Second death, originally from the Aramaic targums.

[gregoryfl]

The term 'second death' is found 4 times in the book of Revelation. It is not found anywhere else in either the first century writings or the tanach. However, it is found in the Aramaic targums, which are a sort of expanded commentary on scripture written after the Babylonian exile. What I find interesting is this passage where the exact same phrase found in the Aramaic Revelation is used in Isaiah, מוֹתָא תִניָנָא, in expounding on the death from which a covering יְכֻפַּר is made for the one dying this death.

And revealed it hath been in mine ears, By Jehovah of Hosts: Not pardoned is this iniquity to you, Till ye die, said the Lord, Jehovah of Hosts.

(Isa 22:14 YLT)


Here is the targum of the passage:

אְמַר נְבִיָא בְאוּדנַי הְוֵיתִי שָמַע כַד אִתגְזַרַת דָא מִן קְֹדָם יוי צְבָאוֹת אִם יִשתְבֵיק חוּבָא הָדֵין לְכוֹן עַד דִתמוּתוּן מוֹתָא תִניָנָא אְמַר יוי אְלֹהִים צְבָאוֹת׃

The underlined words are the phrase 'second death', as a commentary on the text.

It is saying that this iniquity (as seen in the previous verses) will not be pardoned for them until they die the second death. It appears as though this death is not the continuation of death, but the undoing of it.  :banana:

Quite a different understanding that the ancient Hebrews had about this than is commonly taught today. :) Another affirmation for the reconciliation of all things.

Ronen

[micah7:9]

Well that certainly got a GLORYshout oughta me! Thank you Lord and Ronen too. :dsunny:

[Seth]

It is saying that this iniquity (as seen in the previous verses) will not be pardoned for them until they die the second death.

:thumbsup:

I actually see it similarly, in fact, I believe everyone has been in a kind of second death, in Adam before being brought to life in Christ. So I see what you are saying as filtered through Christ's parables, going through a death unto forgiveness and "killing the fatted calf" - dying to the beast - unto life:

Luke 15
14 Now when he had spent everything, a severe famine occurred in that country, and he (the prodigal son) began to be impoverished. 15 So he went and hired himself out to one of the citizens of that country, and he sent him into his fields to feed swine. 16 And he would have gladly filled his stomach with the pods that the swine were eating, and no one was giving anything to him. 17 But when he came to his senses, he said, 'How many of my father's hired men have more than enough bread, but I am dying here with hunger!

18 I will get up and go to my father, and will say to him, "Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in your sight; 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me as one of your hired men."'

21 And the son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight; I am no longer worthy to be called your son.' 22 But the father said to his slaves, 'Quickly bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet; 23 and bring the fattened calf, kill it, and let us eat and celebrate; 24 for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.' And they began to celebrate.

Here is what I really love about this parable:

30 but when this son of yours came, who has devoured your wealth with prostitutes, you killed the fattened calf for him.' 31 And he said to him, 'Son, you have always been with me, and all that is mine is yours. 32 But we had to celebrate and rejoice, for this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live, and was lost and has been found.'"

The son devoured his father's wealth with prostitutes, but when the son repented, the father killed the fatted calf - he put the beast to death. I think that speaks of the carnal mind, the death OF death through repentance and the Spirit.

[sheila]

 :thumbsup:    Isaaih 22;19  I will depose you from your office and you will be ousted from your position.....typifying Judas

  son of perdition...Pharisees sadducees position in seat of Mose.s.   the same as wicked servant class that beat...and are

   given position of hypocrites/gnashing of teeth.........same as Saul who lost out to David...and Saul/changed to Paul types

   just as Saul spoke of himself typifying one born premature[before his time] knowing all Israel would be saved..but enter in last.

   first shall be laaast,last shall be first.......

[gregoryfl]

Thank you all for your additional comments. :)

Shalom,

Ronen

[micah7:9]

You are most welcome :dsunny: Your imput, informationm I feel was very helpful and informative. So to put it in a 30-40's vein "Gee it was swell!" :)

[marie glen]

...but we don't need extra biblical, and using them will only turn off listeners..

Matthew 12:32 (NKJV) -"Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come." this is my emphasis and point "age and age"..

```````````````````````````````````````````````````
"..unless you repent (pharisees) you will die in your sins"

"and the rest of the dead rose not until after the thousand years.." .."there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.." .."outer darkness.." Outside the kingdom, aka, Jesus... outer darkness, weeping and gnashing of teeth.. during when? obviously it's after the 2nd resurrection because the pharisees will be there.. and obviously it's before all things are made new..

at the end of judgment day of the 2nd resurrected, those arriving DOA, at the end of which/that 'day', those (still?) not believing will go to the 2nd death, the LOF..

:cloud9: if we did not choose, but were chosen and all done by God "born again by the will of God, not man" why would more extreeme measures be needed to bring the rest to repentance, than we who were chosen to come to Jesus during this life?

If the ancient Spring Holy Days fulfilled, thus prophesied Jesus' first advent, why not the Fall Holy Days prophecy the long second advent? (and three peaks of?) [Trumpets, Day Of Atonement, & Tabernacles "God will now tabernacle with man" rev 21:5]

trumpets, 10 days later was day of atonement, and then 5 days later was tabernacles - if the 10 days represents the 1000 yrs, then what the 5 days?? [hello? why can't anyone see this? "no one at first desires new wine, but the old"/the familiar? seems logical and evident to me - Spring Holy Days fulfilled by 1st advent; Fall Holy Days thus??]

and end of Rev 19 the false prophet and the (big) beast are thrown into the LOF are not people, but a belief (false prophet/teacher/teaching) and an institution of man (world beast/body of final days, man's last empire)

[marie glen]

P.S - in other words, the day of judgment for all those of the 2nd resurrection (who arrive DOA) = surprise! Day Of Atonement (DOA)

- isn't ThiS more in keeping with God's Holy Love nature? Perhaps some stubborn hold outs may need to be purified in the LOF as the 2nd death/nonlife, but even those who never ever even heard the gospel message?? a God who tortures? no! One who tortures merely for an age? no! If it's God's election, why more estreme measures needed for those not chosen during this life.. the onLy reason they aren't or weren't is because (imo) for a truth proving drama you need more than ONE character! Truth proving what is good from evil, aka, Life from death/non-life.. life is life. death is... death. no inhernet immortality!!! nonlife is death. "Hades" was a Greek dream (the realm of the dead is still the grave!)

the outer darkness of weeping and gnashing was the phrase Jesus used immediately following His telling the pharisees unless they repented they would "die in their sins" which so many take to mean "all bhope now lost"! but to die in your sins is merely to rise in your sins... then toss into LOF? why then "Judment Day"? if there's simply resurrection(2nd) and tossed to LOF? sorry, makes no sense..

(imo) outer darkness, weeping and gnashing of teeth = judgement day = 500 years "an age" "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit not forgiven in this age (now) nor in the age to come (when the 2nd resurrection are resurrected.. those not believing at the end of the Day of Judgment will go to the 2nd death.. no one else (imo)

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I see it this way. Hebrews 10 tells us the tabernacle of Moses is the pattern of heavenly or spiritual things/truths.

Two entrances in the Tabernacle pattern, with veils or curtains. The first, was to pass from outer court (water baptism realm) into the inner court realm (baptism of the Spirit realm) of the priesthood. You entered into this realm by passing thru 5 pillars/5 fold ministry hand of God.

This symbolizes rending the veil of our flesh (a type of death), to enter into the Spirit of Christ. This is realm of the Spirit doing the works via that 5 fold/ hand of God, ie. the Holy Ghost does the works.

But the rending of the second veil (which IS Christ our covering in this realm), brings us from the priesthood realm/inner court, to the Kingship realm/Holy of Holies. God the Father was IN CHRIST, reconciling all men unto Him.

This rending of a veil is also a type of death, it is the "death" of everything He has given us via His Son, who is Spirit, but is only for a season, because it's a test, the test of Abraham, the true circumcision of the heart, and Christ IS the first fruits offering. No other sacrifice will suffice. This veil must be rent to have the Father in full manifestation.

Looking at it from this viewpoint, you have prophet (outer court), priest (inner court), and King (Holy of Holies) = Melchisedek priesthood. And THIS second death, will not hurt those that pass the test, as the serpent that bit the hand of Paul (inner court/5 fold realm of priesthood/hand of God), was intended to show us.

The lesser must give way to the greater, that both might be glorified. My  :2c: Blessings....

[eaglesway]

Beautiful post. I agree with everything except perhaps the prophet, priest, king analogy, since Jesus was prophet, priest and king- as was David. It seems to me that since Jesus is our faithful high priest (Hebrews also) who has entered in once, for all, to make new and living way through the veil, that any who has their bodies washed with pure water(baptism/bronze laver, submission of will, death to this world) is able to walk straight into all three elements of the ministry of reconciliation- prophet(living word, sword of the spirit), priest(ministry of reconciliation), king(reign in life with Christ, overcome the world).

Perhaps I misunderstood what you were saying tho :o)

[Cardinal]

Beautiful post. I agree with everything except perhaps the prophet, priest, king analogy, since Jesus was prophet, priest and king- as was David. It seems to me that since Jesus is our faithful high priest (Hebrews also) who has entered in once, for all, to make new and living way through the veil, that any who has their bodies washed with pure water(baptism/bronze laver, submission of will, death to this world) is able to walk straight into all three elements of the ministry of reconciliation- prophet(living word, sword of the spirit), priest(ministry of reconciliation), king(reign in life with Christ, overcome the world).

Perhaps I misunderstood what you were saying tho :o)

:cloud9: I think I shared it on here the last time I was on here semi-regularly, about 2 years ago, and if so I share it again. I had a dream/vision of Him and He was moving thru the compartments of the Tabernacle really fast, CHANGING GARMENTS appropriate to the office each represented, really fast.

It may seem like a strange comment, but that's what came to me to say. Blessings....

[WhiteWings]

Being changed in a twinkling of an eye is a bit like changing garments. :Chinscratch:

Priests also minister to God in different garments than what they wear when minister to man.

How many compartments there are in the Tabernacle?

[Seth]

the outer darkness of weeping and gnashing was the phrase Jesus used immediately following His telling the pharisees unless they repented they would "die in their sins" which so many take to mean "all bhope now lost"! but to die in your sins is merely to rise in your sins... then toss into LOF? why then "Judment Day"? if there's simply resurrection(2nd) and tossed to LOF? sorry, makes no sense..

I don't take "die in your sins" to be physically to die in sins, but rather they were already dead, and dying, and would continue to be dead in their sins. I think this is why Jesus described the judgment as in that men loved the darkness and would not approach the light for fear their works would be exposed, saying that without faith in Christ, man was "judged already" (John 3.)

I believe people remain in that judgment until they hear the words "come all ye who are athirst and drink the water of life freely" and finally heed those words.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: @ WW.....Three....

[WhiteWings]

:cloud9: @ WW.....Three....

Does that include the main area? Got a drawing?

[eaglesway]

the outer darkness of weeping and gnashing was the phrase Jesus used immediately following His telling the pharisees unless they repented they would "die in their sins" which so many take to mean "all bhope now lost"! but to die in your sins is merely to rise in your sins... then toss into LOF? why then "Judment Day"? if there's simply resurrection(2nd) and tossed to LOF? sorry, makes no sense..

I don't take "die in your sins" to be physically to die in sins, but rather they were already dead, and dying, and would continue to be dead in their sins. I think this is why Jesus described the judgment as in that men loved the darkness and would not approach the light for fear their works would be exposed, saying that without faith in Christ, man was "judged already" (John 3.)

I believe people remain in that judgment until they hear the words "come all ye who are athirst and drink the water of life freely" and finally heed those words.

:thumbsup:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: As for me, I believe they did die in their sins, if they did not accept their Messiah. I also believe we do the same if we don't allow Him to clean the inside of the cup as well as the outside.

But He will in season visit the tomb we have created out of our stony hardened heart/Eve and roll the last stone away, whether we be in the body or out of it, it matters not, not one shall be lost, as He goes looking for the one lost sheep, because even death cannot separate us from the love of God. And we have this hope, as Paul said, are not as those that don't have that hope, because they don't know the saving power of Christ. :banana:

Praise the Lord of glory, He is the Door. Blessings....

[micah7:9]

Not trying to be critical or jump off the OP and comments but, I have been looking for this offering of Jesus,   "the outer darkness of weeping and gnashing was the phrase Jesus used immediately following His telling the pharisees unless they repented they would "die in their sins" (marie glen)and all I have found John 8:21 and 8:24 as well as Matt. 8:12 22:13 and 25:30 but I do not find the gnashing of teeth and die in your sins in the same texts together.
Joh 8:21  Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
Joh 8:24  I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Is there a difference with  Eph 2:5  Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Col 2:13  And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
:Chinscratch:

[eaglesway]

Anybody ever read C.S.Lewis' "The Great Divorce"?

Terrific allegory of outer darkness in that book.