not obey her mother, she hurt herself.   So it is with what God tells us about being good.  If we do not understand what God is saying and why, we do those things and sometimes we reap very bad results because of it.  In the O.T. they naturally thought automatically like the world is, that God was doing evil to them for their doing bad... but it was the bad they did that caused them to have bad done to them.  Why.  God did not support them and "save" then when they were "not obeying Him".   Fear can not make one BE GOOD, it can only perhaps, make them afraid to do their natural evil acts.

So, the girl who burned her finger learned that it was evil to touch a hot stove with here skin.  But... later on she also would have learned that she could touch the stove when it was not HOT or have a fire in it.  So, eventually, for her own good, she obeyed what her mother wanted her to obey all the time.  SHe came into agreement with the "commandment" or information of her mother.  The little girl did and still does it all on her own now, not touching a hot stove.

If God did evil to people foir doing evil things, do we not think we would think we could do evil to people too "to teach them a lesson", supposedly.

Hurting someone does not teach them what GOOD IS, it teaches them evil and that WE DO IT TO THEM.  That is why MEN and the world are the "spirit of wrath" that does the evil to Israel, to Jesus, and to us at times.  WE are to turn the other cheek in faith if we believe Jesus, and we will reap that Spirit eventually, fully.

That is why the scripture tells us in a way, that if we obey God then he will take the rod of wrath away from the "man who do not believe" at this time, and they will be turned to God.  I believe I see that truth in scripture where if we obey God HE will keep us and keep "the wrath and war away".

In fact, the twin towers are a warning in type.  If we were close to God we may have heard or come to know about the plot before it happened and stopped it.
I have my own experiences of that kind of thing being true.  God showed me a few times that I was going to have an accident {small ones} and because I did not seek him to find out what they were and how I could change what would happen, they happened.  I believed at that time that God would surely make sure I did not experience them {I did not know what they were at the time as to what kind of accident} because he showed me about them, I though he would take care of it.  But... I found out, without much hurt and without enmity against God, that I HAD TO PARTICIPATE in changing what I did and how I did it if I was going to change what happened to me.  So it is with our experiences in the world

God may say if you do this certain thing this will surely happen to you. But if you turn from doing it, you will have good in return to you instead of hurt or evil.

Simple for us who have experienced many things in the world, some good some not so good, to understand that.

How many times have some of us had an inkling to do something or do it a certain way, then ignored it and had a problem and then said "I KNEW I shouldn't do that, or I KNEW I shouldn't have gone, etc.

Thanks, donken.

[Seth]

Yes.  Because God does not rule by dictatorship, Love does not rape.  I believe that these kind of truths are only able to be known by those who God has enough say in so that they will not try to foolishly take advantage of them to "do evil".  These are the things we are to be given as we become the mature son that will accept problems in our lives also, if they occur.

So, God can know before he creates a child, that the child will be sexually assaulted, or murdered in a war, but purposefully withholds his power to stop it before it occurs....because he doesn't rule by dictatorship?

If you were able to stop a child from those things, would you do it, if you had the power? If not, would your reason be that you don't want to be too much of a dictator?

[donken]

Hello Seth.   Thanks for your reply.   I also "think" I understand your perplexity with all the evil that goes on in the world with seeming free course.

It is one of the great problems that many people have with believing in God, I am sure.  There is not much I can say in regard to your statement that may help right now, but it may help later.   First, we are being given the gift of having eternal life and understanding everything.  God is not created, and God is not forced to be God.  By that I mean, if we are to be God or as God is if you prefer, we can not be forced to be God because God is not forced to be who he is except by His OWN ATTRIBUTES without being forced or coerced into being who He is.  We have to become one with Him by His judgments\wisdom and character being ours also, but it has to be done by our own judgments being the same as God's present judgments\wisdom. 

Since God is not "made" we can not become one with God by being made or forced to be who God is by anyone but our selves through His spirit in us being obeyed by us willingly and knowingly, choosing his judgments\wisdom as our own.    If this is not real clear, write me again about it and I will try again.  I do not know how anyone reading what I am saying here will receive it, or understand it.  Every thing we hear or read is interpreted by us according to what we think it is saying and according to how we think at the moment\time.   

By this I mean, everything anyone hears or reads or sees is ultimately understood\interpreted according to our own personal prejudice or judgment and to whether we understand the words the way the writer means them or not.   We all have been given information by our wife or husband or some friend about doing something for them or picking up something for them while we are out or at the store or whatever, and we often think we know what they said and that we understand it, but we bring the wrong thing back with us, or the wrong brand, or something.  We thought we knew what they meant but did not really know "exactly".

We can not be God the son without "seeing" or understanding what God desires and is doing and we do it with agreement to the point of becoming the person or personality that is the one that does things "that way" freely.  The body is created, but God in it is not.  God in us can not be "created" or forced by some other outer power to "be GOD" in us, and God is not coerced to be who he is either.  IF we were "forced" to be God against our choice, then we are only a robot and there is no need to go through all this process of being made alive, we would be made or forced to be "like a man" but not be free to "not be one"

When we become fully one with God, as His son who is God Spiritually, then we too must be established by OUR OWN JUDGMENTS and our OWN WAYS.  I hope this makes sense to you even if you do not agree with it or like it.

These evil things "we do" only will stop when we willingly stop doing them evilly.  The only answer is that all be the same Spirit as God is, and that can not be done without us having God's judgments, wisdom, and choices willingly and in agreement that they are the only good way to be and live.  God, who we are actually going to be, can not be forced to be God by an outside force, after all we are becoming His son who is WHO GOD IS,.  Man is so used to making people do what he wants that he finds this truth "odd" or maybe even foolish, especially at the first perhaps.

As we mature, we as the son take all these things in stride, knowing WE DID THEM, not God, and see them as the labour pains of our birth as the son.  This is like Jesus did... not wanting to have to drink the cup if it could be done any other way.  IT could not, apparently, yes?

As Paul said in Colossians.....  "we" were enemies in our mind by and because of wicked works, and now we are to understand we are still "filling up" or enduring the sufferings of Christ Jesus {who we will be in maturity} in our flesh, until WE STOP DOING the evil en mass, and until we conquer all disease and the weather and the environmental damages we do etc, as THE GARDENER IN THE GARDEN of God. 

Col 1:21  And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
Col 1:22  In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
Col 1:23  If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Col 1:24  Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

This can only be done after Jesus Christ "arrives" in the fullness of times in the fullness of Spirit within us, in marriage to the Spirit of God within, and bring our bodies into submission to God's righteousness and leaving our own ideas of righteousness.  We do the evil, we must stop doing it and as the man of Peace we will be given the knowledge and ability to overcome the rest of the creation as the Son of God IN IT.  First, we must become Christ Jesus in maturity, and then do those greater works than Jesus as one person in Israel could do because we will be many.

But that knowledge and ability to conquer and control weather and the elements of the universe and nature can not be given to man when man is till a murderer or will still use that knowledge and power to do evil works against himself toward others.

If God was a dictatorial Spirit then we would either all be dead all ready, or we would be mindless machines.  We would have no need to be "alive".   But what life does is.. it gives itself to things that do not have it and in doing so slays the death or nothingness condition it once existed mindlessly without life in.  As scripture mentions, God could raise up of children of Abraham out of stones\rock.  This is my understanding so far.

So, God does know what "we might do" but also works within the creation as we grow to show us and RELATE to us how to prevent that or change that from happening, but often we DO NOT HEAR HIM.  We can not be told what to do all the time by "words" that are not ours, because that too is law and not character.
The character of God is who God is, and that character is THE SPIRIT, it is GOD.  We are not going to be "like" god always being told by someone else what to do, we are going to have to tell our own selves from within our own selves what to do and how to do it.   But man of course, understands fully, if one does not do what one wants, get a gun.

God bless, donken

[Seth]

Ken,
Just to be clear, I am not perplexed by this problem. What I am doing is testing to see if your theology can answer the tough questions and with what solutions. Having read your reply, it seems that you are saying that God does not stop evil because he doesn't want to force people to love him or be good.

I recall how Christ stepped in to stop Paul from his task of persecuting the church. He did so with a bright light which blinded Paul and shocked him into immediate compliance. How many lives did Jesus save by actively intervening?. It seems that Jesus has violated the theory, you propose, that he won't intervene for the sake of not forcing Paul to compliance.

Jesus is perfectly able to reveal this bright light whenever evil is happening in the world, I agree with your statement that "it is one of the great problems that many people have believing in God." But I will answer that problem from the scripture.

This will not be easy for anyone to accept, as it was not easy for me to accept either, but here goes:

Romans 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness....26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet (which they had coming to them). 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful.

That passage provides the answer. God gives evil to the world as "recompense for their error." The results: murder and lack of mercy. See, this is not the OT, which you have claimed to be spoken from the spirit of man. This is the New Testament, spoken by Paul, an Apostle of Christ who gave doctrine as he received it directly from the Lord. Do you see how similar his words are to the OT?

Ecclesiastes 1:13
And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore (ra - evil) travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised (humbled) therewith.

There's your answer. God doesn't stop evil from occurring because he has GIVEN it to the sons of man to be humbled therewith.

[micah7:9]

"Hello.   The night when no man can work is the time when the Holy Spirit of God is not ABLE to work the fulfillment of the promises of God. In other words, the promises are not "active" or alive in man."(donken)

Holy Spirit is NOT able? NOT ABLE?

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: This is what I see. People that have been brought to an understanding of God's unconditional love, have thought that that was the end of the journey. We keep loving, we keep forgiving, until it's like second nature to us, literally, because our nature and His have "merged" into one. I get that, I've had to walk it out, been walking it out, walking it out right now, will continue to walk it out until I die or He moves to do the rest of His plan.

BUT; it doesn't stop there, a spirit of complacency has come upon the body to get them to stop pressing in beyond that revelation. I say this because the unconditional love being formed in us is to cleanse the motive of the heart, so He CAN bring judgments through us once perfected with it, that will be Him and only Him, no contamination of a wrong motive left to raise up in us. My  :2c:  Blessings.....

[donken]

Thank you Cardinal, for sharing yourself with us in these points.

I agree.  I also believe that this is that DAY.  Why.  Because Christ Jesus is "coming" or appearing as the lightning shines from the east to the west.

That lightning really means, like the arriving daylight shines from the east to the west, as the sun which is the physical natural light of the world by which we see to walk without stumbling over things like we do in the dark, unless we are blind in our physical eyes.

So it is with Jesus Christ as the spiritual light of the world and HIS APPEARING.  Like the sunlight of the creation, Christ light to the world and to the worldly does not shine to everyone one at one time.  One person can be in the dark while another can be beginning to see the light of Christ in their understanding.  But like the natural sun light of the world, even though it can shine on the east coast and be dark in the west coast for a while, by the end of one day the same light {the sun in this case} will and does shine to the whole world, everywhere in the world.

So it is with the now appearing light of the SON to the SON in this DAY of the LORD.

Bless, donken

[Seth]

Ken, do you believe my response (#20) makes sense to you?