6 or 7 creation "days"?

[WhiteWings]

I am not sure whether any of those pagan myths in any way borrowed from the concrete concept of ברא, but they are very different in form than what I understand to be the truth.

Likely I'm was not clear enough. I'm not saying the pagan myths are true. Moses started writing quite late in history. Other civilizations already wrote down their myths and where very much accepted. So it looks like the Bible sometimes uses those myth to explain something. Levithan, Hades, Appolian etc are used in the Bible. All highly pagan concepts. But that does not mean the Bible says those stories are true. On the contrary they are even mocked. Satan tries to steal God's glory by retelling God's works and put himself in the center. As I wrote the first verse sounds very much like a pagan creating myth if I replace created by cutting as you suggested.
:2c:

That's all I was trying to say. I hope I'm a bit more clear now. I have lots of stuff on the subject, including advanced Hebrew analysis. (not by me). If you need more info PM or email me.

The first 2 verses are not part of the creation week, but a separate/extra day. Is that what you mean?

Yes. The first two verses (in particular verse 2) I believe is referring to the first day of the month, new moon (dark moon) day. This was its own day, not counted as either a shabbat nor any of the 6 working days. Here is how it would appear in calendar form:

1st day of month (darkness over the face of the deep, what is called new moon day, marking the beginning of each month, neither a work day nor a shabbat)
2nd day of month, first day of work week (light)
3rd day of month, second day of work week (expanse)
4th day of month, third day of work week (land and plants)
5th day of month, fourth day of work week (lights appointed)
6th day of month, fifth day of work week (sea and air creatures)
7th day of month, sixth day of work week (land animals and man, completion of creation)
8th day of month, shabbat (God ceased from his creative work)

This is how I understand it.

So while I was wrong about "out of nothing" the creation week was 8 days (starting with day 0)

[WhiteWings]

I would therefore see that verse two is speaking about the dark moon period of night, the first day of what is considered to be the 7th month in the Creator's calendar. Then, when verse three refers to the day and what transpired there, I would see it as referring to the 2nd day of the month, which would be the first day of the working week.

For ease of discussion let's call verse 1-2, Day-0.
If Day-0 is a Sabbath day God would have worked on Sabbath.
Is every dark moon day Sabbath day or was Day-0 a regular Sabbath day.
I've read a view that every full moon was a Sabbath day. Even if it was not on the weekly Sabbath.

[WhiteWings]

A side note:

Gen 1:1  In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

OR

Gen 1:1  In the beginning [time] God created [energy] the heavens [space] and the earth [matter].

LS, I was thinking exactly the same thing while writing my first post but didn't want to start a old vs young earth debate from 'the beginning'   

A Christian joke about the Big Bang is: "There was nothing and it exploded."
But in a way it's exactly what God did if we assume bara means 'out of nothing. Just exploring all options Ronen  :gimmefive:
God 'exploded' the universe into existence.

Scroll down and look at the picture. If you like it you likely like the whole site.
http://www.abarim-publications.com/GenesisStandardModel.html#.Uyc7IfldWUY

[WhiteWings]

hi! I'm not seein' it  :Peace2: My Strong's concordance says "bara" (#1254) is "to create, cut, select"

It's been my opinion He created all things not out of nothing (which yes would show extreme power)

One day a group of scientists got together and decided that man had come a long way and no longer needed God. So they picked one scientist to go and tell Him that they were done with Him.

The scientist walked up to God and said, "God, we've decided that we no longer need you. We're to the point that we can clone people and do many miraculous things, so why don't you just go on and get lost."

God listened very patiently and kindly to the man and after the scientist was done talking, God said, "Very well, how about this, let's say we have a man making contest." To which the scientist replied, "OK, great!"

But God added, "Now, we're going to do this just like I did back in the old days with Adam."

The scientist said, "Sure, no problem" and bent down and grabbed himself a handful of dirt.

God just looked at him and said, "No, no, no. You go get your own dirt!"


:laugh:

[WhiteWings]

perhaps He may 'cut' little portions of Himself..in order to create,since there is 'nothing' but Him.........

     Adam-rib removed-woman formed...?

The breath of life is a part of God too. Long, long ago God existed totally alone. There was nothing besides Him. So everything there is somehow traces back to God. Even the plastic of the keyboard I'm typing on right now.

[gregoryfl]

Likely I'm was not clear enough. I'm not saying the pagan myths are true.

No, you were clear. I didn't think you believed those myths to be true. :) I was just adding to what you were sharing. I was just saying I did not know if the particular myth you were relating came out of the meaning of bara or not. :)

So while I was wrong about "out of nothing" the creation week was 8 days (starting with day 0)

If, when one says, 'out of nothing', they mean, 'out of what is not seen', then I would agree. If they mean, 'not out of another thing' I would also agree, since God is not a 'thing'. If they mean nothing as in 'non existence', then I would have to disagree, since all things came out of God, by means of his word, and God and his Word do exist and in fact YHWH defines existence itself (this name containing the root word for 'exist').

I see 6 working days, wherein he shaped (asah) during days 1 through 6 what he originally created (bara) back in verse 1. I guess if you include the original matter created in verse 1 and seen in verse 2, then there would be 7 periods from the top (berashiyt) in which it all took place.

For ease of discussion let's call verse 1-2, Day-0.
If Day-0 is a Sabbath day God would have worked on Sabbath.
Is every dark moon day Sabbath day or was Day-0 a regular Sabbath day.
I've read a view that every full moon was a Sabbath day. Even if it was not on the weekly Sabbath.

Perhaps there are those who believe that New Moon day is a Sabbath, but I believe the scriptures teach it to be a separate type of day...that there are 3 types of days in Scripture. Work day, New Moon day, and Shabbat day. Each month starts with New moon day, then 6 working days, then a shabbat, followed by another 6 working days and shabbat, until the end of the month. So your Day-0 would be, not a Shabbat, but a New Moon day, when God erected the physical creation, ready to shape it the following 6 working days, then to cease from it on the first shabbat, setting the pattern for man.

Thus says the Lord Yahweh: The gate of the inner court that looks toward the east shall be shut the six working days; but on the Sabbath day it shall be opened, and on the day of the new moon it shall be opened.
(Eze 46:1 WEB (R))

No creative work was to be on Shabbat, but the tabernacle was put up (creative work) on new moon day. By the way, the erecting of the tabernacle and the 7 day period leading to the 8th day of the month when the priesthood and services were inaugurated is related to Genesis 1 and 2.

Ronen

[gregoryfl]

perhaps He may 'cut' little portions of Himself..in order to create,since there is 'nothing' but Him.........

     Adam-rib removed-woman formed...?

Yes Sheila :)

That is how I understand it from the word used, although the cutting would be just a descriptive term used to describe the process, something we can understand. I do not believe it was a literal cutting of himself, like there are bits of God out there everywhere. (I know you do not believe that also) God is in all things, but is not those things, just as Adam was in his woman (a part of him taken to form her) but he is not his woman.

Ronen

[WhiteWings]

For ease of discussion let's call verse 1-2, Day-0.
If Day-0 is a Sabbath day God would have worked on Sabbath.
Is every dark moon day Sabbath day or was Day-0 a regular Sabbath day.
I've read a view that every full moon was a Sabbath day. Even if it was not on the weekly Sabbath.

Perhaps there are those who believe that New Moon day is a Sabbath, but I believe the scriptures teach it to be a separate type of day...that there are 3 types of days in Scripture. Work day, New Moon day, and Shabbat day. Each month starts with New moon day, then 6 working days, then a shabbat, followed by another 6 working days and shabbat, until the end of the month.

If I understood you correctly I see some problems. Sometimes there are 14 days between Sabbaths because some weeks have no Sabbath. Making New moon day a Sabbath only solves the problem for 28 day months because it would cause 2 sabbath days in a row on 29 day months.
:dontknow:


01 New Moon Day
02 Sunday
03 Monday
04 Tuesday
05 Wednesday
06 Thursday
07 Friday
08 Saturday
09 Sunday
10 Monday
11 Tuesday
12 Wednesday
13 Thursday
14 Friday
15 Saturday
16 Sunday
17 Monday
18 Tuesday
19 Wednesday
20 Thursday
21 Friday
22 Saturday
23 Sunday          - Day 1
24 Monday          - Day 2
25 Tuesday         - Day 3
26 Wednesday       - Day 4
27 Thursday        - Day 5
28 Friday          - Day 6

Missing Sabbath day

01 New Moon Day    - Day 7
02 Sunday          - Day 8
03 Monday          - Day 9
04 Tuesday         - Day 10
05 Wednesday       - Day 11
06 Thursday        - Day 12
07 Friday          - Day 13
08 Saturday        - Day 14  --> Previous Sabbath was 14 days ago.

[WhiteWings]

Just found this site: http://lunarsabbath.info/index.html

[gregoryfl]

I had the same objection at one time. I will reply to your post WW if you would like, but I do not want to go off on another subject from your original post.

[marie glen]

hi! I'm not seein' it  :Peace2: My Strong's concordance says "bara" (#1254) is "to create, cut, select"

It's been my opinion He created all things not out of nothing (which yes would show extreme power)

One day a group of scientists got together and decided that man had come a long way and no longer needed God. So they picked one scientist to go and tell Him that they were done with Him.

The scientist walked up to God and said, "God, we've decided that we no longer need you. We're to the point that we can clone people and do many miraculous things, so why don't you just go on and get lost."

God listened very patiently and kindly to the man and after the scientist was done talking, God said, "Very well, how about this, let's say we have a man making contest." To which the scientist replied, "OK, great!"

But God added, "Now, we're going to do this just like I did back in the old days with Adam."

The scientist said, "Sure, no problem" and bent down and grabbed himself a handful of dirt.

God just looked at him and said, "No, no, no. You go get your own dirt!"


:laugh:

  That's cute!  :laughing7: :laughing7: I like it! :smile:

[Tapioca]

Yes! That has been my completely favourite joke for years. It says so much.

[marie glen]

Likely I'm was not clear enough. I'm not saying the pagan myths are true. Moses started writing quite late in history. Other civilizations already wrote down their myths and where very much accepted. So it looks like the Bible sometimes uses those myth to explain something. Levithan, Hades, Appolian etc are used in the Bible. All highly pagan concepts. But that does not mean the Bible says those stories are true. On the contrary they are even mocked. Satan tries to steal God's glory by retelling God's works and put himself in the center. As I wrote the first verse sounds very much like a pagan creating myth if I replace created by cutting as you suggested.
:2c:

:Chinscratch: I've had the tendency to assume the pagan versions lend proof to them.. even with the outrageous parts, like cyclops or what not..

...after ppl spread away from Babel Tower, and their languages were divided, that they took history with them, so the handed down accounts of creation.. the flood.. came to be handed down in all the lands in the various languages..

Moses, however, when he wrote the account down.. the handed down memory in his tribes, that is, was "inspired by the HS" as to what to write.. whereas Gilgamesh, for instance in his version of the handed down fuzzy memory of the flood, wasn't inspired by the HS, but by the handed down versions, which we know how that pans out with exaggerations, and the like.. Two witnesses can give accounts, and if one testifies later than the other, it doesn't mean he copied the first.. but both were the witnesses memory.. "scoffers" like to make the plagiarism claim as one of their proofs against God.. (but all those are easily answered:)

Take Eve who Adam called "the mother of us all"... all lands have a myth/legend of a mother goddess.. and do you know the oldest artifacts found of these 'mother goddesses' are of a rather heavy lady? only later did they develop into versions like Diana, or Artemis (was that the name? been a while since I studied that) the one of Babylon.. not IsIs.. that's Egypt wasn't it?

So, in my own weird mind, i've wondered if perhaps Eve over her life span became a rather big lady, and if the 'mother goddess' wasn't fuzzy memories of Eve (also) taken into all lands from the dispersion from Tower Babel..  :smile: :icon_jokercolor:

[WhiteWings]

I had the same objection at one time. I will reply to your post WW if you would like, but I do not want to go off on another subject from your original post.

Please share Ronen. It's not really off-topic because it relates to a (fresh) view what verse 1 is about.

[WhiteWings]

:Chinscratch: I've had the tendency to assume the pagan versions lend proof to them.. even with the outrageous parts, like cyclops or what not..

Greek mythology has the titans. Titans are giants which are half man and half god. Nephlim where giants (I think Goliath was a Neplim) and half human half angel. So maybe that's the origin of the titans mythology?

...after ppl spread away from Babel Tower, and their languages were divided, that they took history with them, so the handed down accounts of creation.. the flood.. came to be handed down in all the lands in the various languages..

It also seems a fact cultures just take gods from other cultures change a few names and a few other things. The Roman gods mostly are renamed Greek god. In fact some scholar claim that all religions, except the Christian/Jewish, traces back to the wife of Nimrod who created the first full blown anti God religion.

Moses, however, when he wrote the account down.. the handed down memory in his tribes, that is, was "inspired by the HS" as to what to write.. whereas Gilgamesh, for instance in his version of the handed down fuzzy memory of the flood, wasn't inspired by the HS, but by the handed down versions, which we know how that pans out with exaggerations, and the like..

I'm not trying to say Moses or any other Bible writer got things messed up. I'm saying two things:
a] Satan inspired pagan priests to write all sort of things that the true God did. Including creation stories. But obviously satan never gave credit to God and replaces some names and added some other twists. Because of that the stories have a lot of things in common. That doesn't make God less powerful. It merely shows satan is good at distorting facts.

b] Many people that came to God lived in pagan nations and knew a lot about pagan stuff.
But Abraham had grown up in a pagan land. Even his family were pagans, worshipers of many gods. ..... (Joshua 24:2).
So when inspiring Moses God had 2 options. Explain everything over again or once in a while use a pagan word/concept because all knew about it. Or even mock those myth. Gen 1:1 possibly is an example of that. A creation myth predating Moses by many centuries is about two gods fighting for control. The supreme god, which has a different name in every culture, won and cut the opposing god, Levithan (the voilent sea) in 2 parts and fashioned earg and heaven out of it. So verse 1 my say: I the God called Yaweh am the supreme God that cutted down all that opposed me. Job also mentions Levithan. Again not to declare the Levithan myth as a fact. Just that mentioning Hades in the NT isn't about giving glory to the Greek god Hades. Or mentioning Apployion isn't about giving glory to that Roman god.

Two witnesses can give accounts, and if one testifies later than the other, it doesn't mean he copied the first..

That's almost teh opposite of what I tried to say in each and every post on this subject. Moses story, which was no story but a fact, was the very very first. It just got written down long after all those other false stories.

[gregoryfl]

If I understood you correctly I see some problems. Sometimes there are 14 days between Sabbaths because some weeks have no Sabbath. Making New moon day a Sabbath only solves the problem for 28 day months because it would cause 2 sabbath days in a row on 29 day months.
:dontknow:


01 New Moon Day
02 Sunday
03 Monday
04 Tuesday
05 Wednesday
06 Thursday
07 Friday
08 Saturday
09 Sunday
10 Monday
11 Tuesday
12 Wednesday
13 Thursday
14 Friday
15 Saturday
16 Sunday
17 Monday
18 Tuesday
19 Wednesday
20 Thursday
21 Friday
22 Saturday
23 Sunday          - Day 1
24 Monday          - Day 2
25 Tuesday         - Day 3
26 Wednesday       - Day 4
27 Thursday        - Day 5
28 Friday          - Day 6

Missing Sabbath day

01 New Moon Day    - Day 7
02 Sunday          - Day 8
03 Monday          - Day 9
04 Tuesday         - Day 10
05 Wednesday       - Day 11
06 Thursday        - Day 12
07 Friday          - Day 13
08 Saturday        - Day 14  --> Previous Sabbath was 14 days ago.

Ok, I will try to explain, since you asked. The first, and probably most difficult thing that needs to be done is to totally forget about the way our calendar works today. That is what causes so much of the problem. Man's calendar and the Creator's calendar operate totally different from each other. The celestial clock works the way the Creator intended it, and where man cannot touch it, to tell us when day is, when night is, and what kind of day it is. My 12 year old son has been taught to observe the heavens and has known since he was 10 how to tell what day it is according to the heavenly calendar. For us older folk it takes much more unlearning, since we tend to mix the way our calendar works with His.

Having said that, each month has either 29 or 30 days.

Of those days, 1 or 2 are New moon days (days in which there is no moon seen, and where the month is reset from the previous month). An important point to note here is that new moon days are not week days, like they are in our calendar. They are a separate category of day, designed to reset the month and tell us when that is.

Then you have 24 working days (each noted by the appearance of the moon, either waxing or waning). Those 24 days are divided up into 4 equal periods of 6 days each, each followed by a seventh day.

There are 4 seventh days following each 6 working day period, called shabbats (each noted by a half moon, full moon, half moon, then the last sliver of moon)

Those 6 working days followed by a shabbat is what makes up a scriptural week. Again, at the end of the month, when new moon happens, that is counted as a day of the month, not a day of the week. There is a difference in His calendar.

When you see the calendar put together, and separate it in your mind from the one you are used to using, you will see that every week has a shabbat at the end of it. The reason it appears that there are weeks without one is because people are erroneously counting new moon day as a day of the week. Here is a 30 day month that I will try to outline below to get a visual of this:

                              01 New Moon day (not a weekday, nor a shabbat)
02 03 04 05 06 07 08 Six working days ending in shabbat (first week)
09 10 11 12 13 14 15 Six working days ending in shabbat (second week)
16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Six working days ending in shabbat (third week)
23 24 25 26 27 28 29 Six working days ending in shabbat (fourth week)
                              30 New moon day (not a weekday, nor a shabbat)

Most know of only one day called new moon, but in ancient times there were either 1 or 2 such days. An example of 2 days of new moon can be found in 1 Samuel 20, where King Saul held a special dinner for 2 days, where David (part of the family) was expected to be. Those special meals were done by custom on new moon days.

The reason for the 2 days of this festive meal is because the first day is called "ha'chodesh" (vs 24). This is the first day of new moon, ending the previous month.

Then on the morrow, the next day is called "ha'chodesh' ha'shni". This is the second day of new moon, beginning the new month.

David knew there would be two days of new moon, which is why he hid in the field for three days and not two.

On those months with only 29 days, there is only one day of new moon, which occurs right after the last shabbat.

Since the new moon period resets the month, on the creator's calendar, each shabbat occurs on the same day of each week...the 8th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th. There is a continuous cycle, but it not the same as the continuous cycle that our calendar has.

Superimposing this calendar on the creation week of Genesis 1, I see that first new moon day as the day the creator put out all the prepared raw materials that he would use the next 6 days to work with to make everything just as he had in his heart. Just as with my current acceptance and understanding of universal restoration, it took me a good long time to work through my objections and come to see it as I currently do, which of course, in my mind makes beautiful sense. :)

Ronen

[Tapioca]

This is fascinating, Ronen. Post more and more, please, of these things you know.
Were those new moon days set aside in some way; treated as special?

[gregoryfl]

Were those new moon days set aside in some way; treated as special?

In ancient times they were, yes. It was a day of feasting, a time of worship, and a general day of rest, although not quite to the extent of Shabbat, preparing for the upcoming 6 day workweek. According to history, in time, it gradually lost its specialness. To me, it pictures the time when the cornerstone was laid and the heavenly host trumpeted with joy.

Ronen

[WhiteWings]

Ronen, what if the month is 29 days?

I have to search but I have an article from a Jewish encyclopedia about day-x being an additional Sabbath day.
I think day-x is a full moon day but I'm uncertain about it. But I'm certain about the extra Sabbath. I'll post when I find it.

[WhiteWings]

BTW this would also solve the problem on how to count the omer and things. Ancient Jews didnt agree on it.

[micah7:9]

I "think' all of this is on a road of intelligence.

[gregoryfl]

Ronen, what if the month is 29 days?

If there are 29 days, then you have the 4 shabbats on the 8th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th, and the next day is the first of the next month, one new moon day. I have been observing this calendar for a about 4 years now and I have never had an extra shabbat in any month, just the 4 mentioned.

Thank you micah for that reminder. I do not want what I share to be just 'information' to stroke one's intelligence. I get much in a spiritual way out of these physical things, and believe that is what it is all designed to point to, our beloved Yeshua.

Ronen

[WhiteWings]

Thank you micah for that reminder. I do not want what I share to be just 'information' to stroke one's intelligence. I get much in a spiritual way out of these physical things, and believe that is what it is all designed to point to, our beloved Yeshua.

Even if it was just information for intelligence it would be good because if we want to know how it points to Jesus we have to understand the intellectual part first. Otherwise it's almost guaranteed wrong doctrine is build upon it.



You use the term "dark moon". I assume that's the period without any visible moon. If so, how does your calendar compensate for the variable length of that dark period?
Plus in my personal understanding the 1st of the month started with the first sighted crescent.

[gregoryfl]

You use the term "dark moon". I assume that's the period without any visible moon. If so, how does your calendar compensate for the variable length of that dark period?
Plus in my personal understanding the 1st of the month started with the first sighted crescent.

I think most who go by the moon do the same, in looking for the first sighted crescent to tell them when the 1st day of the month is. As far as variable lengths, in the over 4 years I have been going out and observing the sky and learning as I go along, depending on the month, there are only 1 or 2 such days when the moon is not seen. Because I live in cloudy Florida, if the weather prevents me from seeing the sky clearly after that, I know that a month will never have more than 30 days so I start the month automatically then. Also, by the time I get to the 6th working day, the moon that night will tell me that the next day is shabbat, so it all works out.

In my personal understanding, the first sighted crescent signals the start of the 1st day of the workweek, the 2nd day of the month. So upon seeing the first crescent, I see it as the signal to get some good sleep and get ready to work the next day. :)

If one wished to see this pattern for themselves, the only thing I can encourage is to do what I do...go outside and get to know His heavenly timepiece firsthand :).

Ronen

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: How about God created out of Himself, which is literally creating out of NO THING.....ie. nothing that is material realm.

He is forever ascending and descending in and out of His creation, since. God breathes in = spirit leaves flesh = we die. God breathes out = spirit comes into flesh, we live. For in Him we live and breathe and have our BE-ING, no longer NO THING.

Faith IS, the EVIDENCE OR SUBSTANCE of things, NOT SEEN, ie. NO THING. Put another way, what you see is what you had the faith to pull out of being NO THING, and into being SOMETHING in the material creation realm.

For we don't know what we will be like, but we know that WHEN WE SEE HIM, we will be LIKE HIM. As was said to the men gazing up into the clouds that day, paraphrased for clarity, THE JESUS YOU SEE IS THE ONE THAT WILL RETURN TO YOU.

WHO do you see? Your faith reveals Him. Blessings....