Why Persecution?

[Seth]

He said they hated him because He testified that their works were wicked.  He straight out exposed

their unrighteousness and hypocrisy.  the truth hurts at times. the world loves it's own..and

because He is no part of the world..it hates Him.  He tesify that that the Prince of this world's

works were wicked.

    Yes...He exposed sin...so that it could be confessed of,repented of..forgiven of and healed of.

  that is how 'love' covers sin.   Because ye say ...'I have no sin' your sins remain[you will die in your

sin]

Amen

Acts 4
4 And as they (the Apostles) spake unto the people, the priests, and the captain of the temple, and the Sadducees, came upon them,
2 Being grieved that they taught the people, and preached through Jesus the resurrection from the dead.
3 And they laid hands on them, and put them in hold unto the next day: for it was now eventide.

Peter had just gotten done healing a man, and it caught their attention. But the minute he preached about Jesus, watch out....

[Seth]

Copying whole post again for Seth who does not seem to have the courage to stand by his own words.

Read below where Seth clearly states His teaching got him killed, not his healing or feelings of love, etc.

Yes Seth you said it. Also please read in full John 5:8-20 (beliw) and learn why he was persecuted.  :HeartThrob

It was his healing that they took exception too and that he called Father, His Father.

Do not ever try to say it was not what Jesus did that caused some to hate him, when Scripture says differently.
Of course I am not saying that Jesus did not speak harshly to those who hated him. Say what you want, but Jesus was perfect and He spoke every word given him by Father who is perfect Love.

Pleasr, this is not an I am right and you are wrong, BUT a public forum where TRUTH must always come before anything else.

Love Always, Julie  :HeartThrob:

It wasn't JUST his healing, it was the fact that he healed on the Sabbath. It contradicted his doctrine. So, yes, the fact that he healed on the Sabbath was part of why he was persecuted, but that underlines my essential point: He contradicted their doctrine.

They didn't persecute him when he healed on any other day. And certainly, feelings of love alone had nothing to do with why they persecuted him. If he simply felt feelings, on the Sabbath he wouldn't have been persecuted.

When he healed outside the Sabbath, they as much admitted that it wasn't the works that made them angry, but because of what he said.

[Seth]

BTW, Julie, you are throwing alot of accusations at me, of bullying you, and being a coward. I really don't think that is appropriate. I am simply expressing what I believe. I have not attacked you personally, but you are doing it to me. I never bullied you. I simply stated what I believed.

Can you please resist the urge to call me a coward and a bully, when I have done nothing to attack you personally?

[JulieTang84]

Believe what you want Seth. Your intolerance towards me is obvious.

Father is pushing me to leave this forum, and it breaks my heart for I am not the shameless monster you take me for.

There is more love, tolerance, patience, forgiveness and kindness in my puppy, than I have seen here for a long time.

I am not perfect and never said I was. I was broken and discarded and Father pulled me up from the ashes. I one day pray that you find the absolute peace and assurance that you so desperately seek.

Nothing matters Seth other that you love everyone as you love yourself, because until you do, your love for Father is just as intolerant. Jesus gave those commandments for a reason, way before any gospel wad written. HE WAS THE GOSPEL!!!!!

I have likely burned a bridge beyond repair, but that is fine because Love will always build a new one.

This is not easy but I cannot be true to Father by being untrue to myself. The Spirit of LOVE fills creation and can be found most everywhere. Contrary to what you think, I do love you and I would give everything Father has given me to you in an instant if I only could.

Love Julie  :girlheart:

[Seth]

Believe what you want Seth. Your intolerance towards me is obvious.

Father is pushing me to leave this forum, and it breaks my heart for I am not the shameless monster you take me for.

I don't think you are a monster. This is not a personal conversation to me as it is for you. I just had a thought and expressed it.

Nothing matters Seth other that you love everyone as you love yourself, because until you do, your love for Father is just as intolerant. Jesus gave those commandments for a reason, way before any gospel wad written. HE WAS THE GOSPEL!!!!!

I have to disagree, and I don't mean that as a personal attack. Just a different way of seeing things. That's what a forum is: a place to air out opinions and thoughts and discuss them. I just think there is more to it than loving, unless we include preaching the truth of Jesus Christ as an act of love, in which case we are in total agreement.

I have likely burned a bridge beyond repair

Not with me. I am just hoping we can discuss things without personal attacks, that's all. There are many things that you have said in our discussions that I agree with and have told you so, when I agreed.

[jabcat]

I've been asked to look at this, so I'll take this opportunity to mention a few things.  One of the main reasons we ask folks to share things in the structure and attitude of "as I understand", "I believe", and "IMO" is, otherwise, strongly expressed absolute declarations can SOUND like "I have the truth*, I've got it figured out, and you're wrong".  Of course that can quickly lead to personal affronts, insults, etc  - to the PERSON, rather than discussing our best understandings at the moment.  [*I think we can exclude absolute basic premises of the faith, i.e., "Jesus is Lord, Jesus is God's Son", direct quotes of scriptures etc..anything we can easily go to scripture and say "here it is" - plainly, without a lot of interpretation,etc.].

Then when we do start accusing individuals personally, talking about character, etc., rather than challenging/questioning beliefs/statements, we're really getting into an area that's not allowed on the boards, i.e., personal attacks. 

(I do it myself - anything I say here is also good for me - you know, the old "one finger pointing, three fingers pointing back") but I've noticed recently that there is a pretty constant flow of sort of general, catch-all, absolute statements.  Approximate examples of that might be, "it doesn't matter what...";   or "the only thing that's important is...";  or "the only way to God is through [kindness]".  Well, IMO, for that particular example, that wouldn't be entirely accurate.  It has a modicum of truth in it, but I believe searched out in scriptural soundness, one would find that although God is kind,  He expects kindness from us, His works in us produce that - still, scripturally, I don't believe it's sound that it's THE ONLY way to God, as might be stated.  So if those types of statements are made, IMO, it's likely often going to be questioned or challenged;  "can you show me what you base that on", or "I disagree, I see it this way and here's why [which since this a Christ-centered discussion forum, it will likely be from scripture]..."   The reason being, folks are searching for and standing for truth and such mis-statments can bring confusion into the picture.  So similar mis-statments or distortions - even vague or "just not quite right" ones - might be questioned, .  Which is really OK on a discussion forum, AS LONG AS it's done with the other expectations mentioned above - not personal attacking, stating in the spirit of "as I understand", and generally, not as debate but rather discussion.

I should be off and on tonight, can either discuss further here or by PM as needed..thanks, James.

[rosered]

  I respect that James !! :thumbsup:

Thanks for the  message

Trying to keep the  flow of unity in Christ without offending anyone 
  mostly just read  posts  these days

[jabcat]

Well rose, if all of us were like you, we wouldn't need no stinkin' moderation   :laughing7:

[rosered]

Well rose, if all of us were like you, we wouldn't need no stinkin' moderation   :laughing7:

Ha ! James  , I am afraid it might become a very dead forum  if all were like me  :sigh:


  I am  thankful for everyone  and   we all need the peace of Jesus resting on and in us

[jabcat]

amen, we do

by the way, i didn't mean because you're not saying much...it was meant as a compliment   :thumbsup:   :2c:   

[rosered]

amen, we do

by the way, i didn't mean because you're not saying much...it was meant as a compliment   :thumbsup:   :2c:   

I know lol ..    and thank you    but was just  kidding Bro J !   there would be nothing to read if  that was the case    ! ha !

[jabcat]

:)

by far, most folks are gracious, kind, and things go very well...there's just been some specific recent issues and tension, I was asked about it, and thought I'd post some thoughts...probably could have been handled by PM, but maybe reminders don't hurt for any of us,  even if not directly/specifically applying to all   :2c:

[rosered]

:)

by far, most folks are gracious, kind, and things go very well...there's just been some specific recent issues and tension, I was asked about it, and thought I'd post some thoughts...probably could have been handled by PM, but maybe reminders don't hurt for any of us,  even if not directly/specifically applying to all   :2c:

I totally agree with you , its always good to be reminded   and  Gods  grace applied towards one another is a blessing for us all  no doubt  :friendstu:

[micah7:9]

Persecution?
The only time perecution is read in OT Lam 5:5  Our necks are under persecution: we labour, and have no rest.
Persecution H7291 râdaph A primitive root; to run after (usually with hostile intent

Persecution G1375 diōgmos From G1377; persecution: from G1377 (to flee;  to pursue (literally or figuratively); by implication to persecute: - ensue, follow (after), given to, (suffer) persecute (-ion), press toward. compare the base of G1169 and G1249); to pursue (literally or figuratively); by implication to persecute: - ensue, follow (after), given to, (suffer) persecute (-ion), press toward.

G1169 deilos  (dread); timid, that is, (by implication) faithless: - fearful.

G1249 diakonos to run on errands; compare G1377); an attendant, that is, (generally) a waiter (at table or in other menial duties); specifically a Christian teacher and pastor (technically a deacon or deaconess): - deacon, minister, servant.

So persecution maybe just running from the faith? Rather than standing, we cower? I don't know, but I kinda believe we all, me included, have looked at persecution  from a different perspective. Maybe I need to be corrected. Then again, it could be very well looking it's through that glass "darkly" we all like to speak of. :2c:

[Seth]

The persecuted early church was running from the faith?

[sheila]

no..thedragon was full of wrath and running after the woman that birthed the manchild..and the

remnant of her seed..that have the testimony of Jesus.

  pursue..run after...persecute....

[micah7:9]

Don't know. Do you? I just gave the definitions, it is just as much a wonder to me. Today, it seems persecution and what it means today, is somewhat different than what I posted.
You Seth, seem to have answers that others don't, let's hear it. I ain't trying to be a wise guy, but seeing the definitions of then and what theology and religion has told  us "we" today to accept is somewhat different.

[Seth]

Ok, let's take the word persecution out of it. What I am saying is that suffering of the early church up until today ( you see it in Egypt and in UR) like with Christ, happened not because they were producing fruit of the Spirit in attitude and miracles but specifically for contradicting the belief systems of the people around them, particularly and mostly through preaching.

[micah7:9]

Which is biblical

[rosered]

The persecuted early church was running from the faith?

I believe persecution for the early church was mainly a matter of doctrine, not fruit.

Hi Seth  I was reading this   thread and   than it got " hairy "lol   

But I agree that   Jesus  teaching / doctine   was NEW  and it come from the Father at the appointed time [fulness of time ]Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: 


Gal 4:4   But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,    Gal 4:5   To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. 


Gal 4:6   And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. 
Gal 4:7   Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ. 

Jhn 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

Mar 1:22 And they were astonished at his doctrine: for he taught them as one that had authority, and not as the scribes.
Mar 1:27 And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned among themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine is this? for with authority commandeth he even the unclean spirits, and they do obey him.


  and the  ploting began   against Him

  I believe the same sufferings  of Christ cannot be compared to the glory that follows

  so  we have to suffer in the same  manner as the  early Church / Body of Christ  had  , with the NEW and LIVING WAY   

   to suffer also means "to put up" with   as well as "be attacked"   and even killed for what you believe   , its a going over and against type thing
  I looked at the cross and the enemies of the Cross of Christ   ,  for me that is just  going back to the old   works  of   the law of moses  [  those sitting   in  the seat of moses ] Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

and noted how Paul  changed   and says this here about having the same mind and walk in the SPIRIT OF CHRIST IN GOD I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. 
Phl 3:15   Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. 


Phl 3:16   Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing. 
Phl 3:17  Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. 


Phl 3:18  (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 
Phl 3:19   Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.) 


Phl 3:20   For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: 


Phl 3:21   Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
For me its the same Body / True Church  = CHRIST

the cross 4717 stauroo   to impale   "figurativly "  to extinguish [sudue] passion   "put out "stop  crucify

passions  3804  pathema  [Gal 5 ;24  ] hardship   ,pain  emotion  influence  , affection, afflictions , suffering  on the mind  [crown of thorns ] comes to mind on this  thought for me

  what you set your heart upon

Gal   5 :24  Now those  who belong to Christ   have crucified the flesh  with its passions and desires  25 If we live in the Spirit  let us also walk in the Spirit

  Have enjoyed the  posts  and finally  spoke up  :icon_flower:

[JulieTang84]

James, I was totally out of line and I let me emotions flair. I will stand and own this. I will say in all honesty that I have truly felt victimized and persecuted myself. Strange Huh considering the title of this thread. BUT it always takes two and I was one of them. I have nothing but LOVE and respect for Seth, even though we may differ on a few points.

I am going to be straight out honest here. This is a site devoted to Universal Reconciliation for ALL. The word DEATH should NEVER be mentioned. EVER!
   
Rom 6:11
In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

There is no good news in DEATH and it mocks what Paul said above. If we should believe in UR, should we not ONLY EVER talk about LIFE in Christ Jesus? This was the GoodNews He taught. This was his Gospel. His two commandments circumvented all of the prophets and every law.

Surely I am not the only one who see's the significance of this?

Jhn 15:1
"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.

Jhn 15:2
He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunesfn so that it will be even more fruitful.

Jhn 15:3
You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.

Jhn 15:4
Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

Jhn 15:5
"I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

Jhn 15:6
If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

Jhn 15:7
If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.

Jhn 15:8
This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

Jhn 15:9
"As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love.

Jhn 15:10
If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commands and remain in his love. Surely including the two Greatest

Jhn 15:11
I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete.

Jhn 15:12
My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.

Jhn 15:13
Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends.

Jhn 15:14
You are my friends if you do what I command.

Jhn 15:15
I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.

Jhn 15:16
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.

Jhn 15:17
This is my command: Love each other.

Jhn 15:18
"If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first.

Jhn 15:19
If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.

Jhn 15:20
Remember what I told you: 'A servant is not greater than his master.'fn If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also.

Jhn 15:21
They will treat you this way because of my name, for they do not know the one who sent me.

Jhn 15:22
If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin.

Jhn 15:23
Whoever hates me hates my Father as well.

Jhn 15:24
If I had not done among them the works no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. As it is, they have seen, and yet they have hated both me and my Father.

Jhn 15:25
But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: 'They hated me without reason.'fn

Jhn 15:26
"When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me.

Jhn 15:27
And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning.
NIV Footnotes

(15:2) The Greek for he prunes also means he cleans. 
(15:20) John 13:16 
(15:25) Psalms 35:19; 69:4 
   

James may I ask if you believe that the SPIRIT of TRUTH can be trusted? I have many times spoke about Spirit andI feel deeply that it is a very touchy subject? But should it be?

Paul States:
Gal 5:18
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
   
Gal 6:8
Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

Of course I am the pot calling the kettle black; however, while we are on this subject....

2Cr 3:6
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

2Cr 3:7
Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was,

2Cr 3:8
will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?    :dsunny:

The Ministry of the Spirit (of Love and Truth)   :dsunny: :dsunny:   :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

I have been told that there is more to the Gospels than Love, but there truly isn't. I am not talking touchy feely love. I am talking fully about the SPIRIT of LOVE, I am talking of Worshiping in Spirit, ministering in Spirit of Love which is TRUTH.

Yet this is mute, if Jesus's words cannot be trusted OR the Words of the Spirit not worthy.

Jhn 15:26
"When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me.

These words are either believed or Not.

To Jesus, the Gospel was much, much more than words:

1Jo 2:6
Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

1Jo 2:8
Yet I am writing you a new command; its truth is seen in him and in you, because the darkness is passing and the true light is already shining.

1Jo 2:9
Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates a brother or sisterfn is still in the darkness.

1Jo 2:20
But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.

1Jo 2:27
As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.



These are the words (and many more like them) of my heart.

James and Seth, I believe absolutely vs 27.  "You don't need anyone to teach you." Means just one thing and one thing only. There isn't a SINGLE thing can be learned that will ADD to the Truth that has been given through the anointing. Oh there are certainly unanswered questions and always will be, but Faith and Trust mandate that answers are unneeded.

The section in Red is of paramount importance: The anointing teaches you about ALL THINGS and is real, NOT COUNTERFEIT.  It is just as it taught you - 1 John 2:27

We are Told that there is no LONGER a need to Lean on our Understanding (Pro 3:5) In fact understanding is no longer required.

I truly believe that I am not the only one who has been the beneficiary of Knowledge from the Spirit of Truth, that even the threat of death or torture could ever cause it to be renounced.

Everything taught can be and should be verified via Scripture.

This is a joyous, glorious ministry and we should be shining  :dsunny: for the whole world to see.

I do apologize for my little tantrum. Sorry Seth  :friendstu:

Love You ALL, Julie  :HeartThrob:

[jabcat]

James, I was totally out of line and I let me emotions flair. I will stand and own this.    

OK, that's fine.  Nothing was personal to me. 

I am going to be straight out honest here. This is a site devoted to Universal Reconciliation for ALL. The word DEATH should NEVER be mentioned. EVER!
   

Did you absorb the first part of my post, about posting "as I understand", etc.  vs. declaring absolutes?  IMO, the above is an example of declaring something, that really, is just an opinion.  One person's.  It may or may not be true.  Honestly, I don't think it's even a rational statement.  The scriptures often talk of death, in many ways.  So though I don't agree with your statement, I understand it's your opinion.  However, you state it as an absolute, universal fact.  I don't understand that.

I really don't know if it would do any good to go point by point with everything else in your post, especially the conclusions you draw or are trying to support with such a varied array of scriptures - despite their contexts, who's being primarily addressed, and about what, etc.  My opinion probably would have little effect. 

You did say, "I've been told there's more to the gospels than love, but there truly isn't".  As I suggested in my post, if you continue to make statements such as this, they will likely be questioned from time to time, asked to show why you believe that's so, or at least clarify what you mean by such an overall, generalized statement.  Maybe not, but probably so.  Folks here tend to want to know how beliefs line up with the scriptures.  We're funny that way.

As far as "do I trust the Spirit"?  Of course.  What I don't trust is peoples' (including my own) imagination, feelings, declarations they may have just dreamed up based on who knows what (experiences, influences, etc.), twisting the meaning of scripture to their personal point of view, satan's deceit, etc... So beyond that, I'm not sure what you're asking.  If it's just accept everything at face value because someone says it and I'm supposed to believe they are just absolutely filled with the spirit of all truth and therefor have absolutely no need to reason or explore things, then probably not.   :dontknow:

[JulieTang84]

 :doh:  (I never said I was smart)


Yes of course. Those parts that you pulled out SHOULD have been fronted with: "All what I write now is according to the Spirit I have been given. I am merely sharing"


I will do my very best to remember this going forward.


As for Death. There is the death of the physical and the Life of the Spiritual. All of us should be dead to Sin.


I come from a varied church background and grew up listening to God and Torture, God and Death, God and Punishment. There was never anything good in that.


I posted a Scripture where Jesus (John 15:8) said it is to Fathers Glory that we bear much fruit


So seeing how UR does not believe in death, why is it discussed. This is an honest question.


Thank you James, you are an excellent arbiter.   :gimmefive:


Love Julie  :girlheart:

[micah7:9]

Hey Julie, this is just me, but I feel you need to grasp some patience and listen to some of the words that some on the forum project and offer. Some have their own "way," and then their are some who are offering how the Lord has revealed a bit of His mystery to them.
Slow down, I believe you are new, new maybe 6 mo. to years, still I have found some very sound foundations from some of these folks as well as some light. I am still learning, when I stop and reread and re read some things posted I even learn more.
I have found there are some who get on here and want or desire to swing you, win you over. I am pretty well set in a good foundation, it's pretty scriptural. I have been reprimanded more than once for my speak, and I have found that good for my growing. It just seems to me that you didn't take the advice you gave yourself, back off and regroup. You have heart, a good heart...you cant get it all out and you never will unless you learn and the LEARNING NEVER STOPS :dsunny:

[rosered]

   Well thats just it   Micah and Julie
  you never know what helps and what does not  help at all  or even whom it helps 
 
for the most part none of us really know what we are going to post when reading the forum do we ?

I know for me  some times the Spirit of God does move in a  mystery   though others  sparking a little light that   helps me  , it reminds me to keep my mind on the things of God and not  the things that is going on in the world at large
or even why things are going on as they do ..
I have always thought , its the way we think   that changes back and forth , its  wearing  out  so many  folks  and am guilty of doing this  also

  minding the heavely things in hope or just focusing on  our little world  and begin to feel sorry for ourselves   :sigh:   , that when I know I am in trouble  AGAIN  and start asking for some help from God to stop that foolishness
  get a grip  and rebuke those thoughts in Jesus name ,  oh  yes I do that  regular  now , and it helps ,   God helps us !   and always thank Jesus for not giving up  on me yet  , that is a comfort somehow

  Should sent this pm , but maybe someone else will know what  this means exactly 
do we help or do we hinder  ?
only God knows for sure

  peace