Discussions with Other Christians.. HELP!!

[rrich7]

Today I sent my a dad a link to an article on tentmaker. He called me & we got into a rather heated discussion  :sigh:

He in so many words told me that my I was leaning on my own understanding & not the Holy Spirit to show me the truth. That I wasn't seasoned enough in studying the word to truly understand, that because God gave man free will, it is up to us to receive Gods love even though it is freely given ( & used a metaphor of if you offer someone food, they still have to take it to receive it *rolls eyes*. That I shouldn't rely on what man says but what God says & that this teaching means that everyone will be saved no matter how they live their life. Needless to say.. I was exhausted by the conversations end, he wanted to speak over me, raise his voice & continuously beat me down saying that because He studies with the Holy Ghost  & has studied the bible (& other translations) that he has a "true" understanding. In one breath he tells me to only trust the holy spirit, but then tells me if I had common sense then I could see. He will acknowledge scientists & things but will not acknowledge those who are well studied in translations & the bible who are finding these incorrect translations.

My father has been raised to believe the "christian hell doctrine" all his life, it has been DRILLED into him & also drilled it into me, but with no planting of a seed of any kind at a young age in my relationship with God I saw discrepancy.

He made the argument that Adam & Eve were knowledgeable about the fact that eating the apple was sin.. (my response) how could they be? They hadn't yet ate of the tree of the knowledge of good & evil.. as a matter of fact there weren't aware they had sinned until eating it. His argument is that I must think God made Adam & Eve dumb, i said no, i think he made them intelligent, but just not knowledgeable of good & evil without which we cannot know the importance of obedience or the difference between the two.

He also made the argument that man has free will & its up to us to choose it to accept Gods love & that God wont force love (He also disagrees that once man is called by God they cannot deny the call or He believes they can). But then I think of people, people who will refuse my love, but that doesn't stop me from reaching out, or giving them love. Love isn't like a gift that has to be received, only given! I have yet to see anywhere in the bible that supports free will, but in my studies tonight I found something in the NT that denied it. God kept a man from committing a sin Gen 20:16.

I still have a lot more to go through & learn & study, but for those of you who have had these conversations, is there any advice you can give? Any supporting scriptures I can use?

[JulieTang84]

Dear rrich7, I am sad to say that there are plenty of Scriptures, but none will be of use until Father has given him eyes to see and a heart to comprehend.

To me, our job is to live the truth in all we do, offering our beliefs when asked. I have family who have written me off because of my belief in UR. That is fine. My joy is not dependant on their approval. The Spirit has taught me that LOVE shines brightest when there are no expectations.

Father will give your dad, Spiritusl eyes and ears on His time line.

Just my thoughts.

Love Always, Julie   :HeartThrob:

[onlytruth]

I agree, as much as we want to have our fathers approval, it might not happen right away
Love them anyways, they will evetually see your peace
blessings

[God Chaser]

Dear    rrich7,
Im sorry that you are having this experience with your father about Universalism. Bin there and done that. In fact, the more you learn and share your truth the more resistance you will receive from those who are protecting what they believe is their truth. So we must be sensitive to that, and do not engage them with a spirit of "Im right, your wrong", especially with our parents who still remember changing our diapers!

Your father is probably also just trying to protect you from false teachings. To him, anyone who believes that "All are saved" are probably from some new age cult, and he could think that they are trying to recruit you. That was my dads take on it! :laugh:

Anyways, are you learned enough to defend your belief that "All are saved"? What are your top reasons for universalism, if I may ask?   

[rrich7]

Dear    rrich7,
Im sorry that you are having this experience with your father about Universalism. Bin there and done that. In fact, the more you learn and share your truth the more resistance you will receive from those who are protecting what they believe is their truth. So we must be sensitive to that, and do not engage them with a spirit of "Im right, your wrong", especially with our parents who still remember changing our diapers!

Your father is probably also just trying to protect you from false teachings. To him, anyone who believes that "All are saved" are probably from some new age cult, and he could think that they are trying to recruit you. That was my dads take on it! :laugh:

Anyways, are you learned enough to defend your belief that "All are saved"? What are your top reasons for universalism, if I may ask?   

I appreciate the words & you're correct I believe he does feel as though he is trying to protect me.

My reasons for believing that all will be saved started young. I was taught God is love & Jesus did a great thing when He died for us. I was also aware the there is no fear in love. I don't mean to "toot my horn" but I was a wise child, I understood some things that other people my age didn't (A gift of God).

Knowing the above things & The first commandments to love God fully & love your neighbor as yourself had a great bearing in the compassion that I have for people. Even when I'm angry I don't stay mad for too long (most times), because love should overcome!

I watched many people around me, my father included, be fearful of "the end"; when Y2K was supposed to happen he went nuts! (seriously bought all kinds of things so as to survive & swore it must be the end). I watched things like left behind & the Omega code (don't know if any if you rember that movie) but I then became not only confused but terrified that Id be left. Did my father & others know something I didn't !?

I read the bible front to back about twice as a child, not fully understanding all that was written cuz the language was "funny", but I utilized a dictionary to the best of my ability. My fear eventually shifted (not fully) off of me & to others, my friends, my family, the rest of mankind. If I wasn't sure I was saved how could anyone be?

My prayers for others began, please help them to see, give people that gift so that they don't have to suffer. Then they shifted to, if it be Your will, I know you can do it, please save everyone.

I'd beg & plead with God, even consider at times if i would be a worthy sacrifice for the lives of others even for just some. Not in a self righteous sense but in desperate plea to save others. I quickly rejected that cuz #1 I'm not Jesus (lol) & I didnt want to question God, His plan or offend Him.

The more I tried to adhere to what the majority believed the harder I struggled with the idea of eternal damnation. Eventually I realized I was not questioning God but what people have taught. I had heard before that books of the bible were being discovered & about King James & how that Bible came to be & the gears went off. Knowing man & His root & sin I felt something had went wrong in translation.. Not yet being sure what. However I continued to struggle, with my faith (not in Christ, but more so I lost my trust in what I had been taught
) what if what I believed I felt in my spirit was Satan trying to trick me? Cuz he is the master of disguise ! Over the last few months I felt that God has been 'tugging' at me.. & I came. Still fighting my struggle in faith, I prayed for guidance & that I come to know peace, I prayed again that God save all people, if it be His will a few days ago (in a more detailed conversation with Him & that He help to guide me). Lo & behold while researching another bible related topic I stumble on one site, then tentmaker & I was amazed. There were others! HAha.

But all that to answer this, I believe the belief that God would save all has been rooted deep within my spirit for a long time & the compassion that God gave me (which even my family mocked me for being too "soft" guided me to that conclusion & this site.

Even so I'm new, I'm going back through His word, praying that God helps me be without bias, to se the truth & that He gift me with knowledge to have a better understanding, if it is His will. I'm aware it will be a process & the doctrine that I had been thought is still "infecting" my thoughts but I trust that IN HIS TIME I will come to a better place & all will be revealed & in the meantime I would share the love of God.

[marie glen]

No one, at first wants to hear that Christianity after 2000 years has lost some of the glory of its message, nor that it has picked upn some baggage along the way.. 'hell' of course is a preChristian belief, and hades ("place of the dead) according to the Bible is still "the grave".. Isaiah chapter 14 says Satan the opposer will end up with worms as his bed and maggots as his cover.. or vice versa..

Usually when trying to present uneversal redemption and reconciliation, I will only quote verses and let the verses lie like seed.. Like "If I be lifted up from the earth i will draw all to me" Jn 12:32 (italics in our bible is added word or words in an attempt to clarify)

Or "all the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD, every knee shall bow" ps 22(?)

"God is the savior of all, especially those who believe" 1 Tim 4:10

And of course prayer.. water those seeds with a lot of heartfelt prayer.. for the sake of the "good" news, as obviously those who believe staunchly in the tradition and translation handed down of 'hell' are safely saved.. and only the hOly Spirit can convince of truth..

[God Chaser]

Today I sent my a dad a link to an article on tentmaker. He called me & we got into a rather heated discussion  :sigh:

He in so many words told me that my I was leaning on my own understanding & not the Holy Spirit to show me the truth. That I wasn't seasoned enough in studying the word to truly understand,...
I still have a lot more to go through & learn & study, but for those of you who have had these conversations, is there any advice you can give? Any supporting scriptures I can use?

First, I find that quoting scriptures on U.R falls on deaf ears. They have their belief so engrained that their "Pillar verses to support Hell' override any other scriptures, no matter how compelling!

I told this one believer that I believe "Jesus Christ is the Savior of the WORLD, and that he didnt believe it! He said that he believed it too! I pulled out a world map and showed him all the countries that he has in his mind are going to hell! And that based on his belief, he only believed that Jesus Christ was the potential Savior of the World! His mind would not let him accept this simple obvious truth! That is what you are up against!

But when I started focusing on church history, there were too many facts that were irrefutable that U.R was the reigning doctrine of the church for its first 500 years. Its here that there is no defense, no mistranslated scripture verses can defend.

One example: I will share with you the pictures that were irrefutable and broke my own hell spell. To me "A PICTURE IS WORTH A THOUSAND WORDS!"

First Matt 25:46,
"Then they (Goats) will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
Now click this link and read the article:
http://mercynotsacrifice.blogspot.com/2008/01/ur-view-of-early-church-fathers.html


There are many more murals like those in the catacombs. it is interesting that the church does a sly of hand and skips over Matt 25:31;
31 "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as *the shepherd* separates the sheep from the goats*; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

*Who do the goats belong too?*

Another interesting fact is that there is no murals or mention of hell anywhere in those 1st and 2nd century catacombs!

Pictures like those sent me down a new path that I am still on today years later! Any discussion on early church history brings many unknown surprises to the E.T folks!

After I showed my dad those pictures, i then had him do an online bible word search on "Hell' and then asked him why all the modern bible translations in our house dont have the word Hell mentioned anywhere in the OT! That's 4500 years of Church history, Adam, the flood, the prophets, Moses and his 600 Laws, the enemies of Israel, and no mention of any eternal torture in hell!

And then I showed him that the word Hell is mentioned only 13 times in the N.T and were attributed to Jesus, but the word was not hell, but gehenna, a fiery city dump! And that those "Hell (Gehenna) fires have went out along time ago!

And then I asked him if perhaps he could explain to me why most pagan nations had as religious belief, A god that would judge the wicked, and send them to a fiery hell or the Egyptian Lake of Fire. So why would God REVEAL to the uninspired pagans about the fate of mankind 4000 years before ever revealing it in the book of Revelation to his own covenant people, especially after strictly forbidding anyone to take on any of the religious beliefs of the pagans and says "no good comes from them"?

I could tell immediately that he knew there was a serious problem with his belief that needed to be answered. I insisted that he research and get back to me so that my spirit could be at peace! 6 years later, I have no immediate family members who still believe in any hell! 

It just takes time mixed with love and compassion, and hopefully they will have the courage to admit to themselves that they never really bought into how a loving god and father could torture his children, and call it holy!

[rrich7]

Today I sent my a dad a link to an article on tentmaker. He called me & we got into a rather heated discussion  :sigh:

He in so many words told me that my I was leaning on my own understanding & not the Holy Spirit to show me the truth. That I wasn't seasoned enough in studying the word to truly understand,...
I still have a lot more to go through & learn & study, but for those of you who have had these conversations, is there any advice you can give? Any supporting scriptures I can use?

First, I find that quoting scriptures on U.R falls on deaf ears. They have their belief so engrained that their "Pillar verses to support Hell' override any other scriptures, no matter how compelling!

I told this one believer that I believe "Jesus Christ is the Savior of the WORLD, and that he didnt believe it! He said that he believed it too! I pulled out a world map and showed him all the countries that he has in his mind are going to hell! And that based on his belief, he only believed that Jesus Christ was the potential Savior of the World! His mind would not let him accept this simple obvious truth! That is what you are up against!

But when I started focusing on church history, there were too many facts that were irrefutable that U.R was the reigning doctrine of the church for its first 500 years. Its here that there is no defense, no mistranslated scripture verses can defend.

One example: I will share with you the pictures that were irrefutable and broke my own hell spell. To me "A PICTURE IS WORTH A THOUSAND WORDS!"

First Matt 25:46,
"Then they (Goats) will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
Now click this link and read the article:
http://mercynotsacrifice.blogspot.com/2008/01/ur-view-of-early-church-fathers.html


There are many more murals like those in the catacombs. it is interesting that the church does a sly of hand and skips over Matt 25:31;
31 "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as *the shepherd* separates the sheep from the goats*; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

*Who do the goats belong too?*

Another interesting fact is that there is no murals or mention of hell anywhere in those 1st and 2nd century catacombs!

Pictures like those sent me down a new path that I am still on today years later! Any discussion on early church history brings many unknown surprises to the E.T folks!

After I showed my dad those pictures, i then had him do an online bible word search on "Hell' and then asked him why all the modern bible translations in our house dont have the word Hell mentioned anywhere in the OT! That's 4500 years of Church history, Adam, the flood, the prophets, Moses and his 600 Laws, the enemies of Israel, and no mention of any eternal torture in hell!

And then I showed him that the word Hell is mentioned only 13 times in the N.T and were attributed to Jesus, but the word was not hell, but gehenna, a fiery city dump! And that those "Hell (Gehenna) fires have went out along time ago!

And then I asked him if perhaps he could explain to me why most pagan nations had as religious belief, A god that would judge the wicked, and send them to a fiery hell or the Egyptian Lake of Fire. So why would God REVEAL to the uninspired pagans about the fate of mankind 4000 years before ever revealing it in the book of Revelation to his own covenant people, especially after strictly forbidding anyone to take on any of the religious beliefs of the pagans and says "no good comes from them"?

I could tell immediately that he knew there was a serious problem with his belief that needed to be answered. I insisted that he research and get back to me so that my spirit could be at peace! 6 years later, I have no immediate family members who still believe in any hell! 

It just takes time mixed with love and compassion, and hopefully they will have the courage to admit to themselves that they never really bought into how a loving god and father could torture his children, and call it holy!

Thank you for this post! I was searching for history on "ancient " Christianity & this is a great source!