Fatalism and absolute free will have something in common

[Graph1159]

I am about half-way through listening to James Coram's recording series titled "Human Will and the Deity of God." He brought up a point that I had never thought about before.

Many Christians are disturbed by the extreme predestination position (sometimes called fatalism) which says that God is in control of everything and therefore, we do not need to live as if we carry personal responsibility. Many Christians try to run as far away from that notion as they can (and think that any sort of predestination is fatalism in disguise), so they adopt a position of absolute free will.

However, what both fatalism and absolute free will have in common is that they both claim events can happen without a cause. Fatalism says that God can force anything to happen even without a cause that would trigger the event. Absolute free will claims circumstances cannot constrain people into making a decision; therefore, events can happen without being caused by something else.

What do you think about this?
Samuel

[Lazarus Short]

Philosophically, can we not posit FATE as a cause in the first case, and WILL as a cause in the second?

Not so philosophically, it seems to me that "fate" and "will" are abstract concepts which tend to float about in the intellectual ether, and "it don't make no nevermind nohow."  :footmouth:

[JulieTang84]

Wow Samuel, this is a great topic too  :gimmefive:

I have heard of just about every conceivable view point on predestination and free will. I think I could write a book  :winkgrin:

I think Father can and does intervene in a number of ways that sometimes appear miraculous. A miracle by definition defies probable cause, which means it is not impossible that something "happened" but the odds were extremely unlikely. Free will is a pit of snakes for sure. Most people confuse "will" with "choice" (they are not the same) but I will go with the latter. Free Choice is a fallacy as by definition alone; one should be able to choose to speak in any language one wishes. Choose to never SIN again. Choose to NOT GROW OLDER. But it get's worse than this. One can only choose from a very limited selection of choices. For example: if I see something interesting, I might see a use for it in one form or another based on MY experience. Whereas you for example might see a whole host of other uses for it, based on YOUR experience.

In another way. I might react to a certain situation because that is how I have always reacted. Someone else might react totally different. Sure, I am free to think about reacting differently, but when  push becomes a shove, past experiences (good and bad) form our free will / choice portfolio.

The truth of the matter is that we are prisoners of our own choosing, which is anything but free.  :doh:

We are certainly not free to demand Love from Father and have Him Love us. We are certainly free to ask sweetly and politely, but we are not FREE to make Father do anything. Most of us are NOT EVEN free to be who we really want to be or even need to be. Paul wrote very well on this.


Rom 7:12
Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Rom 7:13

Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Rom 7:14
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Rom 7:15
For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

Rom 7:16
If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

Rom 7:17
Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Rom 7:18
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Rom 7:19
For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Rom 7:20
Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Rom 7:21
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Rom 7:22
For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

Rom 7:23
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Rom 7:24
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Rom 7:25
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

SO how free was Paul? How free are we? Not so much!

I have heard that Father has planned everything, right down to the apple in the Garden of Eden. That EVERYTHING that has happened since HAD to happen because of that single event. Every circumstance is the result of a previous circumstance/s. Life as we know it is nothing more than millions of trillions of dominos all carefully stacked and all being knocked over in turn just because ONE was pushed 1000's of years ago. This is a fascinating theory as it demands there is no such thing as chance. Even if you are thinking right now: Great!!! I might as well go do what I like and enjoy myself!!!!! Doesn't affect this at all. Because for some previous circumstance cause you to write your post, something caused (circumstance) me to be here and now to read and respond to it.   :Chinscratch:

All of this could boggle the mind, which IMO is why Jesus told us to become as little children, to lose our understanding and TRUST Father in everything and every way. I used to be a victim of circumstances Samuel. Now I use them to promote Love and Joy and to shed Fathers Light through them, this creating a difference for me and for others. I don't care what it was that bought the situation about, other than being thankful I could be present to share it, much like I am sharing this with you now.

Hopefully you are sill here  :dsunny:

LOVE JULIE  :HeartThrob:

[micah7:9]

I am about half-way through listening to James Coram's recording series titled "Human Will and the Deity of God." He brought up a point that I had never thought about before.

Many Christians are disturbed by the extreme predestination position (sometimes called fatalism) which says that God is in control of everything and therefore, we do not need to live as if we carry personal responsibility. Many Christians try to run as far away from that notion as they can (and think that any sort of predestination is fatalism in disguise), so they adopt a position of absolute free will.

However, what both fatalism and absolute free will have in common is that they both claim events can happen without a cause. Fatalism says that God can force anything to happen even without a cause that would trigger the event. Absolute free will claims circumstances cannot constrain people into making a decision; therefore, events can happen without being caused by something else.

What do you think about this?
Samuel

Just me, in a word the thought is stupid. I may have fallen in the same state I have fallen in when I used the word "silly", if so woe is me. :dsunny:

[Graph1159]

Just me, in a word the thought is stupid. I may have fallen in the same state I have fallen in when I used the word "silly", if so woe is me. :dsunny:

Eh? Not sure I get it  :laugh:

[Jock]

Julie, good post, comprehensive and comforting  :thumbsup:

Those who abide by "free will" are usually the folks who make laws out of grace. It is God who changes us/does a work in us. His will! His choice! His love! His plan".

I used to try this, I would read the scriptures and try in my own power to change, stop sinning etc. Just like Paul, I agreed in my mind but my flesh (with pushes of spirit) and power went off to sin. I was very frustrated for a long time.

I began to speak to the Lord in prayer about these things and at certain times, He would speak in my ear and it was backed by a scripture (of His choosing) and there was POWER The power for me to change was His, not Mine. When Paul states that there is nothing good in his flesh, I can say AMEN because I know that place. I have visited it. I know fellowship with Paul cuz I aint gonna change my flesh.

My flesh is headed for a dirt nap anyways.  :eek:

Shalom

Jock. :Peace2:

[micah7:9]

Julie, good post, comprehensive and comforting  :thumbsup:

Those who abide by "free will" are usually the folks who make laws out of grace. It is God who changes us/does a work in us. His will! His choice! His love! His plan".

I used to try this, I would read the scriptures and try in my own power to change, stop sinning etc. Just like Paul, I agreed in my mind but my flesh (with pushes of spirit) and power went off to sin. I was very frustrated for a long time.

I began to speak to the Lord in prayer about these things and at certain times, He would speak in my ear and it was backed by a scripture (of His choosing) and there was POWER The power for me to change was His, not Mine. When Paul states that there is nothing good in his flesh, I can say AMEN because I know that place. I have visited it. I know fellowship with Paul cuz I aint gonna change my flesh.

My flesh is headed for a dirt nap anyways.  :eek:

Shalom

Jock. :Peace2:

:dsunny:

[rosered]

 

  I  think  thats the  greatest part of all  , in Gods plan 

  think about it  , in simple terms   your only accountable  for what you do know

   to know to do good and dont do it this is sin /error

   God in His master plan kept Israel in  darkness/blindness   ,  Not accountable   when everything is shroudded in mystery   , till the fulness of the Gentiles / all other nations    come in  to the Light Knowledge of God   

  makeing the first last and the last first    as the scriptures   are accurate

  and what do we know  , its only by faith   what Christ has done and is doing  for all .
Seems Gods plan is perfect  in the sense of forgive them Father for they know not what they do ,
In the grand scheme of things  , what we do know is by faith NOT by sight   .. 
  For me its    for sure Spiritual in nature  , who sees the Spirit     but those given Spiritual eyes of understanding   about the Wisdom of God 
Who God chooses    to   and for His purpose of course  !  :dsunny:
 

[Seer After Truth]

Good posting so far!  My wife and I "argue" about this (She is not convinced of UR like I am, but that is another matter).  She found this article by an Orthodox that I thought was excellent:  http://afkimel.wordpress.com/2013/05/19/universal-salvation-what-are-the-odds/.  After reading this, what struck me from reading it was the fact that our so called "free choices" are by nature and definition limited.  However, neither do I think it is predetermined in that where is no choice, it is just I would qualify it by again, limitations.  Even our being saved is wholly dependent on God enabling it in the first place!  I have chosen to think of life and salvation in terms of participation since last Father's Day!

I came up with an axiom a few years ago (I am an axiom man...), before I was in the UR camp, "Anything that God creates is by nature less than He is."  From that, and I might as well discuss thoughts about sin that I was contemplating on "choosing" (Where's the smiley for no pun or tongue in cheek when you need them!) to do a post, I concluded (for myself) that instead of the old original sin or ancestral sin (I do like the Orthodox understanding of ancestral sin), I had this thought that the fall of Adam and Eve was then "Inevitable Sin."  So I have not believed since then that Adam and Eve were created perfect but that the possibility for sin was already in them.  Even the text hints at it in that Eve looked and was tempted!

So, of course God would know each and every possible outcome of creating anything that he chose to create.  Therefore, how at all, if God is Maximum Good and Love, never changing, and why would he create anything if the outcome He would foresee and want, would not eventually happen.  On the Experimental Theology blog of Richard Beck (He is a universalist), was a repost on Iranaeus the church  father on the fall and Iranaeus said that instead of the Augustine thought that man was created perfect, sinned, and therefore lost that perfection of the Garden, man fell so that God would then use an "education" to bring man where he intended to bring him.  (Note:  This is my summation and remember that Iranaeus is a couple of centuries before Augustine>)

Now, this is where I believe Universalism is the best in that if God is intending to bring man to a certain place, then it would be the best and possible outcome for all men to be brought to that place.

Beginning in 2009, God really changed things up for me in that He brought me a deep understanding of "His integration or oneness, and our dis-integration."  I have always struggled with things not being right, that is things are not reconciled with my own dis-integration being the main struggle.  So, contemplating God's justice, every knee bowing (knowing this way before He brought me into UR), knowing in my heart that every knee bowing would mean it!  So, since I was thinking all sin is dis-integration, but also even deeper than that.  It is in the fact that everything we do is tainted with a possible bad outcome.  In no way can we absolutely control the outcome of our choices.  So the answer for me in all this was Universalism, but neither free will or predestination/Predetermined.  And that it was not really about those two things either...

Here is where I see so much potential:  Freedom in Christ means that we are free to live within the limitations that are in our lives but also to try to make our lives more.  God is for us, so really what is the problem!  I am free to accept everyone.  We are all going to be fully holy and happy one day and this is the start of that process so bring it all before God, the good, bad, and the ugly.  It is anything and all things.  God will help us all along the way.  Now, if I can just know this down in my heart deeply as this is the vision, but it has to been brought to bear down in our circumstances in order for us to truly embody (would the word incarnate be appropriate here?) what God wants to do in us as what He wants to do in everyone.  Choosing sin and dis-integration impedes this process in us and in others, but again, it is before God, and not apart from Him so we have to all go though the process of failing, repenting, learning in our own way and time.

I better stop now, but hopefully what I said makes a little sense!

Peace and reconciliation to all!

William

[Jock]

William, you said: and why would he create anything if the outcome He would foresee and want, would not eventually happen. I don't have a full answer to that, but I can say that is why Christ came. The Father said, "This is my beloved son, in whom I am well pleased" Because of Christ, He can now say that of us.

Shalom

Jock.  :Peace2:

[Seth]

I am about half-way through listening to James Coram's recording series titled "Human Will and the Deity of God." He brought up a point that I had never thought about before.

Many Christians are disturbed by the extreme predestination position (sometimes called fatalism) which says that God is in control of everything and therefore, we do not need to live as if we carry personal responsibility. Many Christians try to run as far away from that notion as they can (and think that any sort of predestination is fatalism in disguise), so they adopt a position of absolute free will.

However, what both fatalism and absolute free will have in common is that they both claim events can happen without a cause. Fatalism says that God can force anything to happen even without a cause that would trigger the event. Absolute free will claims circumstances cannot constrain people into making a decision; therefore, events can happen without being caused by something else.

What do you think about this?
Samuel

I always remember Romans 9. Did Pharaoh resist God's will? No, but Pharaoh paid dearly for it. Paul understood the sovereignty of God but he still grieved for their blindness and preached Christ to them, because love compelled him to do so.

I think people tend to misunderstand sovereignty to say that God is forcing people to sin, so who are we to admonish with the words of Christ. But God is not doing that. He temps no man to sin. Rather, he turns people over to their own minds and they follow along.

[Seer After Truth]

Jock,

Yes, I agree with what you wrote.  I probably was not referring as such to how he was to remedy the situation, which is through Christ, as because we are in a situation, Christ did come for that purpose.  Probably philosophizing too much which I have a tendency to do... Thanks!

William

[Graph1159]

The responses have all been very good.

I think people tend to misunderstand sovereignty to say that God is forcing people to sin, so who are we to admonish with the words of Christ. But God is not doing that. He temps no man to sin. Rather, he turns people over to their own minds and they follow along.

Everyone says that we're not robots. However, advancements in programming allow robots to make numerous decisions without the direct command of a human. The limitation is that the decisions which robots make are consistent with how they were programmed to respond to circumstances (assuming the programmers didn't goof up the code).

When seen this way, the robot analogy might not be so far from Scripture after all. As you pointed out, God "turns people over to their own minds," and the message I see in Romans 9 is that God is their potter, so he designed how their minds would operate. From there, they make their own decision based on how their mind works without Him forcing them to act.

Of course the robot analogy eventually breaks down if we consider that humans have a spirit and robots do not.

[JulieTang84]

I always remember Romans 9. Did Pharaoh resist God's will? No, but Pharaoh paid dearly for it. Paul understood the sovereignty of God but he still grieved for their blindness and preached Christ to them, because love compelled him to do so.

I think people tend to misunderstand sovereignty to say that God is forcing people to sin, so who are we to admonish with the words of Christ. But God is not doing that. He temps no man to sin. Rather, he turns people over to their own minds and they follow along.

I believe we are getting closer and closer to the truth  :girlheart:

We are programmed to sin. It is a given. Only one man has walked this Earth and was sin free. ONLY ONE!!!!

So we could argue back and forth for the rest of eternity that some sins, are worse than others. But are they? The Bible speaks of only one sin that is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit" as mentioned in Mark 3:22-30.

I see Satan just sitting back rolling in laughter  :laugh: at Christians in general, who sit so diligently in front of the pulpit most every Sunday listening to HOW SINFUL they are. Oh Satan is laughing because of the foolishness of it all.

Father MADE US SINFULL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We didn't!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! have say in the matter!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Okay we sin....what can't we do that we should do as EASY as sinning? What is it that Jesus commanded us to do. 24/7?

Love Father with all we are and everyone else as we love ourselves. Oh my gosh, Satan is STILL LAUGHING, Louder this time!  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Because most every Christian thinks so lowly about themselves, so ashamed, so mortified that they SIMPLY CANNOT LOVE THEMESLVES. Therefore, being unable to love themselves, they cannot love anyone and if they cannot love in this way, they simply cannot Love Father. Satan is laughing because even with Father sending HIS OWN SON, Christians have ignored pretty much everything he said and taught.

Sin is no different than if everyone was PURPLE and all everyone did was run around frantically saying: We doomed!!! It's all over, we are dead. We are PURPLE, OH NO!!!!!!!!

Big deal!!!! Get over it

Forget the sin my friends, it's no different than being purple. We ALL sin!!!. but we all don't LOVE do we?

Satan has turned this thing upside down and inside out. He has most people believing that the WORST SINNER will PAY the greatest price and the "wonderful" people who say "Jesus died for me" are innocent and blameless. Really, the Scriptures tell a completely different story.

Luke 12
47"The servant who knows the master's will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

It really cannot be any clearer than this. The judgment is NOT going to be ON HOW MUCH WE SINNED, but rather on how much (or little) we have LOVED. The Scripture above is clear on this. Those who have been given little Faith and little Spirit (who are spiritually deaf and blind) Very LITTLE will be expected. But, but.......they killed and raped and stole and....and...THIER HEARTS WERE HARDENED BU FATHER.

Now look at the ones who have been gifted with Faith enough to know "of" Father. The ones who forgot that Jesus came to SERVE as examples to us all, and seek instead to rise above all others so they can condemn with prideful glee, everyone beneath them. Glorifying Jesus with much praise and adoration while they hold their heads high as they walk past the deaf and blind downtrodden. Sounds typical of the Good Samaritan parable doesn't it?

Jesus spoke of such as these:

Mark 7:6
He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: "'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.


Do you see a pattern forming here? Many of the people (if not all) that Jesus spoke of, likely did their very best to live honest, honorable lives and likely did not steal, rape, murder, etc. These are the ones that  Jesus spoke about in Luke 12: "From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded"

Much of WHAT???  LOVE first and ALL the fruits of the Spirit.....

But this is where it gets VERY INTERESTING and some might even say DISTURBING!!!!  :friendstu:

But hold on.... There is yet another group of people that Jesus mentioned in Luke 12: and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked

This is you and me. It has always been about ourselves and NEVER about anyone else. It's NOT about how sinful we are, nor how prideful we are. It really isn't. And it really ISN'T about how LOVING we are, because, we could be loving as hard and as fast as we can and still be missing the mark.

Yes, it is about Love, but it is about TRUSTING Father in EVERYTHING and having FAITH enough to let go over EVERY UNDERSTANDING that is not molded and made with LOVE. We are Spiritual Lights and we MUST SHINE  :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny: and bare Spiritual FRUIT in EVERYTHING we do.

Don't be shocked!   :doh:  Most here fully understand that that they have indeed: Been entrusted with MUCH. "Much will be asked" of us.

:HeartThrob: Trusting Father opens ones heart to see him Spiritually for who He is. He makes (well as least me) NEW again, a completely different person free of sin. Not sin free, but free from it being the center of who we now are. Father becomes First and foremost in EVERYTHING and we look at EVERYONE with a deep deep Love that surpasses anything we may know of them. We no longer see their Human AVATAR but a tiny spirit that is in need of copious amounts of Love, Patience, Compassion, Forbearance, Kindness and every other Spiritual fruit. We no longer see their SIN, but their NEED.

Jesus walked this Earth seeing the need in everyone. We have been gifted with much faith and much love. We must not take it for granted or even be fearful of it and bury it like the servant buried his two talents of silver. Rather, we MUST LIVE in JOY and SHINE  :dsunny: non stop. We are to be as Jesus was and people will see Christ in us without us having to say a word.

Of how we Trust Father enough to become as little children, walking with Him in boundless happiness sowing seeds, giving comfort, lifting Spirits, being  as Jesus is how we will GIVE ACCOUNT and it is about no one else but ourselves.

Living Fearless in Love  :HeartThrob: and Spiritual  :dsunny:  together :friendstu: in the Body of Christ, binging His Name back to Life.

Julie stepping off of her soap box........

I have so much Love  :HeartThrob: for all of you. There is nothing complicated here, nothing at all. Just Trust and Love in that order.  :girlheart:

Love Julie :HeartThrob:

[Jock]

Here is what God requires of us:

Micah 6:8 He has showed you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

He is well aware of the human condition. He will take away the heart of stone and give us a heart of flesh.
His work, not ours But can I take a homeless man for a meal? Yes, I can do that!

Jock