Please Help With Rebuttal!

[JIFE]

Hello everyone...

I am what you would call a "universalist hopeful".  I have my many doubts about ET and am very hopeful that one day everyone's salvation will be worked out, but there's still a nagging fear in me that ET may be true.  Anyway, I usually just browse this forum for information, but after reading a discussion about original sin, I came across an article that denies the concept of original sin as well as universal salvation. This article was very troubling for me and I was hoping you guys could provide a rebuttal or just your opinions on this particular excerpt of the article in question.  I won't be able to reply to any posts tonight as I have to be to work early in the morning, but will be back tomorrow afternoon.  Thanks for you help and God bless!

P.S. I apologize if I'm breaking any forum rules by posting this link.. It's just late and I'm hoping I can get an answer to this soon because I can't stand the thought of ET really being true.  :sigh:

Excerpt:
(for full article, see: http://www.gospeltruth.net/OS100bibleverses.htm)
Sixth Proof-text Examined
6. Rom. 5:12, 18-19:
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned...Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

This passage is supposed to teach that all men are born sinners, and born under the condemnation and wrath of God because of Adam's transgression.
But this passage does not teach that men are born sinners. It does not teach that they are born under the condemnation and wrath of God. It does not teach that they inherit a sinful nature from Adam. It does not teach that sin is transmitted physically or any other way from Adam to his descendants. It does not teach that the sin of Adam was imputed to his descendants. And it does not teach that men have sinned "in Adam." On the contrary, Romans 5:14 teaches that Adam's descendants did not sin "in him."
"Them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression." Romans 5:14
The fact that Paul says there was a body of people "that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's sin" shows that Paul did not consider Adam's sin to be their sin.
It is true that Paul connects the sin of Adam with the sin and condemnation of all mankind. But it is also true that he connects the obedience of Christ with the salvation and righteousness of all mankind:
"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." Romans 5:18
"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." Romans 5:19
To interpret the phrase "made sinners" to mean that men are born sinners and become sinners involuntarily and necessarily by receiving a sinful nature from Adam, is a forced and inconsistent interpretation of this passage, for this passage not only says that all men are "made sinners" because of Adam's transgression, it also says that all men are "made righteous" by the obedience of Christ, and that the free gift of life "came upon all men" by Christ Jesus. So for the advocates of the doctrine of original sin to arbitrarily give to the phrases "made sinners" and "came upon all men" the meaning of physical force when these phrases refer to Adam's sin, without giving the same meaning of physical force when they refer to Christ's righteousness, is an example of a forced and inconsistent interpretation of this passage dictated by a prepossessed belief in the doctrine of original sin.
Paul does not affirm an involuntary, necessary, or irresistible connection between either the sin of Adam and mankind or the righteousness of Christ and mankind. Otherwise, Romans 5:18 would teach the universal salvation of mankind:
"The free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." Romans 5:18
We know that universal salvation is not taught in the Bible. Men are not saved involuntarily, automatically, and necessarily because of the obedience of Christ. Nor are they "made sinners" involuntarily, automatically, and necessarily because of the transgression of Adam. But the context of Romans 5:12-21 (and the context of the whole Bible) shows that men are "made sinners" in the same way they are "made righteous," that is, voluntarily or willingly.

[bushy]

Hello everyone...

I am what you would call a "universalist hopeful".  I have my many doubts about ET and am very hopeful that one day everyone's salvation will be worked out, but there's still a nagging fear in me that ET may be true.  Anyway, I usually just browse this forum for information, but after reading a discussion about original sin, I came across an article that denies the concept of original sin as well as universal salvation. This article was very troubling for me and I was hoping you guys could provide a rebuttal or just your opinions on this particular excerpt of the article in question.  I won't be able to reply to any posts tonight as I have to be to work early in the morning, but will be back tomorrow afternoon.  Thanks for you help and God bless!

P.S. I apologize if I'm breaking any forum rules by posting this link.. It's just late and I'm hoping I can get an answer to this soon because I can't stand the thought of ET really being true.  :sigh:

Excerpt:
(for full article, see: http://www.gospeltruth.net/OS100bibleverses.htm)
Sixth Proof-text Examined
6. Rom. 5:12, 18-19:
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned...Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

This passage is supposed to teach that all men are born sinners, and born under the condemnation and wrath of God because of Adam's transgression.

I don't think it is important to know if we are sinners because of Adam or just because we have sinned. Either way 'All have sinned'. But verse 12 does say sin entered the world because of Adam and spread to all men.


But this passage does not teach that men are born sinners. It does not teach that they are born under the condemnation and wrath of God. It does not teach that they inherit a sinful nature from Adam. It does not teach that sin is transmitted physically or any other way from Adam to his descendants. It does not teach that the sin of Adam was imputed to his descendants. And it does not teach that men have sinned "in Adam." On the contrary, Romans 5:14 teaches that Adam's descendants did not sin "in him."
"Them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression." Romans 5:14
The fact that Paul says there was a body of people "that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's sin" shows that Paul did not consider Adam's sin to be their sin.
It is true that Paul connects the sin of Adam with the sin and condemnation of all mankind. But it is also true that he connects the obedience of Christ with the salvation and righteousness of all mankind:
"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." Romans 5:18
"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." Romans 5:19
To interpret the phrase "made sinners" to mean that men are born sinners and become sinners involuntarily and necessarily by receiving a sinful nature from Adam, is a forced and inconsistent interpretation of this passage, for this passage not only says that all men are "made sinners" because of Adam's transgression, it also says that all men are "made righteous" by the obedience of Christ, and that the free gift of life "came upon all men" by Christ Jesus. So for the advocates of the doctrine of original sin to arbitrarily give to the phrases "made sinners" and "came upon all men" the meaning of physical force when these phrases refer to Adam's sin, without giving the same meaning of physical force when they refer to Christ's righteousness, is an example of a forced and inconsistent interpretation of this passage dictated by a prepossessed belief in the doctrine of original sin.

I wouldn't know if it was forced or free will but the result is the same. And I would for sure give the same meaning when comparing to Christ's righteousness.


Paul does not affirm an involuntary, necessary, or irresistible connection between either the sin of Adam and mankind or the righteousness of Christ and mankind. Otherwise, Romans 5:18 would teach the universal salvation of mankind:

It sure does. It is the first verse I blundered into that totally convinced me of the fact that all would be saved because I believed exactly what it says. And after that there were many others and I'm still finding more.


"The free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." Romans 5:18
We know that universal salvation is not taught in the Bible. Of course it is for anyone who will just believe what it says. Another verse that says the same thing, 1 Cor. 15:22 'For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.'   Men are not saved involuntarily, automatically, and necessarily because of the obedience of Christ. Nor are they "made sinners" involuntarily, automatically, and necessarily because of the transgression of Adam. But the context of Romans 5:12-21 (and the context of the whole Bible) shows that men are "made sinners" in the same way they are "made righteous," that is, voluntarily or willingly.

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." Romans 5:19
This is an exact comparison of Adam and Christ. How can that be if by one man's disobedience 100% were made sinners, and by the obedience of one about 5% or so will be made righteous?

[WhiteWings]

An anti-UR article, but still a good read I think.
http://www.michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedBible/Romans%20512%20Inherited%20Sin%20and%20Universalism.pdf

[ed]

Original sin is a theological concept.   I too find things in the word that do not add up to mankind being wretched as a rule.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

If man is wretched and no good where did "the will" to do good come from?

I wrestled with self hate as a young man, and it was love that delivered me.  I found the love in the Bible and person of Christ Jesus.  When I sought, I found.  When I knocked the door was opened.  Love and ET are apposed to one another.  God who is love and omnipresent could not allow ET.

Annihilation is a trickier bird.  God could mercifully annihilate.  Annihilation questions the purpose of God though.  If God is going to raise every man to judge and then annihilate them, this makes God a killer.  "The last enemy that will be destroyed is death".  Death gets no victory at all whatsoever.
Of the three doctrines, ET, Annihilation, and UR, UR is the better.

Theological concepts seem to apply in one sense and miss in another.  There is another study that would go along well with this.  It is "seed".  I enjoyed this article on the topic and think it could help with the understanding of God's plan in Christ.
The Seed In Every Man
By J. Preston Eby
http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/seed.htm

[rrich7]

In reference to the above, I use the phrase, "the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak". I wouldn't sa humans are "wretched", however we are all born into sin (if any man says he is without it, he is a liar). It is in our part of our fleshy nature, our minds cause us to sin daily. Some will say sin is the act, but Jesus says if a man even lusts after a woman he commits adultery. Being sinless is impossible in this human life, for saints & sinners alike. However God will change that it time. 

So many people stumble through life looking for answers or our purpose, always having a "hole" in their heart or spirit.

I think our spirits long for God our creator & Daddy, but until he opens our eyes to Him we stumble blindly. It is not by our own faith that we find Him, but by His grace & love. He hardens hearts, he softens them, he closes eyes & he opens them.

It's very easy to take on what other people say when it sounds convincing, but remember hitler was a convincing speaker too. As are many cult leaders. In a world full of conspiracy theories & people giving their not so educated, not so researched opinions, we must learn to do the research ourselves. Trust God & ask Him for guidance & understanding & in His time He will lead you to the answers.

Coming from the ET background initially is difficult, I'm still in this phase cuz after years of fearing it, the idea that it may possibly exist still tugs at my soul.

Remember who is the author of confusion ! & Trust God, He has perfect timing :)

[rrich7]

In accordance with Julie, our current state is all part of Gods plan.

In accordance with the post, the writer if this article seems to be trying to bend a very simple scripture to make it fit his belief. How he is coming to the conclusion he is with the words that are there is beyond me.

[JIFE]

Hey guys,

Thanks for the replies!  I got home later than expected and didn't have a chance to read them, so I will do that right now. 

[GerWat]

My God Ed!  This article http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/seed.htm gos on forever.  How about a synopsis?

[UniversalSceptic]

The author of the article needs to look at the verses that explicitly say "ALL have fallen short of the glory of God" and the verse that says "Their is none that do good, no, not one. Their is no way to twist that scripture. Also that part where he claims that the entire bible is written in context of that one verse is a pretty bold and incorrect statement to make.

[ed]

That wonderful prayer Jesus taught His disciples, which we call The Lord's Prayer, begins with the words, "Our Father which art in heaven."  Until men recognize by the illumination that the Spirit brings who their Father is they remain lost and dying in the dense darkness of the carnal mind.  Spiritually, they are no different than the adopted child who has never been told he is adopted and has no concept of who his biological parents truly are or where he came from.  Our Father is not the one who gave us our physical life in the womb of our earthly mother.  The only reason Jesus would tell the vast throng gathered around Him, "Call no man your father upon the earth, for ONE IS YOUR FATHER, which is in heaven," is that we all must recognize that our life did not begin with our physical birth.  Our true Father is not a man upon earth, but our Father who is in heaven!  Can we not see by this that our life did not begin on earth — it began in heaven!  Nothing could be plainer than this.  Over and over again Jesus taught the multitudes about their "heavenly Father."  Just look up the word "father" in Strong's Concordance and see how many times in the four Gospels Jesus told the people that God was their Father!  Once we know who and where our Father is it is easy to understand where our life began and from whence we came.   Our birth, our beginnings were with God!   God is our Father.  Aren't you glad!
http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/seed.htm

One of the greatest needs for understanding among believers is in this area of comprehending the relationship of all men to God.  Paul expressed it on Mars Hill, saying, “The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in shrines made by man, nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives TO ALL MEN life and breath (spirit) and everything.  And He made from one every nation of men to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their habitation, that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel after Him and find Him.  Yet HE IS NOT FAR FROM EACH ONE OF US, for in Him we live and move and have our being…for we are indeed His offspring.  Being then God’s offspring, we ought not to think that the Deity is like gold, or silver, or stone, a representation by the art and imagination of man” (Acts 17:24-29).  God’s offspring!   And this was spoken to Greeks who not only knew nothing of Jesus Christ, but had no awareness of the one God.
http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/seed.htm

The grandest of all truths is that CHRIST IS THE IMAGE OF GOD! If you want to know what God had in mind when He said, "Let us make man in our image, and after our likeness," you have only to look at Jesus Christ.
http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/seed.htm

I really like this one the value of man's life.

This divine potential lies in the spirit of every man and shows the value of man’s life. Some do not believe that the seed of God abides in every man, but I do not hesitate to tell you that every man has within him a spirit as well as a soul and a body, and the spirit of every man originated with God and came out of God. If every man is spirit, soul, and body, then where else did man’s spirit come from? Are you going to tell me it came from the devil? When the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us we learned the true dignity of man. The wonder is not that God could stoop so low but that man was created so high! It was because of the value of man’s life that Jesus came and took our nature. The sinless Son of man reveals indeed what a fall man has suffered, but shows what a destiny is his, when once the image of his Creator has been restored. Why lift a sot from his gutter to care for him and rehabilitate him and bring him to God? The reason is that man has in him some touch of the eternal and therefore must be saved; and some ultimate tide of compassion moves us to save him! His salvation is not merely from his drink, from his lust, from his sin and bondage and hell; it is salvation unto all his awesome potential as a child of the Father in heaven! It is this divine value of man’s life that brought Jesus from the portals of glory to save him! Is this not what Jesus’ parable of the Prodigal Son teaches us? It was a son that the father saw afar off, and ran and fell upon his neck and kissed him and killed the fatted calf and put shoes and a robe upon him and called all his kingdom to feast and rejoice with him. His son had come home! Man is the offspring of God and is meant to be the head of creation. THAT IS THE VALUE OF MAN’S LIFE!
http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/seed.htm

Very exciting!

It would do us all a world of good to take inventory of our attitudes — how we see men. I fear that we would be both surprised and disturbed to see how often we view men out of our carnal minds rather than with the eyes of our heavenly Father — the Prodigal’s Father! Oh mystery of mysteries! Jesus went to the cross not only to take away our sins, He went there for the good in man, to redeem it and restore it into the image and likeness of God. The deepest mystery of all is that God is multiplying Himself in man, and is bringing Himself into a new dimension. There is a MAN seated upon the highest throne of heaven. Not an angel, not a cherub, and not even merely a spirit — but a MAN! That man is still clothed in the body that walked along the shores of Galilee, for the cave of Joseph of Arimathea is empty, although that body has been spiritualized by the power of incorruptible life.
http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/seed.htm

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I think with UR more than perhaps any other subject, a person's heart has to be open to receive it from GOD, because the alternative has been so deeply implanted down thru so many generations. Add to that the many scriptures that were never properly studied out, and it becomes a real rock of offense to many.

I know it took HIM to tell me personally before I fully believed it, and I didn't even grow up in church having hellfire pounded into me weekly, and it still just seemed too good to be true. But they first have to believe Moses and the prophets (a few hundred witnesses/scriptures), before they can believe One who rose from the dead (receive it from the Spirit).

For these reasons, I think reasoning and debating are almost certainly futile without a lot of prayer for the individual's heart to be softened towards God. Also, there is a time and a season for all things. These things being considered, all you can do is plant seed and wait for God to give the increase. My  :2c: Blessings....

[ed]

The author of the article needs to look at the verses that explicitly say "ALL have fallen short of the glory of God" and the verse that says "Their is none that do good, no, not one. Their is no way to twist that scripture. Also that part where he claims that the entire bible is written in context of that one verse is a pretty bold and incorrect statement to make.

Yes we all fall short of the glory of God.  That is not to say that the Glory of God is not in all of us.  It is there.

You don't have to twist scripture to see that none of us are good, but we have good in us.  We all have God in us.   It is truly beautiful.  Body, soul, and Spirit.  There is no good thing in our flesh.............But our Spirit is from God. "To will is present with me".

You can hold to the doctrines that make mankind "totally depraved", but don't miss the part where there is surly something there to love.  Each and every one.

[UniversalSceptic]

The author of the article needs to look at the verses that explicitly say "ALL have fallen short of the glory of God" and the verse that says "Their is none that do good, no, not one. Their is no way to twist that scripture. Also that part where he claims that the entire bible is written in context of that one verse is a pretty bold and incorrect statement to make.

Yes we all fall short of the glory of God.  That is not to say that the Glory of God is not in all of us.  It is there.

You don't have to twist scripture to see that none of us are good, but we have good in us.  We hall have God in us.   It is truly beautiful.  Body, soul, and Spirit.  There is no good thing in our flesh.............But our Spirit is from God. "To will is present with me".

You can hold to the doctrines that make mankind "totally depraved", but don't miss the part where their is surly something there to love.  Each and every one.

I was just remembering those off the top of my head, but the point I was making was that the author's claims contradict those scriptures. Yes we all have good in is, but none of us do good all the time and they say that yes it is possible to go without sinning. These verses say it isn't possible. Only god can go without sinning. We have the potential to not sin, but the flesh won't allow it. We all miss the
The way he interprets Romans 5:14. still contradicts this scripture: If any man believes he is without  sin he is a liar.

[ed]

I was just remembering those off the top of my head, but the point I was making was that the author's claims contradict those scriptures. Yes we all have good in is, but none of us do good all the time and they say that yes it is possible to go without sinning. These verses say it isn't possible. Only god can go without sinning. We have the potential to not sin, but the flesh won't allow it. We all miss the
The way he interprets Romans 5:14. still contradicts this scripture: If any man believes he is without  sin he is a liar.

I did not notice.  Can you point me to the paragraph? 

I've only read about half of the article.  As a whole I've really enjoyed it.  Wish I had more time to read the whole thing.

:Peace2: UniversalSceptic

[Graph1159]

But the context of Romans 5:12-21 (and the context of the whole Bible) shows that men are "made sinners" in the same way they are "made righteous," that is, voluntarily or willingly.

In Romans 9, Paul writes:

9:16 - So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

9:18-21 - Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will? But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

11:32 - For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

Samuel

[UniversalSceptic]

I was just remembering those off the top of my head, but the point I was making was that the author's claims contradict those scriptures. Yes we all have good in is, but none of us do good all the time and they say that yes it is possible to go without sinning. These verses say it isn't possible. Only god can go without sinning. We have the potential to not sin, but the flesh won't allow it. We all miss the
The way he interprets Romans 5:14. still contradicts this scripture: If any man believes he is without  sin he is a liar.

I did not notice.  Can you point me to the paragraph? 

I've only read about half of the article.  As a whole I've really enjoyed it.  Wish I had more time to read the whole thing.

:Peace2: UniversalSceptic

"Them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression." Romans 5:14. This part sums up the rest perfectly: To interpret the phrase "made sinners" to mean that men are born sinners and become sinners involuntarily and necessarily by receiving a sinful nature from Adam, is a forced and inconsistent interpretation of this passage, for this passage not only says that all men are "made sinners" because of Adam's transgression, it also says that all men are "made righteous" by the obedience of Christ, and that the free gift of life "came upon all men" by Christ Jesus. So for the advocates of the doctrine of original sin to arbitrarily give to the phrases "made sinners" and "came upon all men" the meaning of physical force when these phrases refer to Adam's sin, without giving the same meaning of physical force when they refer to Christ's righteousness, is an example of a forced and inconsistent interpretation of this passage dictated by a prepossessed belief in the doctrine of original sin.

[ed]

"Them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression." Romans 5:14. This part sums up the rest perfectly: To interpret the phrase "made sinners" to mean that men are born sinners and become sinners involuntarily and necessarily by receiving a sinful nature from Adam, is a forced and inconsistent interpretation of this passage, for this passage not only says that all men are "made sinners" because of Adam's transgression, it also says that all men are "made righteous" by the obedience of Christ, and that the free gift of life "came upon all men" by Christ Jesus. So for the advocates of the doctrine of original sin to arbitrarily give to the phrases "made sinners" and "came upon all men" the meaning of physical force when these phrases refer to Adam's sin, without giving the same meaning of physical force when they refer to Christ's righteousness, is an example of a forced and inconsistent interpretation of this passage dictated by a prepossessed belief in the doctrine of original sin.

Thanks UnivsalSceptic.

I'm almost finished reading the full article.
Romans 5
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Reminded me of Romans 5:19.  The word many can be translated "the many".  All were made sinners and all are made righteous.

Romans 5:19 LEB
For just as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one, the many will be made righteous.

Romans 5:19 NAS
For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

See also NIV, NRS, DBY, TNIV, WNT, YLT.

The whole thing about the article is that we have God's seed in us.  That seed is Spirit.  When, by faith we trust in Christ, that seed comes alive in us.  Jesus talked about rivers of water flowing from within those that believe.  You and me are blessed to be enjoying the flow now.  The many will one day be included, for all are included in what Christ accomplished.  The many that fell are the same many that will be reconciled. 

We don't see it yet, but it is a spiritual reality.  Many go through life no knowing the union that they can have with Christ.  They are included, but don't know it yet.  One day they will.  This is the greatness of our faith, hope, and love.  This is how we can love as God loves.  God see's mankind through Christ.  Mankind sees God though Christ.

[UniversalSceptic]

"Them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression." Romans 5:14. This part sums up the rest perfectly: To interpret the phrase "made sinners" to mean that men are born sinners and become sinners involuntarily and necessarily by receiving a sinful nature from Adam, is a forced and inconsistent interpretation of this passage, for this passage not only says that all men are "made sinners" because of Adam's transgression, it also says that all men are "made righteous" by the obedience of Christ, and that the free gift of life "came upon all men" by Christ Jesus. So for the advocates of the doctrine of original sin to arbitrarily give to the phrases "made sinners" and "came upon all men" the meaning of physical force when these phrases refer to Adam's sin, without giving the same meaning of physical force when they refer to Christ's righteousness, is an example of a forced and inconsistent interpretation of this passage dictated by a prepossessed belief in the doctrine of original sin.

Thanks UnivsalSceptic.

I'm almost finished reading the full article.
Romans 5
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Reminded me of Romans 5:19.  The word many can be translated "the many".  All were made sinners and all are made righteous.

Romans 5:19 LEB
For just as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one, the many will be made righteous.

Romans 5:19 NAS
For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

See also NIV, NRS, DBY, TNIV, WNT, YLT.

The whole thing about the article is that we have God's seed in us.  That seed is Spirit.  When, by faith we trust in Christ, that seed comes alive in us.  Jesus talked about rivers of water flowing from within those that believe.  You and me are blessed to be enjoying the flow now.  The many will one day be included, for all are included in what Christ accomplished.  The many that fell are the same many that will be reconciled. 

We don't see it yet, but it is a spiritual reality.  Many go through life no knowing the union that they can have with Christ.  They are included, but don't know it yet.  One day they will.  This is the greatness of our faith, hope, and love.  This is how we can love as God loves.  God see's mankind through Christ.  Mankind sees God though Christ.

So do you agree with his assertions on Romans 5:14

[ed]

So do you agree with his assertions on Romans 5:14

Them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression." Romans 5:14. This part sums up the rest perfectly: To interpret the phrase "made sinners" to mean that men are born sinners and become sinners involuntarily and necessarily by receiving a sinful nature from Adam, is a forced and inconsistent interpretation of this passage, for this passage not only says that all men are "made sinners" because of Adam's transgression, it also says that all men are "made righteous" by the obedience of Christ, and that the free gift of life "came upon all men" by Christ Jesus. So for the advocates of the doctrine of original sin to arbitrarily give to the phrases "made sinners" and "came upon all men" the meaning of physical force when these phrases refer to Adam's sin, without giving the same meaning of physical force when they refer to Christ's righteousness, is an example of a forced and inconsistent interpretation of this passage dictated by a prepossessed belief in the doctrine of original sin."

I like the way he says it.

I'm not sure that I am capable of agreeing or disagreeing with just the one paragraph.

For me it is a maybe.  I'd do not fully understand what it means.

It seems to me that we have both the capacity to sin naturally and to not sin by the spirit.  All of us have the pride of man.  We all to a degree stand against God.  It sure does seem to be part of our nature.  The natural way of man.  At the same time we are taught to follow God, Christ, spirit, love and can choose to do so.

That is the point of the article.  The purpose is to show the two as being within the realm of our choice.  We have the natural man who chooses the carnal, and we have the spirit man who chooses life through our relationship with God.  We are made alive in Christ.

[UniversalSceptic]

So do you agree with his assertions on Romans 5:14

Them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression." Romans 5:14. This part sums up the rest perfectly: To interpret the phrase "made sinners" to mean that men are born sinners and become sinners involuntarily and necessarily by receiving a sinful nature from Adam, is a forced and inconsistent interpretation of this passage, for this passage not only says that all men are "made sinners" because of Adam's transgression, it also says that all men are "made righteous" by the obedience of Christ, and that the free gift of life "came upon all men" by Christ Jesus. So for the advocates of the doctrine of original sin to arbitrarily give to the phrases "made sinners" and "came upon all men" the meaning of physical force when these phrases refer to Adam's sin, without giving the same meaning of physical force when they refer to Christ's righteousness, is an example of a forced and inconsistent interpretation of this passage dictated by a prepossessed belief in the doctrine of original sin."

I like the way he says it.

I'm not sure that I am capable of agreeing or disagreeing with just the one paragraph.

For me it is a maybe.  I'd do not fully understand what it means.

It seems to me that we have both the capacity to sin naturally and to not sin by the spirit.  All of us have the pride of man.  We all to a degree stand against God.  It sure does seem to be part of our nature.  The natural way of man.  At the same time we are taught to follow God, Christ, spirit, love and can choose to do so.

That is the point of the article.  The purpose is to show the two as being within the realm of our choice.  We have the natural man who chooses the carnal, and we have the spirit man who chooses life through our relationship with God.  We are made alive in Christ.

His whole reason for writing that article was to say original sin doesn't exist. He says they sin by choice and implies that we could stop sinning if we wants to. Furthermore, he clearly states we weren't made sinners by Adam's transgression or are we saved necessarily because of Christ obedience He isn't a universalist because he says as if it if fact "We know universal salvation is not supported by the bible".

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: How's this for original sin? GOD called THEIR name Adam. Adam named her Eve, like one of the beasts of the field.  :eek:

[UniversalSceptic]

:cloud9: How's this for original sin? GOD called THEIR name Adam. Adam named her Eve, like one of the beasts of the field.  :eek:

I don't quite follow Cardinal. Also, I read the full article to gain a better understanding. The name of the full article is him giving over 100 verses (I forget the exact number) that prove, at least in his mind, that Original Sin is not a biblical concept.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: God said they were one, Adam said they were separate. From what I see, that's a sin.

He told Israel, "Hear O Israel, the Lord thy God is ONE God." He told them that because He wanted them to realize that He had made them to be one with Himself, as a bride is to her husband. By doing that, they denied themselves, and having denied themselves, they ceased to exist as a nation for a time.

Disagreeing with God is never a good idea.  :laughing7: Blessings....

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: There's learning line upon line, and there's learning principles. Principles reveal the scriptures heart, and in so doing reveal other scriptures that contain the same principle.

Once a principle is revealed, you can follow it from Genesis to Revelation. The wording may change, but the principle does not. A first principle to track would be, for instance, God separates the light from the darkness. That principle runs from Genesis to Revelation, but you won't find it worded exactly the same as it was in Genesis, every time.

Look up the acronym "PARDES", if you want a clearer picture of what I'm saying here. Blessings....

PS. Mt. Sinai was a wedding contract/ketubah.

[Seth]

I agree with that, about the principle thing. In fact if I were to to take a principle that I believe runs through the entire Bible from beginning to end, it would be "let us make man in our image." azan let God make man in our image not let man make himself a voluntary early in her a message. And, that's the entire point of the New Covenant that man needs God because man is incapable of making him self righteous. That's what the whole gift of the Holy Spirit is about to change man's nature from "carnal sold into sin" to freedom from sin.

I think the entire Bible is about that. And referring to the OP, I think it's a weak argument against universal salvation to use the concept of sin as a voluntary act because it suggests that God is not able to bring about voluntary acts to fill his plans. an argument like that must ignore a multitude of examples in the Bible where God is able to affect the actions of man through the subtlety of his invisible hand in order to get his plans fulfilled. Pauls main point in romans 5 is what will happen. By one man many were made sinners. By one man many shall be made righteous. It's a prophecy which cannot be set aside by any definition of original sin.

As in Adam all die...even so (in like manner) IN CHRIST shall all be made alive. Death came upon all due to one man's disobedience. The free gift came upon all due to one man's obedience.