War in heaven

[ed]

I have no idea where this idea comes from.

Was there an actual war? 

For me there could not be a war with God.  I'd like for some of you to share your understanding of it.

Is it all from Revelation? 

Every time some states "there was a war in heaven" I wonder.................
My faith is not dualistic.  I don't see anything that could war with God.

Along the same lines could you all share your understanding of the devil?  I don't really get that part either.  Is there a devil being who is in charge of the evil on the world?

Thanks for your help.

.

[sheila]

well..the war is not against flesh and blood,but powers and principalities in high places. It is a spiritual warfare..Christ wages

war in righteousness[He come to break up the work of the devil]

  in the book of Daniel you will see Gabriel prevented from getting the revelation that God desired be delivered to him

  due to the 'prince[apality] of Persia' and it was when Michael come to assist him[Gabriel] that the spiritual message

  was able to be delivered.  The stras of the heavens[angels] fight for the Lord..to spiritually edify,inform reveal.

   the enmity between the seed continues..until the enemy seed's head is crushed.

      the adversary does 'war' against God's will..that is why he is called a rebellious spirit.  I will put enmity between the

serpent's seed and the seed of the woman.

[ed]

Thanks sheila.

I'm interested in the Danial take.  I've never studied it before.

I thank God for the unrest of my soul, for the unrest signifies change, and change signifies the manifestation of the kingdom of God overtaking my kingdom. Until He has accomplished the necessary overthrowing of my dragon, I will incline my heart to Him, and I will sing of His greatness and the enduring mercies of David.  I will have my rest in Him, until the kingdoms of my world become the kingdoms of the Kingly Lord.   Let the heathen rage and let the earth reel to and fro like a drunkard, but I will stand still and hold my peace, for the Lord is my deliverer and my reward.  Woe to the inhabitants of my earth, for the dragon is cast down into my earthly mind, and there will be great judgments upon that part of my fallen self, but I will stay in the house of the Lord and will open up my doors and my gates to the rising King and He and I will sup together and will drink the new wine of His kingdom and break the bread of His fellowship.  Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him!
http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/Revelation/rev141.htm

In the book of Daniel Michael is expressly identified with the Messiah (Dan. 12:1).  In Daniel 10:21 he is called, “Michael your prince.”  This personal pronoun “your” is of interest.  The archangel is definitely a warrior, and his name means “who is like God.”  He defends the celestial realms, exalting the glorious God, yet his ministry is wondrously on behalf of God’s people.   “At that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people…” (Dan. 12:1).  In I Thessalonians 4:16-17 the “voice of the archangel” is represented as the voice that awakens the dead.  “And the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven…in the voice of the archangel…and the dead in Christ shall rise first…”  Significantly, Daniel 12:1-2 draws the same connection.  “And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people…and many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth SHALL AWAKE…”  And whose voice is it that quickens men and raises them out of the death-realm into the life of God?  None other than THE VOICE OF THE SON OF GOD!  “Verily, verily I say unto you,” Jesus asserted, “the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear THE VOICE OF THE SON OF GOD, AND THEY THAT HEAR SHALL LIVE” (Jn. 5:25).  The voice of the archangel, therefore, is the voice of the Son of God!

            There can be no doubt about it — the title “archangel” signifies CHIEF MESSENGER — and the question follows: WHO IS GOD’S CHIEF MESSENGER?   Who else but our glorious Head — the Lord Jesus Christ!  His name is called The Word of God!  “And He Himself existed before all things, and in Him all things consist — cohere, are held together.  He also is the Head of His body, the church; seeing He is the beginning, the Firstborn from among the dead, so that HE ALONE IN EVERYTHING AND IN EVERY RESPECT MIGHT OCCUPY THE CHIEF PLACE — stand FIRST and be PREEMINENT” (Col. 1:17-18, Amplified).  The name “Michael” means WHO IS LIKE GOD — an appropriate title for Him who is “the sole expression of the glory of God — the Light-being, the out-raying of the divine — and He is the perfect imprint and very image of God’s nature” (Heb. 1:3, Amplified).   No one who ever lived can be compared to our incomparable Christ, for He is King of kings and Lord of lords.  He is alive forevermore, by many infallible proofs.  At the sound of His voice all who are in the graves of sin, sorrow, and death will arise to live in His presence.  Certainly the whole Christ body, all who are made ONE IN HIM, share this life, victory, glory and image!

In the light of such a profound array of scriptures as those we have just considered, can any doubt that in the Revelation “Michael” is the code-word for our Lord Jesus Christ, the Chief Messenger; and “Michael and His angels” who fight against the dragon, and prevail, and cast the great dragon out of the heavens of the Spirit, are indeed none other than Christ and His many brethren, the manifest sons of God!  Ah, yes, the sons of God are the army of God, and Jesus Christ our Lord is the Captain of His army!  An army is for war, and there is war in heaven!  Our great Captain is He who knows the end from the beginning, and He has already written the advance report on the outcome of this war!  That report is recorded in chapter twelve of the book of Revelation.  I have read the report, and I have good news for every soldier in the Lord’s army.   Fight on, saints of God, THE VICTORY IS ASSURED!  It is indeed wonderful!
http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/Revelation/rev141.htm

[donken]

Hello.   There was never any devil in God's Kingdom, which we sometimes refer to as "Heaven".  And we are looking for heaven to be on earth as well, are we not.
IF there ever was rebellion against God in His Kingdom, then SIN is there and there would be no difference between the world and eternity, or eternal life.  Scripture says that without peace and Holiness NO ONE shall see God.  So.   did or does the "devil" ever see God.  No.  The devil is something or anyone that presents themselves or itself as being Godly and Godlike and is a LIE about God just by their existence of being short of the Glory that God is.

A human baby is a human, but if we stated that a human baby is the image of a human adult, we would be a liar.  When men and Christianity say that we are already in the image of God and we do ungodly things, we are the liar about who God is and what God is like.  We understand that we often do this in ignorance, not knowing or meaning to do so.  When men teach that the first man as they call him, in scripture, was like God, man is lying in ignorance trying to put his own ideas of what the scripture means as truth.  The first man is CARNAL, natural, earthy, and is not THE LORD FROM HEAVEN.  1 Corinthians 15 states that clearly, but men still continue, even in reconciliation circles, to try to say that the first man was Jesus Christ.

The story of Adam and Eve is not literally or physically true.  It is a parable.  They were naked and did not know it, for instance.  Well, they did not know something Jesus knows, did they?  A human baby is perfect when they are born if they have all their legs and arms and eyes working properly and so on, but if we said they were already an adult we would be incorrect.  They have not done anything wrong or un-adult when first born, but they will because of what is in them at their birth.  They are EMPTY of knowledge, and wisdom and the muscle ability of an adult, can not walk, can not speak or communicate verbally nor understand THE SPEECH OF AN ADULT.   

Did not Jesus say, why can you not understand MY SPEECH.  Yes, He did.  He said it was because they were not OF HIM. {yet}.

Anything or anyone that is "being created" and is not finished is naturally and without blame SHORT OF THE GLORY IT WILL BE WHEN COMPLETED {perfected}.  God has been making man and bringing man into His image spiritually within for eons of time and we are now just at the culmination of the appearance of the mature man, Jesus Christ, in the creation.   Does not scripture say in Revelation that Jesus Christ is a CREATURE, a created person?  Yes it does.

WE, all mankind, is to be the Jesus Christ for this whole creation at the maturity we are now approaching.  When something that is being made is finished, it does not change any more and therefore is "eternal".  Not things in and of the world, but in God's realm they are eternal and change no or no more.

Multitudes of people in Spiritual maturity in the creation are the appearing\parousia of Jesus Christ the man and we will then be the Son of God, many membered, that will complete all the work of God in the whole universe.  We are the FIRST THING God completes in the creatioin\universe.  Greater works will the many do than the one man can do.  God is everywhere and eventually the physical Jesus Christ in the creation will be physically everywhere by being many many people in Spiritual maturity doing the work of GARDENING THE UNIVERSE to make it beautiful and alive everywhere.

The "heaven" the way takes place in is our spirit, sometimes called our heart and the mind of that spirit\heart.  The lies or untruths about God being cast out IN US and the nature of God resurrecting again in the life in us is the place of that war, which only happens effectively when Jesus Christ, who is like God, begins to appear to us {in our understanding} and as OUR OWN SPIRIT in us.

The scripture that has caused many of us to be errant in understanding that says that the devil was seen to fall from heaven like lighteniing needs to be understood spiritually.

Adversity in us and against us in the world lost it's purpose because of our ignorance about our selves and about our growth.  Adversity lost it's spiritual or heavenly purpose IN US and instead of being a light or revelation of some truth to us, it because our darkness, earthy or carnally understood instead of spiritually understood.

The enmity in us all, at birth, as a natural human person in the flesh, is the "adversity" that is against the way of the Spirit of God in us and is also the source of our immaturity.  Jesus abolished that enmity in HIS OWN FLESH on the cross, by witnessing only the attributes and ways of God in his body and keeping all contrary lusts and thoughts OUT of his walk in the world as a human adult.  The adversity is the "law or principle of sin {immaturity} that is in each of us, in OUR OWN FLESH as Paul and Galatians 5 tell us.

Adversity or conflict with the Holy Spirit {god} is naturally in us when we are not a mature finished creature yet.  Just as a child is not an adult yet, but will be eventually, if the child lives through all the good things and the problems that the child encounters during their growth toward an adult and eventually becoming an adult.  IF they do not live through it all, they never become an adult.

Here is a scripture to consider among many others that say much the same thing.  It witnesses what is said above if we can work it out.

Col_1:24  Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

This scripture says Paul, and therefore we too, are TO FILL UP or complete that which remains undone as yet of the afflictions that Christ {in us} must continue to suffer {in us} in and because of our flesh in immaturity, for HIS BODIES sake. {the flesh of mankind in immaturity suffers sorrow, pain, and death, etc.}

The enmity is in our own flesh as the law of sin in our members that makes us captive to doing things that we often do not want to do.  Sometimes we know they are against God in us and sometimes they fool us into thinking God is like that law of sin or some parts of it.  That makes us, our flesh, the MAN OF SIN that makes himself God to us.  Immature Adam.

In 2 Thessalonians 2 the SPIRIT of the mouth of Christ and the brightness {light to be in us} of His appearing is what destroys the MAN OF SIN {our immaturity}.  It is IN OUR HEART as that scripture says ... Jesus comes to where SATAN DWELLS OR WORKS, where death and it's causes exist, to remove their power of existence IN US so it is no more "our boss".
Oh wretched MAN that *I* am, who shall save me from the body of this death.  Spiritual maturity in me as Jesus Christ will. 

Rom_7:24  O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?   So, where is the death "working"  IN US, because of sin or because of being short of the glory of God, YET.

Rom_7:13  Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
SIN working DEATH where???   IN US.  That is where "the satan is, the resistance to God is".   How death works IN Us is by us being alive.  Sin is not works of life, but sin can not exist where there is nothing alive.  What is good in us is life and everything life is, but because we are alive and not like God in Spiritual Holiness and peace YET, sin "works" death IN US, but only because we are alive but not eternally alive YET/

The law of sin in our members is the "serpent" in our tree that deceives us about God and causes us to believe THE LIE.  We are now being given eyes to see, the eyes of our understanding are being enlightened to SEE {know} the glory {wisdom} of GOD ... FROM WITHIN US.

Thank you, and God bless.  Donken

[lastpost]

Matt. 10:20
For it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.

1 Peter 4:10-11
Each of you should use whatever gift you have received to serve others, as faithful stewards of God's grace in its various forms.


O Great Healer of the heart, the mind and the body, we present ourselves once more before Thee with faith, with trust and with confidence; and we know that, as we wait, so the blessing descends upon us, and we are recharged with vitality and with those needs of the body which must be there in order to carry this work on without hindrance.

Saviour Christ, we know that Thou art always more ready to listen than we are to pray: yet because Thou knowest the frailty and the weakness of Thy children so Love steps in, and taking our wish to be even as the accomplished thing, Thou leadest us on out of the desert experience into the summerland of understanding.

Give us this day our daily bread - that food for the soul, that inspiring of the physical mind - so that we may start anew, each day beginning anew to work out that which Thou hast ordained, forgetting yesterday and not anticipating tomorrow... just starting each fresh day with renewed courage and determination, realising that we are following the guidance of the Holy Spirit. And so guarded and protected, nothing can go amiss, and all will be shown in the happy years to come as threads in the Great Pattern - the Great Pattern on which we have been privileged to work for the redemption and the raising up of mankind.

Father God, we thank Thee, and we ask Thee that we may be taught how to be truly grateful - how to be truly grateful in an understanding way for all the gifts which Thou hast showered upon us. Teach us, O Father, so that we may teach others, and they, in turn, may pass on the glorious message of hope, of cheer and joy - that perfect joy which comes when close communion with Thee is once firmly established... Amen...


1 Cor. 12:10 (NLT)
He gives one person the power to perform mirracles, and another the ability to prophesy. He gives someone else the ability to discern whether a Message is from the Spirit of God or from another spirit. Still another person is given the ability to speak in unknown languages...

[sheila]

the way of a serpent on a rock...the more the sun shines on the rock..the more lively the serpent becomes..............

  men are as trees in the garden...the serpent more subtil then any beast of the field..we are counseled to be as cautious as

  the serpent,yet innocent as doves.  the original serpent[adversarial spirit] first entered/took on the appearance of the serpent

      first words of the adversary..question the word f God given to Adam..secound.....in[sin]u-ate God is a liar[slanderer]

  third..tempt-4th lead out.

   the sin in ourflesh is likened to a serpent in our tree...........it calls God a liar..usurps His rulership over man to lead him to his death

  it promises 'wisdom' but is nothing but a spirit of folly

  we wrestle not flesh and blood..but powers and principalities in high places.  see account in Daniel where Gabriel needed

  assist from Michael to get the word of God to him..due to adversary.

   there was war in heaven..MIchael and his angels fought..and satan and his angels fought...angels=messengers/ministering

  spirits

   the accusor of the brethern..that accuses them day and night before God..was cast down........rejoice ye heavens and ye

that dwell in them...woe to earth and the sea..the devil has come down to you and knows his times is short

  satan becomes wrathful to have left his 'high' position in heaven to accuse the brothers day and night before God.......

   demonic madness goes forth across the earth..to steal kill and destroy


   Psalms93;3   THE SEAS HAVE LIFTED UP O'LORD,THE SEAS HAVE LIFTED UP THEIR VOICE; THE SEAS HAVE LIFTED

UP THEIR POUNDING WAVES.  MIGHTIER THEN THE THUNDER OF THE GREAT WATERS,MIGHTIER THE BREAKERS OF

THE SEA- THE LORD ON HIGH IS MIGHTY

[sheila]

Guises...God instructed not to make any image of things in heaven and earth to bow down to.Exodus 20;4

  [idol].. sinful misrepresentations of God.  Father is teaching us through good/evil contrast.  God is spirit..the negative contrast

  aadversary is also spirit.  Spirit can take any form it chooses..as a man of God/man of sin..the spirit of God can speak

through a donkey,angel,man. the spirit of satan can speak through a beast,angel or man.  Look! get behind e satan..spoken to

Peter[because ye speak of the things of men not God]   who do you say I am,Peter? you are the Christ,the son of the living God!

  Bllessed are thou Peter..for flesh and blood did not reveal this to you..but the Father in Heaven[spoken from the spirit of God]

  when the flesh speaks..it speaks from the spirit of sin in it.  Mark 1;23-25...it speaks doctrines of men to invalidate the

commands of God[surely ye will not die,for God knows in the day ye eat of it ye shall be like God,knowing good and evil]


    Now, the WORDof God come inflesh..and God said..hear ye Him.......

[donken]

Hi.  The war is really the war in "our heaven" our spirit.  Christ and the enmity to Christ are in man.  Jesus on the cross overcame the enmity and made of his flesh and the Life of God, one new man, Jesus CHRIST the son.  The spirit of man does not know the things of the Spirit of God.  That is an enmity there.

When God is "king" there is no resistance, no rebellion.  The story of Revelation 12 is a parable and a physical understanding of these things will not revea the spiritual truth of that scripture.  I am sure, if you are a Christian for a while, you have had some ot the battles of that war "in you".  Nothing wrong with that because that battle has to be enjoined by every Christian as we grow on to Spiritual maturity in Jesus Christ.   The picture of it taking place in heaven is simply spiritual, in a spiritual place.

God bless, ken

[ed]

Great answers.

Gives me a new appreciation for spiritual warfare.

Looking back over the decades of my life in Christ, each battle has brought me closer to where I am now.  We have an exciting life in Christ.

As always I am humbled to receive the abundance of the light of those that are attracted to this site.

:thumbsup:

[sheila]

there is man's 'expierence' of the struggle..between the 'forces' active on/in him..and the actual 'spirits' themselves.

    Jacob wrestled all night. when a man casts ut the spirit of rebellin against God in his mind/thoughts/heaven...they are

  cast to the earth[our flesh] since they can not accuse our heaven[mind no longer at enmity/willing] the weakness of the flesh

  becomes the target=pursue the woman...fight against the camp of the city He loves.......the serpent spews out floods[of good-

for nothing me[a]n[of sin] to cause the woman to be washed away..but theyforget..the wman's 'head' is above the waters....

   the earth[flesh] helps the woman and opens it mouth and swallows up the water[heart of flesh/confess sins/forgiveness]

  and fire comes down from heaven and accepts this[like Elijah'ssacrifice accepted by fire[spirit of God]

    Jesus at His appearing does away with the man of sin at the breath of His coming..and consumes.  For love is as strong

as death..it's jealousy as unyeilding as the grave..it burns like blazing fire,like a mighty flame. Many waters can not

quenchlove..rivers can not wash it away.

   Rev 20  satans doom...you are as good as a dead man for you have another man's wife[see Abraham,Sarah,Rebecca/Isaac]

  Gen ch20 and ch 26.......  Gen 20;16  a thousand shekels of silver..to cover the offense..and SOS 8;12  but my own

vineyard is mine to give...the 1000 shekels are for you,O'Solomon.

]

[micah7:9]

Hi.  The war is really the war in "our heaven" our spirit.  Christ and the enmity to Christ are in man.  Jesus on the cross overcame the enmity and made of his flesh and the Life of God, one new man, Jesus CHRIST the son.  The spirit of man does not know the things of the Spirit of God.  That is an enmity there.

When God is "king" there is no resistance, no rebellion.  The story of Revelation 12 is a parable and a physical understanding of these things will not revea the spiritual truth of that scripture.  I am sure, if you are a Christian for a while, you have had some ot the battles of that war "in you".  Nothing wrong with that because that battle has to be enjoined by every Christian as we grow on to Spiritual maturity in Jesus Christ.   The picture of it taking place in heaven is simply spiritual, in a spiritual place.

God bless, ken

:dsunny:

[joyfilledforgivensinner]

Looking back over the decades of my life in Christ, each battle has brought me closer to where I am now.  We have an exciting life in Christ.

Ed:  What a huge blessing to be able to say "DECADES of my life in Christ...an EXCITING life in Christ."

A scripture that tells us why our life in Christ is an exciting life.

John 10:10 (AMP)
The thief comes only in order to steal and kill and destroy.  I CAME THAT THEY MAY HAVE AND ENJOY LIFE, AND HAVE IT IN ABUNDANCE (TO THE FULL, TILL IT OVERFLOWS.) 

John 10:10 NLT
The thief's purpose is to steal and kill and destroy.  My purpose is to give them a rich and satisfying life. 



Jamieson-Fausset-Brown commentary:
"I am come that they might have life, and ... more abundantly:  not merely to preserve but impart LIFE, and communicate it in rich and unfailing exuberance.  What a claim!  Yet it is only an echo of all His teaching; and He Who uttered these and like words must be either a blasphemer, all worthy of the death He died, or "God with us" -- there can be no middle course."

[donken]

At the cross,  Jesus Christ destroyed the enmity.  That enmity is between the lusts of the flesh body and the lusts of the Spirit of God, both being with Jesus.

He made of the two, His flesh body and the Spirit of God giving eternal life to His Body by subduing the enmity between the lusts of the flesh and the Spirit of God, bringing and keeping HIS body in agreement with God the Father in Him, the Holy Spirit, Eternal life.   God is Spirit and God is invisible scripture says.  God is LIFE, the Spirit of Life that gives all other living things existence through being alive... LIFE.

Gen_3:15  And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Luk_23:12  And the same day Pilate and Herod were made friends together: for before they were at enmity between themselves.
Rom_8:7  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Eph_2:15  Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph_2:16  And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Jas_4:4  Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Ken

[DanielB]

It probably depends on how you define the word "war". I would say a conflict against God would be too one-sided to be considered a war. To me that would be like every human on earth against an gnat and calling that a war. I would consider the rebellion more like a child's tantrum. The rebels will go back to serving God eventually. "(In Darth Vader voice)They don't know the power of the good side"  :winkgrin:

[donken]

Yes, the "war" is about tantrums and is like drug addictions and the drive to do things that will get our addictions satisfied in any manner possible.  We not these things in the world include seeking fame, self aggrandizement in a manner that says "I" am greater than, better than, better looking than, etc. others.  As if that was the most important thing.  Athletes etc. who are worshiped and who parents want their children to be because of money and notoriety and so on.  These are the things the worldliness in man says are worth having or getting and if we do not or can not have them, depression and worthlessness is the result.   This is the blindness that can not see Jesus Christ as being the peace we seek, but of course, this would only in the seeing that is wisdom, the wisdom of and from God.

The law of sin in our members is really only the childishness of the Sons when they are children and what has happened over the centuries is that childishness in Christianity has passed itself off as if it was maturity.  The belief in spiritual entities that are evil and against us from the OUTSIDE is not only a lie it is a lie about what God is like.  God never ever made any such thing like that in his life, never mind it ever being "in His domain".

When a baby is born that child is physically pre-destinated to become a human adult.  There are many things already IN THE CHILD that are an enemy against his ability and predestination to become an adult.   These things have to be overcome in order for the child to become a human adult physically, including what we call human maturity and good manners for a human adult.  The baby is full of darkness.  By that I mean, a lack of experience and knowledge.  In the world there is what passes for knowledge, but it is very often a lie that is believed, or an incomplete understanding of many things.  The child has to have the worldly knowledge of their parents and their parents ideas of good manner and education and so on given to the baby over a long human period of time and the baby as he grows must accept or take it in and OWN IT as part of who that baby is as an adult.

This is what growing in Chirst Jesus is for mankind in a spiritual growth and we are now at the fulfillment of that which we have been collectively predestinated to be IN CHRIST JESUS in this world on this planet.  The mature Lord of the universe to put all in order according to the way of life without death.

Some of us by chance have some things we can call addictions {worldly lusts and desires and mindsets} that are stronger in some than in others.  This is simply and often a determination of genetic inheritance or very self centered teaching from parents and teachers who are prejudiced against something personally without benefit or from bad experiences they think are the way all things are accomplished by man. 

Today is the DAY OF THE LORD, in the aspect of the DAY meaning the time of actually seeing all things, both good and bad, correctly.  But it is a spiritual understanding of what the drive of each is, whether for good or for evil.  We are now going to learn to choose the good and refuse the evil.  This is the day of the judgment of God to us as Christians as we SEE these things properly and receive God's wisdom as our judgment.  In saying that I want to remind us about the sign of Jonah and if we as Christians experience some times of inner defeat or darkness of mood, know trhat it is of our own old man in us and do not let it cause you to do things in anger or any other mood as a rebellion against what YOU KNOW is God's desire for you to do.  WE learn in this way also but we do not have to learn that way.  The "god' we may get for a time is "our own ways upon us" spiritually to see just what we "WERE" like.

God bless, ken