Issue of Will in reference to Scripture

[rrich7]

Hello Beautiful People!!

I wanted to prompt a discussion & see what responses I'd get from you all. I appreciate this forum greatly because I see many of you use biblical basis to support what you say & I love that we can all grow & learn from each other here.  :friendstu:


So I've been thinking a lot about free will lately.. & if what we know as free will really exists & what of Gods will?
After hearing my dads arguments on why my belief in ultimate reconciliation is wrong, my faith became even stronger in it! I had noticed it before but even more now that modern day Christianity) can be contradictory to the bible & to its own beliefs as well. I've read a few article on why universalism is incorrect by those die hard eternal torment christians (can't be mad at them cuz God hasn't opened their eyes yet) & what I see is basically, "God didn't make robots, Gods will is to save all christians, but we have to choose faith."  Before God finally opened my eyes to my questions about the "church" & my pleas for salvation of everyone, I would've just said "ok, makes sense I guess." But lets really look at that belief & dissect it a bit.

These churches say they believe in a God in which nothing is impossible yet when confronted w. universalism state that it is impossible (even though this is Gods will).

They say they believe in a God who is love, who sent His only Son to die, to be the ultimate sacrifice, who came, not to judge man, but to save him but also believe that He will damn most of the world & that His sons actions are for naught.

They believe that life was pre-ordained by God, that He knew us before we came to be in our human life, that He is ALL powerful, omnipresent, omnipotent, yet somehow God didn't know everything & had to set up a plan B, that He created each & everyone of us KNOWING that most would be sent to be tormented because we would "choose".

Lastly, they believe that we have more control over our fate that the all powerful God. They believe that His will, is not more powerful than our own. Yet, they clearly sing in hymns & songs & preach that whatever God wants He gets.

I see why so many, including myself, struggled/are struggling with the more modern church. 

So does free will exist as we know it?  Doesn't the potter have rights over the clay (Rom 9:21)???  I'm still researching because some Bible verses do seem to imply free will, so I'll look into it as I go.

God blinds eyes & hardens hearts! I read on an apologetic ministry site that it is not God who hardens hearts, only that He allows for our hearts to be hardened & we make the choice to harden our own hearts (based on the issue of God hardening Pharaohs heart & later in 1 Sam 6:6 it says pharaoh hardened his own heart). However wouldn't the denial that God hardens & softens hearts for his divine purposes make salvation something of our own doing? Because our flesh doesn't seek out things of on our own God, it doesn't want to, it can't. (Rom 8:6-8) Which is directly impossible based on a number of scriptures.

"For the disposition of the flesh is death, yet the disposition of the spirit is life and peace, because the disposition of the flesh is enmity to God, for it is not subject to the law of God, for neither is it able. Now those who are in flesh are not able to please God" (Rom.8:6-8).   

It isn't our "choice" to see the truth or not, because there were/are many who wish to see the things that the disciples saw (prophets & righteous men) & have not seen or heard them (Matt 13:15-17).

There are a few teachings (either in parable or in His words) by Jesus that say that some are able to receive the word while others are not. He mentions blindness a number of times, and it is mentioned more times (other than in his teaching) as well. Sometimes the blindness is by God & other times it says some are blinded by the god of this world. Almost ALL of Romans 9 basically disperses the idea of free will as we know it today.

When E.T christians are confronted with some of these scriptures they argue that God wouldn't harden hearts for a number of reasons. One I saw said that if this is the case & people would believe in God anyway whats the point of hardening their hearts? My understanding based on scripture is that it is for a purpose, so every ounce of His plan could be fulfilled. An argument or response to that was that God didn't have to harden hearts of people to have His plans fulfilled  :doh:

Again we have a gross denial of apparent scripture that is repeated multiple times. I find the E.T Christians are very good at twisting scripture, denying it, or not looking at it in its entirety (which may be an example of satans power to "blind" eyes & cause confusion.)

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. 9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. 11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

My personal belief & understanding on free will based on scripture?  It doesn't exist in the way that many of us have been taught. I believe God allows us to "stumble blindly" until He opens our eyes to Him or otherwise uses us for our predestined purpose.

I think of it this way, if we all knew the 100% exact truth about something & there was no debate, argument or "supporting evidence" for those other arguments, then believing the truth would be rather simple, would it not? 

Ultimately, the truth will become known on judgement day, that God is the alpha & the omega, the first & the last beginning & the end, & once everyone knows this as a 100% truth & fact, who would not want to believe?!  Once the corrupting earthly flesh has been separated from the spirit, one Satan's lies have been dispersed & earthly understanding done away with, what will there be left to blind us from a more complete understanding???? Nothing!

As believer's in Christ, we are divided by so many denominations & we all know a house divided cannot stand. (Matt 12:25).  It makes belief difficult for most, it leaves those who are in the churches confused as well.

For those who question if God ever had a divine plan to begin with & that He had to develop a plan B, here are a couple scriptures to show that EVERYTHING is pre-ordained & nothing (even man's "free will") can stop His plan:

Isaiah 46:10-11
Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, `My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure'; Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man of My purpose from a far country. Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned it, surely I will do it.

Isaiah 14:24
The LORD of hosts has sworn saying, "Surely, just as I have intended so it has happened, and just as I have planned so it will stand,

Isaiah 55:11
So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.

Ephesians 1:11
also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works ALL THINGS after the counsel of His will

Job 42:2
"I know that You can do all things, And that no purpose of Yours can be thwarted.

Proverbs 19:21
Many plans are in a man's heart, But the counsel of the LORD will stand

Daniel 4:35
"All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, But He does according to His will in the host of heaven And among the inhabitants of earth; And no one can ward off His hand Or say to Him, `What have You done?'

Proverbs 16:9
The mind of man plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.

Ephesians 3:8-11 (NIV)
8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord's people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Proverbs 21:1
The king's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the LORD; He turns it wherever He wishes.


There are MANY more scriptures like this where it is CLEAR that God has control over ALL things, has pre-ordained ALL things, that HE WILL have His way.  No one at this point can convince me that anything I choose to do can separate me or anyone else from His love, because He made it a point (since it made it into so many scriptures) to make it ABSOLUTELY clear, that NOTHING, NO ONE, NO MAN & NO MANS WILL can prevent Him from having His will!  :banana: :banana: :Pray: :Pray: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

I know I'm talking to choir, but this is great news!!!! Does anyone have anything to add to maybe help someone stumbling around looking for answers find the truth?

Love & Blessings
:HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

[WhiteWings]

We have free will. But so has God. Battle of the wills. Guess who wins  :laugh:

Pro 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way, but the Lord directeth his steps.

Basically, that happened to Israel in the OT. They had free will to break God's commands, but when God finally lost His patience He for example had them enslaved by Egypt.

[ed]

I know I'm talking to choir, but this is great news!!!! Does anyone have anything to add to maybe help someone stumbling around looking for answers find the truth?

Love & Blessings
:HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

Howdy rr,

Lots written on the topic.
http://tentmaker.org/articles/free-will-gift-or-curse.html

The above article explains a little of it.

The subject of man's "free" will in relation to God's absolute sovereignty is a doctrinal dilemma that is just as controversial today as it has been in past centuries.  Many believers do not understand how the choices of men can be reconciled with the plans of God, and so it is often dismissed by the average Christian as being too hard a subject to comprehend.  Theologians have tried their best to figure out this "mystery," but instead of reconciling the two issues, they have divided themselves into two distinct camps—the "free" will camp (Arminianists), and the "sovereignty" camp (Calvinists).  Both of these views have elements of truth, but both also contain falsehoods.  In this essay, we will look at both views and see that they need not oppose one another, but together, they can give us the COMPLETE picture of how God uses the choices of men to bring about His will.
http://tentmaker.org/articles/free-will-gift-or-curse.htmlc

We are all still stumbling around.  Simple love is the greatest comfort in our time of struggle.  When we have learned to rely on the love of God, the stumbling takes on purpose, even when we have no idea what that purpose is. 

I enjoy reading your posts.

.

[mplsfitter539]

IMO the only choice we truly have is obey Yahweh or not obey Yahweh. Now if we choose not to obey we have chosen to operate outside the safe zone designed by Him which always always comes with consequences. Yahweh is in the process of creating all of us for a certain special purpose which when revealed to us will make us understand why we had to experience all the things that we went through. It will all make perfect sense when we are sitting at the wedding party and the doors close and the ones outside will be gnashing there teeth.

[micah7:9]

rrich7  Type in free will in the search there has been much said on this thought :dsunny:

[rrich7]

Thanks all!!! And I tried to type it on the search but should I type it seperatel(two deeper are words?).

& I don't doubt that we have free will to an extent (& definitely not how we define it; the article on the tentmaker site used a good ability of a master n a dog on a leash, thanks for that btw), but as I believe it was Julie on another discussion said, can anyone make an informed decision to follow God when most of Christianity tells us He is merciful & just but will damn the majority of mankind to hell? And I'm sure many of those very same Christians seek God too, but as Jesus told the disciples, many righteous men have wished to see & hear what you have. Our flesh can't choose God on our own it doesn't want to so then there's the question how do we choose God. Well he must open our spiritual eyes and ears. I think those of us hear are blessed because our eyes & ears have been opened to the true nature of God by God (for me it has been but by bit since I was young until I arrived here) &  we have made a much more sound decision to follow Him than those who are just trying to escape damnation. Not saying that they also don't love God, but I'm afraid most of Christianity fears Him more than they love Him & they reflect their hate for their enemies & those who don't "follow suit" by wishing or delighting in a never ending torment. It reminds me of the prodigal son parable on which God accepted the rebellious son back home with ease & the obedient son was so mad he missed out on the party. Instead of being happy, loving his briother & rejoicing that he was home. 

[Graph1159]

If you're interested in the subject of free will, I would recommend listening to James Coram's audio series "Human Choice and the Deity of God" (http://www.salvationofall-av.org/indexEN/Coram/Coram.htm). I've made to Part 10. It sounds so philosophically complex that it's almost funny at times, so it takes a while to absorb. But it is extremely thought provoking, and many things were brought to my attention that I had never thought about before.

[ed]

Thanks all!!! And I tried to type it on the search but should I type it seperatel(two deeper are words?).

& I don't doubt that we have free will to an extent (& definitely not how we define it; the article on the tentmaker site used a good ability of a master n a dog on a leash, thanks for that btw), but as I believe it was Julie on another discussion said, can anyone make an informed decision to follow God when most of Christianity tells us He is merciful & just but will damn the majority of mankind to hell? And I'm sure many of those very same Christians seek God too, but as Jesus told the disciples, many righteous men have wished to see & hear what you have. Our flesh can't choose God on our own it doesn't want to so then there's the question how do we choose God. Well he must open our spiritual eyes and ears. I think those of us hear are blessed because our eyes & ears have been opened to the true nature of God by God (for me it has been but by bit since I was young until I arrived here) &  we have made a much more sound decision to follow Him than those who are just trying to escape damnation. Not saying that they also don't love God, but I'm afraid most of Christianity fears Him more than they love Him & they reflect their hate for their enemies & those who don't "follow suit" by wishing or delighting in a never ending torment. It reminds me of the prodigal son parable on which God accepted the rebellious son back home with ease & the obedient son was so mad he missed out on the party. Instead of being happy, loving his briother & rejoicing that he was home.

:thumbsup:

Thanks for sharing your quest.

I am encouraged!

.