Medicine vs death

[micah7:9]

When did the gift of healing, making whole, get released to the medical profession by believers in Jesus Christ? Was it laws made by men? And we walk in step?
I read several articles, heard on a news show, though not many, but enough to cause me to wonder, when a man and his wife, a mother and father of a child they love believe that the God they believe in will heal their child and are willing to accept, and do accept, that live or die is the will of their belief. These folks are convicted of murder or child abuse because they believed in the healing would come from Jesus Christ or their belief.

Yet  christians who believe in Jesus Christ, their Savior run to a medical facility when it would seem death is at the door. Jesus died, all the prophets died, the apostles died and they all await the raising again[resurrection] of the dead. There is no resurrection of the living that I know of.
I hear christinas all the time talking about wanting to be with the Lord, but it seems they just don't want to die to get there, cause they are always leaning to and for the physician(medical profession) to keep them alive longer. Yes, it does confuse me. If the belief is that it is better to be with the Lord, why do believers cling to this temporal life like that's the end? Yes I am confused by christian speak.

[Seth]

The Bible doesn't say we shouldn't seek medical help. It says we can pray for healing,  it not to the exclusion of medical attention. I think it's legalistic for them to pressure other Christians to avoid seeking it. Even Paul recommends wine to Timothy for his stomach problems and ailments. I don't think he was lacking faith in that. Just using the resources at his disposal and praying they are blessed.

[ed]

Everyone's faith is different.

I believe that God heals.

I don't often see miracles though.  I've been involved with faith healing ministries.  Did not see a lot healing there either.

God has healed my mind for sure.  I have ailments that seem to be with me for the duration here.  I keep expecting a miracle.  Who knows, maybe I have been healed of things that I did not even know were there.

I work with a man who is deaf.  He is a wonderful Christian man.  I'm always impressed with his kindness, faith, hope, love.   I worked with a man with a bad speech impediment.  I always had the odd feeling that he could be healed.  He too was a wonderful confident man.  He stuttered terribly but always had the respect of everyone he had dealing with.

I've watched Christians beg for healings. Most never see the healing.  I know believers who believe in healing and expect it.  They seem to be healthy because of their faith.

Love heals.  I know it does.  The physical may never see a healing, but the spiritual is first and foremost.  The walk of faith, even if the physical is never seen is a tremendous witness.

I agree with you.  Christian speak is often an odd paradox. 

[eaglesway]

Unfortunately, so many Christians placed their delusions upon their innocent family members and refused them reasonable medical help or threatened them with ex-communication or hell for using doctors, it gave the world an excuse to come in and legislate the issue. I have seen some great healings of terminal conditions, and had a third degee burn on my own hand go from looking like a burned marshmellow to like a babies skin in ten seconds with no pain by prayer. But like the seven sons of sceva who said, "In the name of Jesus whom Paul preaches come out of the man"- and got a beating for their efforts, I think it is important to know faith from will-worship and presumption....cuz I have seen a whole lot of that,too.  :2c:

[WhiteWings]

Meds or not can be viewed in roughly two different ways.

a] Illness is God's will so taking meds is against God's will.
b] Life is God's gift that has to be protected (by meds)

If I must pick an answer, it would be "b". I'm not really a fan of letting people suffer by keeping them alive with meds while they still feel very ill. But argument "a" is very flawed. Frost is also part of God's design, just as people not being able to survive in frost. However, due to human intellect, we can survive by making clothes and shelters with heating. Is that opposing God's will too? Mankind is the weakest and most unfit 'animal' of creation. Not strong, not fast, bad smell, bad eyesight, can't last long without food or water, can't handle harsh climates, doesn't specialize in anything, etc. We would have been extinct long ago without utilizing our brain too, for example, make weapons to defend yourself against predators. Also opposing the will of God?
I could give many such examples, but my point is that while God's survival gift to to a lion is speed and strength, His gift to mankind is brains. And it's exactly that gift that allows people to survive by taking meds.

Yeah, not taking meds may be seen as rejecting His gift. Things never are easy....

:2c:

[rosered]

 

  Found this  about healing,
 
Mark 9  in context .....

Mar 9:23   Jesus said unto him, If you can believe, all things are possible to him that believes. 

My sister  had a brain tumor [gbm] and  it was the medicine that  took her earlier than the  disease

  She had faith , lots of prayers went out ,
   The thing that was most amazing is she was ready to meet the Lord  , she spent that time preparing to   be free from mortality  , by putting on Christ [immortality ]  I have never seen a better witness to the glory of God in what death  is certain ....
It renewed my faith  in Gods goodness 
I know this sounds strange  to some , but   the truth is not always  some lovely  sweet thing to hold , it can be devastating   as well   for those  left to deal with  truth
  loss is a sure thing in the mortal realm 

[micah7:9]

Meds or not can be viewed in roughly two different ways.

a] Illness is God's will so taking meds is God's will.
b] Life is God's gift that has to be protected (by meds)

If I must pick an answer, it would be "b". I'm not really a fan of letting people suffer by keeping them alive with meds while they still feel very ill. But argument "a" is very flawed. Frost is also part of God's design, just as people not being able to survive in frost. However, due to human intellect, we can survive by making clothes and shelters with heating. Is that opposing God's will too? Mankind is the weakest and most unfit 'animal' of creation. Not strong, not fast, bad smell, bad eyesight, can't last long without food or water, can't handle harsh climates, doesn't specialize in anything, etc. We would have been extinct long ago without utilizing our brain too, for example, make weapons to defend yourself against predators. Also opposing the will of God?
I could give many such examples, but my point is that while God's survival gift to to a lion is speed and strength, His gift to mankind is brains. And it's exactly that gift that allows people to survive by taking meds.

Yeah, not taking meds may be seen as rejecting His gift. Things never are easy....

:2c:

I do not see A or B. illness and infirmities, diseases just like earthquakes and blizzards, it is part of how life operates. Where does it stipulate that life is a gift? All that has been alive from Genesis has had one destination, since the woman ate of the fruit, and that was death.
Yes man was given brains, but look at how those brains(intelligence) worked at the tower of Babel. I am not denying man and his accomplishments in medicine, physicians save human life, but by doing that [and I am not trying to belittle the progress] but this "power" of medicine and healing most certainly give the human in that space the attitude of the tower of Babel and even Ezk. 28 or Isa. 14. All I am attempting to offer is, have WE as believers weakened our own hoped gain in faith by believing in man [who has gained great progress in finding healing and cures for the human body] yet this body of mine is on a timed schedule, are physicians altering that time schedule? Whether that altering makes me or my loved ones happy or sad, is it interference because man is moving every year closer to things in stem cell, cloning. Just where is the physician of medicine going?  :2c:

[micah7:9]

Thoughts that I have been having still, wondering why after becoming believers,  we feel and  find a strong desire to hold onto the old body of clay so adamantly? And why are physicians and medicines held so high in our life? Physicians are not mentioned a dozen times in the Bible, and none that I could find in a real positive note.
2Ch 16:12  And in the thirty and ninth year of his reign Asa was diseased in his feet; his disease was exceeding great: yet in his disease he sought not to Jehovah, but to the physicians.

Does medicine and physicians actually only give us a hope a hope that is temporary and nothing lasting?
Has a man, who believes in Jehovah, who becomes a doctor of medicine, truly believe that any recovering from dying, or prolonging a patients breath, is something medicine or the physicians knowledge aides at all?
I believe "we" man thinks so, imagines so and cause a boasting in himself(ego-self)that has brought man[today] with all his knowledge of medicine, drugs, surgery, to that place where we pray to God to assist the physician and should a recovery be success, "it's thank you doctor and thank you God, or thank you God and thank you doctor."

For here I read Job. 14:5
ifSince his days are decided|,
The number of his months are set `by You,
And You have made his statutory time,
+Which he cannot |surpass,
Job.14:6 Be heedless of him, and forbear~, Until, like a hireling, he may fill in his days.

Should this be true, " his days are decided..." [that's you and I]
"the number of his months are set..."  [that's you and I]
"You have made a statutory time...."  [for you and I]
'WHICH HE CANNOT SURPASS..."  [again you and I]
:HeartThrob: :dsunny:

[micah7:9]

Part 2

I am certainly not attempting to make light of physicians and medicine, it helps the " human man" but this knowledge, I, me personally have come to believe is for that "old man"... and there is so much power in that thinking from the old man's selfishness and ego, for what he considers to be "life," so the tentacles of that thinking sadly continues in those who are being drawn.

But 2Cor.5:17, Eph. 4:24, Col. 3:10 the "new man" needs to begin with this strength ...
1Co 2:16  For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he should instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
John 14 Rotherham(i) 12 Verily, verily, I say unto you—He that believeth on me, the works which, I, am doing, he also, shall do; and, greater than these, shall he do, because, I, unto the Father, am going,—

Jesus healed the sick, stayed the sea, raised the dead, did miracles, the Apostles Peter and John healed, James writes of healing. When did this Word from Jo. 14:12 become nullified? Or is it?

Mat 8:13  And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And the servant was healed in that hour.
O ye of little faith..Matt. 6:30, 8:26, 16:8, and Luke 12:28
Luk 9:25  for what is a man profited, having gained the whole world,(continuing in this earthy life without the faith of Jesus Christ not knowing that it is being raised from the dead we are perfected[complete] ) and having lost or having forfeited himself?

This for me is a very overwhelming verse of the Word .. Joh 10:10  The thief cometh not, but that he may steal, and kill, and destroy: I came that they may have life, and may have it abundantly.

I have come to embrace the thought that "the thief" is medicine and physicians (among other things that the Lord has caused man to create) Steals ...faith, Kills...belief, Destroys....morals.

Just where and when did we as believers lose or quit on The FAITH?  Was it perhaps when man began to gather the "healing" knowledge of what  the human man can do, and put it to work? Man's ego is fed with pride and stoked by "I can and I did." :Chinscratch: :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

Just where and when did we as believers lose or quit on The FAITH?

We didn't.

[eaglesway]

Does anyone remember the story about the seven sons of Sceva? They tried to cast out demons in the name of Jesus "whom Paul preaches". They got beaten in the street for their efforts.

In James it is written, "Confess your faults one to another and pray for one another that you may be made whole. Are there any sick among you? Let them call for the elders of the church and the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and if they hav any sins they shall be forgiven them."

This is the evidence of a presence of the Holy Spirit within the assembly of believers, the eclessia, the body under His headship, the temple of living stones fitly joined together as a dwelling place of God in the Spirit- that we don't see today.

There are always some gifted individuals who hav an exceptional gift of faith or healing, but by and large the kind of healing that is available to most believers is a function of the body, "What is it when you come together- on has a prophesy, one has a teaching one has a revelation, "... " God has so placed the members of the body that there might be no division"... One has a gift of healing, another a gift of prophesy, another a gift of miracles, another discerning of spirits".

IMO, Unless there is a repository of the glory of God in the temple(living stones), a gathering in one mind and one accord, there is no widespread deliverance and we can fast and pray and believe and cry but it won't happen because God has set His glory in the midst of the gathering.

So I hesitate to ever advise people to operate like the 7 sons of sceva, "Be healed in the name of Jesus whom the Bible preaches".

I know, for myself, that there is not a fountain of deliverance flowing right now for most people because the city of God is desolate and His house is full of crows and bats and hyenas chirping and raising a ruckus in His name- but having little or no real power in the Spirit.

"The Lord worked with them confirming the word with signs and wonders following."

God is not confirming the word or working with us in many places, IMO, because His word is not being declared in a relevant or revelatory way in many places.

I personally don't believe it will be again until the glorious good news of the restoration of all is proclaimed in the power of the Spirit.

[micah7:9]

"God is not confirming the word or working with us in many places, IMO, because His word is not being declared in a relevant or revelatory way in many places."

I can understand and see that, and I see that as the very thing, the word thing is quite illusive in meaning so... :Peace2:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Here's how the Word thing works. True story. I have shared some of this before on here. I had terminal cancer. Mix up, someone forgot to make call to tell me test results. Year and a half later, I'm hemorrhaging buckets. Doctor visit finds in papers what I wasn't told BEFORE and should have been. Now told I'm dying.

In shock, I go home and on my face on floor, I told God, "I know the Word says you're a healer, I know you can heal. What I need to know now is, ARE YOU GOING TO HEAL ME?"

I got a personal, ONE ON ONE, Spirit breathed word from the mouth of the Father, which said to me that it was already taken care of. Now THIS Word, is why the scripture says that man shall not live by bread (letter) alone, but by every Word (spirit-breathed) from the Father's mouth.

Here's the difference. The first, the letter, is not personal, one on one, first hand experiential knowledge. In a court of law, it's the testimony of someone else that God's a healer. The second, IS a personal, one on one, Spirit breathed word from the Father's mouth. The Father is Spirit, anything out of His mouth is Spirit. And it is THIS WORD, by which we live.

Think about it. These words are literally the breath by which we live or have life! So having that Word, the only thing left for me to do was stand on it. Three normal biopsies within 3 weeks later, although I clearly had an 8 inch tumor which had spread tumors to all my other organs according to them, and though I hemorrhaged for exactly 7 weeks straight, every day I called my mind a liar, and commanded my body to line up with the Word of God. That was 16 years ago, and I never had cancer treatment one. By His stripes, I WAS (past tense) healed. We've ALREADY BEEN HEALED, we just have to get with the Father to appropriate it!

Had I done that with the literal bible Word of God, we wouldn't be having this conversation now. This is why you read of people who are well meaning but ignorant of God's principles, let their kids die because they refused to give them the medicine they needed because the letter said He's a healer.

LOVE is the key. Got faith and a proceeding word of life to go with it? Be healed.
Don't have enough faith, and don't have a proceeding word of life? Do what is needed to live until you do. It's usually not an either/or with God, it's a "I love you so much I'll work around pretty much anything, until you see ME in the midst of it!"

Like the doctor's say, FIRST, do no harm. Many don't even have the common sense wisdom of a doctor, and so they let death take their family member when temporal temporary help would have sustained them until they had time to catch hold of the hem of His garment. Blessings....

[micah7:9]

Since his days are decided|,
The number of his months are set `by You,
And You have made his statutory time,
+Which he cannot |surpass,
Job.14:6 Be heedless of him, and forbear~, Until, like a hireling, he may fill in his days.

I praise the Lord right along with you for your healing and happy for you, yet it sounds like you are the one in charge of getting the Father to appropriate....
Since my days are decided, the number of my months set BY HIM and I have a statutory time, which he cannot surpass....Where does what you say fit it?

I'm not sure why you are seeing this, as far as me having anything to do with it? We have to appropriate WHATEVER the Word says, else it just sits there gathering dust on a shelf. By appropriate it, I mean, mix the Word with faith, and approach the throne of grace boldly. The Word says He's a healer, but it's HIS will that is sovereign in every single situation.

Thus, I said, I know You can, I know You are, but in THIS INSTANCE, are You going to? That yea or nay was to be my proceeding word of life I had to stand on. It came back YEA. Do you see what I am trying to convey here?

"... we just have to get with the Father to appropriate it!  Had I done that with the literal bible Word of God, we wouldn't be having this conversation now. This is why you read of people who are well meaning but ignorant of God's principles, let their kids die because they refused to give them the medicine they needed because the letter said He's a healer."

I stumbled on this. It sounds to me like you are telling Him to get it done, and one of my main wonderings is whose to say that  those kids death is not at that "statutory time?"
And aren't you saying well the doctor and his medicine can keep you alive till God gets around to the healing part?

I think I answered part of this in the above part. But to clarify more, lets not assume that because someone dies, it must be their appointed time! Death is a thief! There is nothing in it, in and of itself, that has any power to save. And I'm saying that God is longsuffering, and He will suffer through all the unbelief necessary to wait us out to the end, desiring that none should perish but all should come to repentance. Death is an enemy, and if it's his enemy, then it ought to be ours.

God is sovereign (sorry, not trying to toss hat into forbidden ring here) but that is what I learned from asking Him, and then accepting within myself BEFOREHAND, WHATEVER His reply would be. What I learned was: IF ONLY GOD COULD KILL ME, NOTHING ELSE COULD. Can you see this? I surrendered my knowledge He was a healer, surrendered my faith He COULD heal me if He wanted to, surrendered my life even IF He wanted to allow it to take me out. That made the cancer POWERLESS to do anything apart from exactly what HE ordained it should.

We give these things power THAT IS NOT THEIRS! It's GODS! I refuse to make a covenant with death, I refuse to bow down to the idols that can neither speak, nor hear, nor save, INCLUDING THE CHRISTIAN ONES! Can you hear me, brother??? I'll not go to the altars of Baal or Molech willingly who sacrifice the children HE HAS BIRTHED IN OUR WOMBS/hearts to appease their gods anymore!

Now if God be for you, who (including the word cancer, including it's fruit inspectors, including the religious spirits telling you it's ok to worship Him a month late, in the wrong place, with the wrong offering = false feast of tabernacles set up in I believe, 2nd Kings) then WHO can be against you???

Press in my brother, for that proceeding word of life from the Father's mouth by which you LIVE. I am standing in the gap for you, with one shoulder under the stave of the ark, waiting for you to lift up your side, and RAISE THE MIND OF CHRIST UPON YOUR SHOULDERS, THAT WE MIGHT CROSS OVER OVER DRY LAND WITH THE WATERS OF DEATH ROLLED BACK ALL THE WAY TO ADAM!!! Glory to God, His yoke is LIGHT and light is UNDERSTANDING! Be ye quickened this day! Blessings..... :HeartThrob:

Yes the Word says He is a healer, and I believe that Word, but Jesus did not as you know go around healing everyone with every illness. People died all around the world while he walked on earth.  I'm just asking, my cancer has come back, I'm not upset, I pray to Him all the time, wondering and asking why am I still here.  What is yet my purpose? I am going to the VA, why, well because I'm a human being and going to physicians is something a human being does because probably it was a physician who brought you into this world, but aha, it wasn't the physician at all who brought you into the world

Ecc 3:2  a time to be born, and a time to die;  It's the time thing see.....it and we are ALL in that TIME thing.
:2c: :dsunny:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Sorry bro.....it's been nearly two years since I've been pushing buttons on here, and I accidentally replied ON your post, instead of onto a quote of your post. Oops.... :sigh:

[Seth]

Micah, I am not sure if I totally see what you are saying, but here is my idea of it, and correct me if I am wrong:

Back in the old days, before modern medicine, people couldn't fall back on going to see a doctor to cure their ailments. So if they wanted healing, mostly they needed to rely on prayer. That lack of modern medicine basically put them into a position to rely more on faith, because there was nothing else they could do. That caused them to have stronger faith. These days modern medicine has been a gift but has another edge to it, like a double edged blade. On the one hand we have this awesome modernization of medicine which can do so much for a cure, but on the other hand it can cause us to get lazy and rely more on man than God. Essentially it's a gift that can also be a curse.

Not sure if that is what you mean, but if so, I can understand that. Maybe that is a test for us. Is it lacking of faith to go to a doctor? To me, nothing is unclean of itself. It all has to do with faith, and since I cannot know someone else's mind, I cannot judge their faith. God is their judge on that.

I cannot say whether anyone is lacking in faith, because I cannot see into their minds, but I can see fruit, and if the fruit is good, then it seems that the tree is good. Since I don't see that going to a doctor and taking medicine is bad fruit, such as malice, envy, murder, sexual immorality, striving, deceit, whispering and gossip, I take doctor and medicine as neutral. Therefore, I cannot know if someone is lacking faith because they go to a doctor, especially if it seems that the Lord is working through that person in loving their neighbor.

I don't know, I am just thinking out loud really. I think I see your point as medicine can be a danger to faith if we become lazy and run to a human being for salvation and forget God in the process. Yeah, that can be a danger. But I cannot take it to a place where another person's faith would be indicted for it by me (not that I think you are doing that). That's just where I would limit my own concern with this matter. 

[micah7:9]

I did not offer Job. 14:5-6 to be over looked and your reply "seems" to put the words in Job as null and void. Perhaps I misunderstand.
I also depend totally in my faith in Him and more so in the Faith of Jesus Christ. (Gal. 2:16, 3:22)

Since his days are decided|,
The number of his months are set `by You,
And You have made his statutory time,
+Which he cannot |surpass,
Job.14:6 Be heedless of him, and forbear~, Until, like a hireling, he may fill in his days.

"Thus, I said, I know You can, I know You are, but in THIS INSTANCE, are You going to? That yea or nay was to be my proceeding word of life I had to stand on. It came back YEA. Do you see what I am trying to convey here? "(Cardinal)

The truth that it came back Yea as you say, the it is because "The number of his (that's or me you) months are set `by You,(the Lord) I am sure that your supplication was heard and praise the Lord His Time Was Not For You, Yet.

"But to clarify more, lets not assume that because someone dies, it must be their appointed time! Death is a thief! "(Cardinal)
"God is sovereign ..."(Cardinal)

Now the above statements make me wonder. .."lets not assume....it must be their appointed time..."

ince his days are decided|,
The number of his months are set `by You,(the Lord) I would say HE has the appointed time, now should He hear your/our prayer and answer Yea, then it WAS NOT YOUR APPOINTED TIME for His reason and purpose.
Then also if The Lord is Sovereign(and I believe He is) then the "thief " you speak of is under His power, which means death has NO POWER unless meted out by HIM.
I believe in prayer and healing and just my getting up in the morning and daily well being. I try to pray unceasingly, I like to pray and give Him the Glory for each second I breath.

Ecc 3:2  a time to be born, and a time to die;  It's the time thing see.....it and we are ALL in that TIME thing.

[Seth]

I'm not sure if that's a response to me or to Cardinal because you seem to be quoting her more. Was that intended for me?if so, can you please let me know if my summary was about what you're saying?

[micah7:9]

I'm not sure if that's a response to me or to Cardinal because you seem to be quoting her more. Was that intended for me?if so, can you please let me know if my summary was about what you're saying?

I am working on yours my brother. That was For Cardinal :Peace2:

[micah7:9]

Seth
Micah, I am not sure if I totally see what you are saying, but here is my idea of it, and correct me if I am wrong:

Back in the old days, before modern medicine, people couldn't fall back on going to see a doctor to cure their ailments. So if they wanted healing, mostly they needed to rely on prayer. That lack of modern medicine basically put them into a position to rely more on faith, because there was nothing else they could do. That caused them to have stronger faith. These days modern medicine has been a gift but has another edge to it, like a double edged blade. On the one hand we have this awesome modernization of medicine which can do so much for a cure, but on the other hand it can cause us to get lazy and rely more on man than God. Essentially it's a gift that can also be a curse.

What I am saying is that  "awesome modernization of medicine which can do so much for a cure,..."  feeds the hunger of man's ego.  He-man- now begins to believe in himself, man has advanced to cloning.

Not sure if that is what you mean, but if so, I can understand that. Maybe that is a test for us. Is it lacking of faith to go to a doctor? To me, nothing is unclean of itself. It all has to do with faith, and since I cannot know someone else's mind, I cannot judge their faith. God is their judge on that.

I am not attempting to say anything about faith. What we do is up to the individual and how the Lord is working with anyone particular person. I am also saying nothing about physicians and medicine, they are needed and good in the human walk. Like I said why would I not go to a physician when I am ill, it was a physician that brought me into the world, I am cued in from birth to go to a physician. Yet today, I am in the process of being born from above, my citizenship is now in a higher place, and as a child I must now learn a different dependency, The Physician. But now not  just for or even a healing, but to receive the care of The Physician preparing me for that last walk, death, when and how ever it may come. Since I have been given a place in time to get to know my Savior, I want to do my best here, now as I breath this life which as far as I know is a death breath, it is only a temporary breathing. There is a life awaiting me that is so much better than this walk.

I cannot say whether anyone is lacking in faith, because I cannot see into their minds, but I can see fruit, and if the fruit is good, then it seems that the tree is good. Since I don't see that going to a doctor and taking medicine is bad fruit, such as malice, envy, murder, sexual immorality, striving, deceit, whispering and gossip, I take doctor and medicine as neutral. Therefore, I cannot know if someone is lacking faith because they go to a doctor, especially if it seems that the Lord is working through that person in loving their neighbor.

Again, it has nothing to do with faith. I had a call and my thought train went so, I will just say that it seems that physicians and medicine keep us, those who have been drawn and are being born again on the same plain as anyone else, to continuing living here at all costs. We all profess as I have read on the forum 2Co 5:6  Being therefore always of good courage, and knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord
2Co 5:7  (for we walk by faith, not by sight);
2Co 5:8  we are of good courage, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.
But when we reach that ledge of death, that final step, we turn to the physician and medicine offered by man with all that "awesome modernization of medicine which can do so much for a cure,..."    we even turn to  prayer, like we don't really, want to go.


I don't know, I am just thinking out loud really. I think I see your point as medicine can be a danger to faith if we become lazy and run to a human being for salvation and forget God in the process. Yeah, that can be a danger. But I cannot take it to a place where another person's faith would be indicted for it by me (not that I think you are doing that). That's just where I would limit my own concern with this matter.

[Seth]

I think I get what you are saying. It seems like the kind of things words don't quite do justice to, but I think understand that. Not that medicine is bad, but it does extend our time as pilgrims in a foreign land, and it indeed does tend to inflate mankind's ego.

[micah7:9]

 :dsunny: We are yet still human even tho we attempt to be what we believe to be "believers." Letting go of what we have, life as we know it and being established, is a scary thing even within all of our I "believe speak."

We seem to want to be preachers and witnesses while we are alive and well, here... when we witness profound happenings, even when we have received what we call a healing from death, but when that thing called death surrounds us, we seek not to die of this life, yet death is the very thing that will carry us to what we profess we desire.
HE offers LIFE and that more ABUNDANTLY yet we just do not want to let go of this "death of clay" we walk and breath in.
Either death from this earthy life is a welcomed thing or we just don't really want to be in that "changed in a twinkling of an eye being."
We hold to this life as though it is all we have, but we sing we want to go to heaven. Does anyone think that physicians and "awesome medicines" could have anything to do with the thinking? :doh:

[Seth]

I am a believer that often emotions do not follow with reason, and that the will to live is a deep, primal emotion engrained within us to continue living, while our rational mind believes it's not the end.

[micah7:9]

Yes..." and that the will to live is a deep, primal emotion engrained within us to continue living,.." EVEN after we begin to born from above, so do we or have we really accepted that we are being made whole, saved, healed or are we just saying things?

[Seth]

I think that the sons of God can only be completed when they receive new bodies which are in heaven. What we have been given is a foretaste of future glory. So we can believe that we are being made whole and healed, while still carrying imperfections with us. I think we are all still growing.