Hebrews 6:4-6 States that if you mess up you cant return?

[rrich7]

Hebrews 6:4-6 ESV 

For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit,  (5)  and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come,  (6)  and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt


I read this on a site online; any opinons?

[ed]

God is love.

Apostasy is not something that even the apostate is in control of.

Can't wait for the answers from the others.

Thanks for posting this.

.

[ed]

One thing in this that is important is that we are not talking about typical sin problems.  The Apostle Paul had his sin problems. 

Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

We are not talking about a "backsliden Christrian".  Christians often backslide because they don't feel that they can live up to what they think God expects of them.  The feel unworthy.

The apostate in Hebrews knows precisely what they are doing and why.

Hebres 4:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

The question I have to ask is, impossible for who?
It surly is not impossible for God to renew them to repentance.

.

[Seth]

Hebrews 6:4-6 ESV 

For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit,  (5)  and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come,  (6)  and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt


I read this on a site online; any opinons?

I actually wrote a thread addressing that. It might answer some questions: "It is impossible to renew"

[sheila]

notice it says in there..it is 'to their loss" and  it is a warning against falling away and the going

on to maturity...and the building on the foundation of repentance faith baptism,layingg on

of hands,resurrection and eternal judgement.   Let each worker be careful how he builds..

  the suffering of loss..yet saved as through the fire..is not reaching maturity..but an always

learning[and un-learning] and never coming to an accurate knowledge[maturity]

  Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful...

  but land that produces thorns and thistle's is worthless.....see Jude 1;7--16

   

[dajomaco]

For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit,  (5)  and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come,  (6)  and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt

For our battle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the world powers of this darkness,
against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavens. 13

The battle is for your mind.
We wrestle not against flesh and blood.
God seems to use ordinary faith filled believers.
 
It is impossible for that man to stand against the adversary.
Ritual replaces faith.

[Seth]

The beginning of Hebrews 6 is about moving on from the principles of doctrine. Growing to maturity. However...

Hebrews 6
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened....

8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

This we do if God permit. If God does not permit, we don't move on. According to John 15, some branches on the tree which produce no fruit are to be cut off and burned. As Paul said also, those who practice "deceivableness" God will send strong delusion that they will believe a lie and be judged. The judgment is believing a lie and all the negative consequences which come of that.

Hebrews 10
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

The Day of the Lord will destroy the works, but the builders will also be destroyed by the fire...

1 Thess 5
5 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

The builders will not escape the destruction of their houses. They shall be saved, they shall be salvaged from the destruction, but it will be FROM their destruction. That is how they suffer loss. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

[JulieTang84]

Heb 10:29 punisment

Transliteration
timōria
Pronunciation
tē-mō-rē'-ä (Key) 
Part of Speech
feminine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
From τιμωρέω (G5097)
Entry
Trench's Synonyms: vii. τιμωρία, κόλασις.
Outline of Biblical Usage   
1.a rendering help
2. assistance
3. vengeance, punishment, penalty

1 Thes 5:3 Destruction
Transliteration
olethros
Pronunciation
o'-le-thros (Key) 
Part of Speech
masculine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
From a primary ollumi (to destroy, a prolonged form)
Outline of Biblical Usage
1. ruin, destroy, death
   a)  for the destruction of the flesh, said of the external ills and troubles by which the lusts of the flesh are subdued and destroyed

I know it will be glorious day indeed when Father through Christ brings his flock home. The word punish is a misplaced in Hebrews 20:39 The rendering of help is much closer to the mark as it is the primary meaning. Also, this with Micha's (book) as Father being as a laundres soap.

As for the word destruction used in 1 Thes 5:3. This must occur before Physical death as the dead know nothing.

I am speaking now of what I have been told by family members. One is a RN and has been present at the time of death of many, many people. She says there are sometimes noticeable (spiritual) changes in the room. Sometimes st the time of passing a wonderful sense of LOVE and peace is felt, while at other times the room takes on a very heavy vibe and my sister cannot remain in their long. She believes these are entering Hell.

I have personally only ever felt a gentle love like a new page in a book and total calmness that belies the grief I have felt.

Of course this is not spelled out in Scriptute, but it is interesting how prevelant this expirence is. Jesus said that there will be great gnashing of teeth and much wailing during the cleansing process. I just wonder why so.e whom die seem to leave a spirit suffering the same.

I am merely sharing, but could it be Satan that is being pulled out ithe Spirit returning to Father?

Love Always, Julie  :HeartThrob:

[WhiteWings]

Heb 10:29 punisment

Transliteration
timōria

Short interuption.... :winkgrin:
Timora is used only once in the NT.
Heb 10:29 Of how much worse punishment, are you supposing,.....
You=the people who have no clue what they are talking about. Not Father, Son or anyone under guidance of the HS.

Jesus always used: Kolasis punishment  (corrective/restorative/pruning)
Opposed to timora punishment. (Retributive punishment/vengeance)

Carry on :laughing7:

[Seth]

Heb 10:29 punisment

Transliteration
timōria
Pronunciation
tē-mō-rē'-ä (Key) 
Part of Speech
feminine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
From τιμωρέω (G5097)
Entry
Trench's Synonyms: vii. τιμωρία, κόλασις.
Outline of Biblical Usage   
1.a rendering help
2. assistance
3. vengeance, punishment, penalty

1 Thes 5:3 Destruction
Transliteration
olethros
Pronunciation
o'-le-thros (Key) 
Part of Speech
masculine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
From a primary ollumi (to destroy, a prolonged form)
Outline of Biblical Usage
1. ruin, destroy, death
   a)  for the destruction of the flesh, said of the external ills and troubles by which the lusts of the flesh are subdued and destroyed

I know it will be glorious day indeed when Father through Christ brings his flock home. The word punish is a misplaced in Hebrews 20:39 The rendering of help is much closer to the mark as it is the primary meaning.

If I look at the context, it doesn't seem to support that to me:

Hebrews 10
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Hebrews 10 is clearly a warning from my perspective. Some other contexts:

Acts 22:5
as the high priest and all the Council can themselves testify. I (Saul of Tarsus) even obtained letters from them to their associates in Damascus, and went there to bring these people as prisoners to Jerusalem to be punished (timoreo)

Acts 26:11
And I punished (timoreo) them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities..

As for the word destruction used in 1 Thes 5:3. This must occur before Physical death as the dead know nothing.

The dead will be resurrected. Blessed are those in the first resurrection, for they shall not be hurt unto the second death.

[gregoryfl]

This word is also used a few times in the Tanach in the following places:

Scourges are preparing for the intemperate, and punishments likewise for fools.
(Pro 19:29 Brenton)

For they will suddenly punish the ungodly, and who can know the vengeance inflicted by both?
(Pro 24:22 Brenton)

Establish to yourself overseers! Execute punishment! Give your heart to your shoulders in the way in which you were going! Return, O virgin Israel! Return unto your cities mourning!
(Jer 31:21 ABP)

Do these uses help us to understand the word in the context of Hebrews?

Ronen

[Seth]

This word is also used a few times in the Tanach in the following places:

Scourges are preparing for the intemperate, and punishments likewise for fools.
(Pro 19:29 Brenton)

For they will suddenly punish the ungodly, and who can know the vengeance inflicted by both?
(Pro 24:22 Brenton)

Establish to yourself overseers! Execute punishment! Give your heart to your shoulders in the way in which you were going! Return, O virgin Israel! Return unto your cities mourning!
(Jer 31:21 ABP)

Do these uses help us to understand the word in the context of Hebrews?

Ronen

I'd say so. When I look at the context of Hebrews: "He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment..."

Doesn't that show us that there is a punishment worse than dying physically? I can attest to that as someone who once suffered terrible depression. People commit suicide for the things the Prodigal Son experiences in Christ's parable. Again, I am an example of it.

[JulieTang84]

I choose to live the truth and let Father handle the rest. Never forget what Love is...bowing out.....

:HeartThrob: Julie

[JulieTang84]

Yes Seth depression is the more horrible than anyone could imagine. Much worse than death.  :friendstu:

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

Yes it definitely is. Sometimes when children refuse to listen, you have to let them reap the consequences of their actions. I've done it with my child before, and it works. It makes them remember...

[FreeAtLast]

Just a thought here

these verses are talking about Christians here.

another scripture in the new testament says that if the believers became as the drunks in that time that they would suffer just as the unbelievers .

of course im Preterist and this hinges my view of these scriptures--those who fell away or began sinning willfully in that day would fall into the hands of the Living God.

Could it be that the scriptures were really referring to them being overcome and destroyed with the rest of the unbelieving jews at AD 70 when the Roman armies surrounded the city and over 1 million jews were destroyed ?? and the city was destroyed ??

He did tell Christians to flee into the mountains and get out of the city when they saw the armies compassing about the city--he had a place for his children to keep them safe when the wrath was poured out on the ungodly and unbelieving Jews.

But if they were drunk or too busy sinning away in the city where they lived and not heeding the master's words---then they were destroyed with the rest.

Just some thoughts here   :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

[marie glen]

Just a thought here

these verses are talking about Christians here.

another scripture in the new testament says that if the believers became as the drunks in that time that they would suffer just as the unbelievers .

of course im Preterist and this hinges my view of these scriptures--those who fell away or began sinning willfully in that day would fall into the hands of the Living God.

Could it be that the scriptures were really referring to them being overcome and destroyed with the rest of the unbelieving jews at AD 70 when the Roman armies surrounded the city and over 1 million jews were destroyed ?? and the city was destroyed ??

He did tell Christians to flee into the mountains and get out of the city when they saw the armies compassing about the city--he had a place for his children to keep them safe when the wrath was poured out on the ungodly and unbelieving Jews.

But if they were drunk or too busy sinning away in the city where they lived and not heeding the master's words---then they were destroyed with the rest.

Just some thoughts here   :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

hi! I believe that is true! I agree with that way of reading it ..and I believe it is also true at the end of man's ages (at the consummation/outcome of the ages of men allowed to seemingly run things).. :smile: :Peace2:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: IMO......this is another one of those sections where having awareness of the audience is vital to understanding what is being said.

It's the book of HEBREWS, written to the Jews that had been "completed", been partakers of the Holy Spirit, and of the baptism of the Holy Ghost. It was a warning to them, that they could not go back denying their experience or the Messiah who forgave them, and live as "normal" Jews anymore, which would have been as if they had crucified Him AGAIN. THEY crucified Him once already.

In other words, backsliding was not an option for the ones who either were present, or who were consenting to what was done to Him. They were extra accountable because they had the scriptures of the time, which they had heard all of their lives, and to add the reality of the Spirit working in them, and THEN to turn back was to be unacceptable!

His forgiveness removed the stain of that blood on their hands from the first time, but if they dared to do it again, swift judgment would follow. Unto whom much is given, much is expected. They were given much, and much was required. My  :2c: Blessings.....

[thetruthprospector]

I agree with Cardinal. Hebrews as was galatians was telling the beleivers in Christ that they could not go back to the Jewish LAw to be saved. The covenants progress in a time line in the Bible. You can not undo things that GOd has done.  A sheep or goat will not cleanse sin,, after the LAMB of GOD did it once and for all. The false apostles were Jews. The enemies of the Gospel were Jews. In race? not necesarily although at this time probably mostly. But it was not about race, that is there own religion. It is about not redoing things by going back into works! That is why it is impossible. read the context of how  the writter of Hebrews (I think it was Paul) was laying it our line by line how Jesus is the High Priest and made the sacrifice one time and for all time.  Hebrews is like Galatians "I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain." If people want to replace Jesus with another Jesus as Paul was warning them in Galatians, or replace the Gospel with the "other" heteros gospel and go back to worshiping Jewish Law instead of the faith of Jesus. Well yeah it is going to put a damper on things.  But the key word here in Hebrews if the word "IF".

"It is impossible for people who have been enlightened, etc etc IF they fall away...... The translater the damn translaters.   Why did they translate "kai" here as if. It should be and. So then the verses say just the opposite. If you have been enlightened it is impossible to fall away.

"For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit,    and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come,  and  fall away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt." To me this is just saying it is IMPOSSIBLE to do something God has done ONE time Twice.

[thetruthprospector]

Take a look at Galatians ( I am reading that today) It is about how dangerous the leaven of the Pharisees was. The traditions of men. they used to be the oral traditions but now have been written in the Bavli Talmud.   Galatians 2:21 "I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain." Look at the word "frustrate" atheteo in Greek and the same used by our Lord in Mark 7:9 "And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition" They were anti Christ. and their teaching has always been anti christ.  Works will not save you! Not your own works in any means. You are not capable to save yourself one iota. it is the FAITH of JESUS. Anything else is "the other gospel" see GAlatians 1:6 "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another(heteros) gospel:  Another is the word "heteros" meaning another of a different kind, or "the" other gospel. and in Gal 1:7 "Which is not another(allos); but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. This "gospel" is not another way to salvation. Allos is another, just another like any gospel can save you. No that is the lie. there is no other gospel. Galatians 2:20 "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."  The only life we live "in our flesh" is by the faith of the Son of God. It is not our own faith, which is too weak to do it. We must look to the FAITH of JESUS to change us. So even if you mess up how many times will HE forgive you? Come on man, it can't mean what you are thinking it means! That is what the religious people did, they have us so programed that Hebrews which was written to Religious (Jewish) CHristians is twisted or perverted to mean the opposite of what it means. JESUS CANNOT DIE TWICE ON THE CROSS. But thank God HE DID HAVE THE FAITH TO DO IT ONCE :Peace2:

[Seth]

"It is impossible for people who have been enlightened, etc etc IF they fall away...... The translater the damn translaters.   Why did they translate "kai" here as if. It should be and. So then the verses say just the opposite. If you have been enlightened it is impossible to fall away.

I think the word "and" doesn't really change the meaning for me. It's impossible for people who have been enlightened and they fall away to be renewed again unto repentance....

If I compare Hebrews 6 to other scriptures, it follows:

2 Peter 2
20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. 22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A dog returns to its own vomit," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

I believe Hebrews 6 is speaking of the same thing. Why return to the fire of wickedness? It's better not to have had knowledge of the Lord in the first place, than to be once again entangled, because you become worse than before. That's why it's impossible to renew unto repentance, that's why we go on to maturity "if God permit." God may turn us over to our own works if we return to our vomit.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I think so too. Whatever the Jews did, newbie converts or the old regime, it was all for our example. If they didn't escape the law of sowing and reaping, neither will we. Blessings...

[Seth]

 :iagree: Better to reap from a good harvest of good trees than a bad one.

[thetruthprospector]

1) So I have heard it said, if you continually willingly sin, you will be in that bad place.  Well if you have become as hardened as a Satanist and hate God and willingly try to serve your lord Satan. or if you have been a "christian" and through some really hard tests you find yourself with a "I don't give a +(*& attitude" due to bitterness and you go the other way. What is going to happen then?  I have already been there once (well not the Worship satan part) but lets Go Satan and do it your way part. Yet God has called me back. If I do it again then what?  Sometimes it seems that up is down and down is up. I can understand why some people end up worshipping lucifer.  Just interested in your opinions.

2) I have a second question, that I think is in this same line. I have been reading the scriptures KJV (trying a to every day) and I have arrived at Ephesians. It has always been a powerful message to me. But now looking at it again through different eyes. (well ever day we have different eyes don't we?)

Leading up to verse Eph 1:13 "ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise" Paul seems to be saying that that is for those who trusted the gospel. So I ask what is it to be sealed with the Holy spirit? Eph 1:14 "Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."  I always understood this as receiving the Holy spirit as they did in Acts when Paul preached and that the token of the holy spirit was the gaurantee for future redemption. I alway felt assured that I was "saved" because I manifested the holy spirit by speaking in tongues. Even when I was in lost in the deepest sins (well to me they were) I though it meant I still had my inner man, christ in me and that was my proof, albeit  my soul and body were being saved until that perfect day.

So in reading Ephesians it is starting to unravel to me anew in that just maybe this letter really is written to all man kind and not just a chosen "few" Maybe it is Gods intention to "gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:"  Eph 1:10

But why the distinction, those who trust the gospel?

which made me question my understanding of romans 10:9 and 10.

In the Way ministry we were taught that "that is thou shalt confess" mean silently or out loud. Some Christians say confessing is to be public. Some say it requires water baptism. we just believed you said a prayer in your heart to God "that Jesus is Lord" because you believed in your heart that God raised Him from the dead. At that point I had always assumed ( for the last 40 years) I was born again. and I had received "eternal life" and I had the seed of eternal life,the new man, the gift from the Giver and I had the proof.  Even if I did not obey I was saved by grace (in the innerman at least) and I could not loose that.

But now i am not sure.  at 61.  so, I have been looking lookin and looking. I see there is an arguemnet amongst christians about "Lordship salvation" where you must make Jesus lord over all your life, all your sins (spurgeon) and then you get the Eternal life. But I agreed with the other side that that is works for salvation and no one can honestly do that coming from being dead in sin. that would not be grace at all.

I leant toward if you just heard the gospel as they did in acts. those who beleived in the cross and the ressurection, those who really beleive in their heart wouls receive the promise from the Father that was culminated in Jerusalem on the day of pentecost.  Now I wonder what does it mean to confess? is this works?

and is "thou shalt be saved" a one time deal in the spiritual man and then a continous process until the final redepmtion?  How do you preach? romans 10:9 and 10 then?  All I know is I am glad I have had the witness of the holy spirit to carry me through the time where I did make my bed in "hell" and I am praying I don;t end up going back.

[Seth]

Works are not bad in themselves. Works of the Law cannot save, but the reason Jesus gives us the Holy Spirit through faith is to save us from spiritual death in the carnal mind, and therefore affect our works. If someone is "alienated from God in their minds by wicked works" (Colossians 1:21), the solution is to change the works. For example, nobody is saved from heroin addiction through faith alone. They are saved from heroin addiction by the work of ceasing to use heroin any longer. Christ provides the empowerment to be saved from both the carnal mind and the works which result from death in the carnal mind. Works have everything to do with salvation, along with faith, just not works of the Law.