Why Persecution?

[Seth]

A thought popped into my head and I wanted to make an observation.  Jesus said that they will hate you but they hated me first (paraphrase). We have been discussing in this forum lately how that BELIEF and FRUIT are both necessary in the Gospel.

I was thinking about what in the Bible triggers the persecution: The fruit or the preaching?

The FRUIT is the kindness, the growth in grace, putting away following the fleshy desires, basically being as loving a person as possible. Does that get people persecuted? I don't think so. People love when you love them. The PREACHING says: You must believe in Jesus Christ and not your other Gods.

Isn't that where the tempers begin to rise? Isn't that where the early Church fell into the hands of persecution both from the Jews and the Romans? UR folks are no strangers to it. We don't get kicked out of our churches for being nice, forgiving, and loving people, even though we strive toward that. So why do we get thrown out? Because we say their doctrine is wrong (even if we don't put it in those words) and nobody takes to that very well, no matter how nicely you say it.

I believe persecution for the early church was mainly a matter of doctrine, not fruit.

[JulieTang84]

Love, they cannot abide that anyone is more loving than themselves.

Anything to do with love motivated anything is just gasoline on a fire.

For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten Son to save the world, BUT NOT YOU  UR'S.

Sorry

Julie

[Seth]

The Pharisees persecuted Christ what he said not what he did, they literally said that. they sought to kill him because he spoke the truth about himself and them

[JulieTang84]

The Pharisees persecuted Christ what he said not what he did, they literally said that. they sought to kill him because he spoke the truth about himself and them

And what did he talk about Seth? THE TRUTH was all about LOVE and it Threatened the status quo, just the way it does in the church today. What did Jesus say to you? That was not based on LOVE?

:HeartThrob: Julie :girlheart:

[Seth]

they sought to stone him because he said he was the son of God. They didn't like that very much

[JulieTang84]

The son of love.......they knew God is love

[Seth]

he called himself the Son of God. They considered it blasphemy. The early church was persecuted for preaching the name of Jesus.

[Seth]

the life of Christ is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. He healed and did all kinds good things out of love which made him very popular. Big crowds followed him. But what he SPOKE is what got him killed. Regardless of whether you and I agree on whatever it is he said, the very fact that he spoke and that is what got him killed is my point. the early church was persecuted for preaching Christ in the synagogues.

[micah7:9]

I was never thrown out of a church, I left because of the emptiness in the words.

[Seth]

I'd be willing to bet if you told them that they might have hastened your departure.

[micah7:9]

Sorry friend. I offered in the beginning, the Bible does not teach going to heaven or hell. I stayed as long as the Lord kept me there. :dsunny:

[ed]

We don't get kicked out of our churches for being nice, forgiving, and loving people, even though we strive toward that. So why do we get thrown out? Because we say their doctrine is wrong (even if we don't put it in those words) and nobody takes to that very well, no matter how nicely you say it.

I believe persecution for the early church was mainly a matter of doctrine, not fruit.

LOL,

I expected to be kicked out of here when I started talking about my true state.  Lucky for me the mods had compassion.  My state has not yet changed.  I'm just working on not spouting off about it.

Have you heard the teaching on standing and state?
http://www.biblebelievers.com/scofield/scofield_rightly08.html

.

[micah7:9]

I was led away from Scofield a long time ago.  :dsunny: Glory.

[JulieTang84]

the life of Christ is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. He healed and did all kinds good things out of love which made him very popular. Big crowds followed him. But what he SPOKE is what got him killed. Regardless of whether you and I agree on whatever it is he said, the very fact that he spoke and that is what got him killed is my point. the early church was persecuted for preaching Christ in the synagogues.

Father please give me strength. Please, Seth you must understand that Jesus came and taught the Good News about the Kingdom of God, that was for the very people the Learned people despised. He blessed such as these out of pure LOVE. Not of himself but of Father. He even blessed and forgave the ones who killed him. Jesus spent his entire life sowing seeds of Love where ever he went. His healing's and parables were all about or concerning LOVE. What did he speak about that was not backed with LOVE? Even when he through out the money changes;his actions were motivated in LOVE and RESPECT for His Fathers House.

I am not sure what message you are trying to teach here, but you must, MUST realize that Satan the angel of darkness dresses as an angel of LIGHT (LOVE) so as to trick people. Why would He do this if Jesus was about anything OTHER THAN LOVE. The simple truth is that Jesus said EVERYTHING that he did and achieved was because He LOVED HIS FATHER and HIS FATHER LOVED HIM ****** TOTALLY ****** They were ONE in everything. I am absolutely certain that Jesus MUST have had an aura or something about him BECAUSE OF THIS LOVE that made him stand out in a crowd. PEOPLE LOVED HIM even before He spoke. What is most afraid of Light? Darkness. Satan's pinions were terrified of Him. The Jews were mortified of the following He had.

So if Jesus had spoke the same message as the Jews or the Pharisee's He would have still been killed? You simply cannot be serious. It was NOT that he SPOKE, but WHAT HE SPOKE ABOUT.


Love
Murder
"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca, ' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.
"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift. (Matthew 5:21-24)Forgiveness
For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. (Matthew 6:14:15)Servants not rulers
Jesus called them together and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be your slave-- just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." (Matthew 20:25-28)Greatest commandment
Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' (Matthew 22:37-39)

"My teaching is not my own. It comes from him who sent me. If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own."
—John 7:16

"The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him." —John 8:29 "For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost." —Luke 19:10 John 3:3, "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." [/t][/t]

Jesus's message was TRUTH in the SPIRIT of Love, concerning what? Fathers Love for us.


You cannot rewrite Fact Seth, the Truth will stand firm on it's own.


Oh, and before you say "I know He spoke about Love, but it was the Speaking that did it"


Consider this.....


James 2:14-26New King James Version (NKJV)
Faith Without Works Is Dead14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by myworks.
Jesus talked the talk and walked the walk. He talked of Love (his Father) and He walked in the Light of LOVE of (His Father)
The very same Father who loves us and would have us spread the good-news in an through Love just as Jesus. Which is why Jesus said: any such doing so will be hated because of Him.
There are many additional Scriptures if you are still not convinced.
Darkness HATES LIGHT. Light is TRUTH. TRUTH is LOVE and LOVE is FATHER
Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[micah7:9]

Quote from: Seth on Today at 04:16:15 AM
the life of Christ is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. He healed and did all kinds good things out of love which made him very popular. Big crowds followed him. But what he SPOKE is what got him killed. Regardless of whether you and I agree on whatever it is he said, the very fact that he spoke and that is what got him killed is my point. the early church was persecuted for preaching Christ in the synagogues."

I take offence, Joh 10:17  `Because of this doth the Father love me, because I lay down my life, that again I may take it;

[Seth]

Their reasons and Christ's reasons are two different matters. Their reasons for persecuting Christ are the words he spoke. He spoke them on purpose, knowing this.

[JulieTang84]

Their reasons and Christ's reasons are two different matters. Their reasons for persecuting Christ are the words he spoke. He spoke them on purpose, knowing this.

» And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease among the people. (Matthew 4:23)

» And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people. (Matthew 9:35)

» Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel." (Mark 1:14-15)

» [Jesus] said to them, "I must preach the kingdom of God to the other cities also, because for this purpose I have been sent." (Luke 4:43)

» Now it came to pass, afterward, that [Jesus] went through every city and village, preaching and bringing the glad tidings [gospel] of the kingdom of God. (Luke 8:1)

» The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it. And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail. (Luke 16:16-17)

» And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. (Matthew 24:14)

Jesus taught the Good News, the news that was filled with Love  and Light. The darkness hated it

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

That's my point. His TEACHING is what got him killed, not his healing, or feelings of love, etc. His TEACHING is what made them hate him.

John 10
29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30I and my Father are one.

31Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

[WhiteWings]

The Pharisees persecuted Christ what he said not what he did,

When He drove out demons they claimed He must have a satanic connection because on satan can drive out demons. So it was also about what He did.

[JulieTang84]

That's my point. His TEACHING is what got him killed, not his healing, or feelings of love, etc. His TEACHING is what made them hate him.

Seth. I detect much anger in your words and tone. How dare you say that Jesus only had "feelings of Love"

You obvisouly gave no thought to what you were writing. I did not Call you out, when you accused me of touchy feely love also. Jesus was persecuted because, the message he spoke of love, forgiveness and the coming age where the meek shall inherit the Earth. He taught the full message of love, throug h who and what he was.

Sure you can bully me, but I will not cower. His every word and deed was of and through LOVE, of His Love for Father and Fathers Love for all. He condemned no one and the darkness hated him for it. Despised him even

Jhn 5:8
Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk.

Jhn 5:9
And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath.

Jhn 5:10
The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured, It is the sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed.

Jhn 5:11
He answered them, He that made me whole, the same said unto me, Take up thy bed, and walk.

Jhn 5:12
Then asked they him, What man is that which said unto thee, Take up thy bed, and walk?

Jhn 5:13
And he that was healed wist not who it was: for Jesus had conveyed himself away, a multitude being in that place.

Jhn 5:14
Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

Jhn 5:15
The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole.

Jhn 5:16
And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.

Jhn 5:17
But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

Jhn 5:18
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Jhn 5:19
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

Jhn 5:20
For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

Of course it was what Jesus did, but also why he did it.

Father lived through Jesus, you may not like it but it is Truth.

Father is love, so was Jesus.

Love wins  :HeartThrob:
Julie

[Seth]

That's my point. His TEACHING is what got him killed, not his healing, or feelings of love, etc. His TEACHING is what made them hate him.

Seth. I detect much anger in your words and tone. How dare you say that Jesus only had "feelings of Love"

You obvisouly gave no thought to what you were writing. I did not Call you out, when you accused me of touchy feely love also. Jesus was persecuted because, the message he spoke of love, forgiveness and the coming age where the meek shall inherit the Earth. He taught the full message of love, throug h who and what he was.

Sure you can bully me, but I will not cower. His every word and deed was of and through LOVE, of His Love for Father and Fathers Love for all. He condemned no one and the darkness hated him for it. Despised him even

Jhn 5:8
Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk.

Jhn 5:9
And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath.

Jhn 5:10
The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured, It is the sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed.

Jhn 5:11
He answered them, He that made me whole, the same said unto me, Take up thy bed, and walk.

Jhn 5:12
Then asked they him, What man is that which said unto thee, Take up thy bed, and walk?

Jhn 5:13
And he that was healed wist not who it was: for Jesus had conveyed himself away, a multitude being in that place.

Jhn 5:14
Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

Jhn 5:15
The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole.

Jhn 5:16
And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.

Jhn 5:17
But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

Jhn 5:18
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Jhn 5:19
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

Jhn 5:20
For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

Of course it was what Jesus did, but also why he did it.

Father lived through Jesus, you may not like it but it is Truth.

Father is love, so was Jesus.

Love wins  :HeartThrob:
Julie

I never said what you are accusing me of Julie. I didn't say he didn't have feelings of love I said he was persecuted for the things you said. He said he was like God and so they sought to kill him. He contradicted thier Sabbath or so they thought so they sought to kill him.

Healing people and performing miracles made him popular. telling the truth made him unpopular.

[Seth]

The Pharisees persecuted Christ what he said not what he did,

When He drove out demons they claimed He must have a satanic connection because on satan can drive out demons. So it was also about what He did.

True, bit they were already against him at that point, just trying to find a way to discredit him. They already admitted to him that the things he did showed he was from God.

[sheila]

He said they hated him because He testified that their works were wicked.  He straight out exposed

their unrighteousness and hypocrisy.  the truth hurts at times. the world loves it's own..and

because He is no part of the world..it hates Him.  He tesify that that the Prince of this world's

works were wicked.

    Yes...He exposed sin...so that it could be confessed of,repented of..forgiven of and healed of.

  that is how 'love' covers sin.   Because ye say ...'I have no sin' your sins remain[you will die in your

sin]

[rosered]

He said they hated him because He testified that their works were wicked.  He straight out exposed

their unrighteousness and hypocrisy.  the truth hurts at times. the world loves it's own..and

because He is no part of the world..it hates Him.  He tesify that that the Prince of this world's

works were wicked.

    Yes...He exposed sin...so that it could be confessed of,repented of..forgiven of and healed of.

  that is how 'love' covers sin.   Because ye say ...'I have no sin' your sins remain[you will die in your

sin]

:thumbsup:      truth  amen !
make the tree good and its fruits/works good or make the tree corrupt the TREE /  every human

is KNOWN by its fruit /works


  we are what we eat , trees of knowledge of good and evil

all good is for the glory of God on  the earth   

   eat my body and drink my blood that you may have life in you    [ Jesus is the tree of Life ]   Wisdom of God     
And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him. 


Mar 8:23   And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought. 


Mar 8:24   And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking. 


Mar 8:25   After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.

[JulieTang84]

Copying whole post again for Seth who does not seem to have the courage to stand by his own words.

Read below where Seth clearly states His teaching got him killed, not his healing or feelings of love, etc.

Yes Seth you said it. Also please read in full John 5:8-20 (beliw) and learn why he was persecuted.  :HeartThrob

It was his healing that they took exception too and that he called Father, His Father.

Do not ever try to say it was not what Jesus did that caused some to hate him, when Scripture says differently.
Of course I am not saying that Jesus did not speak harshly to those who hated him. Say what you want, but Jesus was perfect and He spoke every word given him by Father who is perfect Love.

Pleasr, this is not an I am right and you are wrong, BUT a public forum where TRUTH must always come before anything else.

Love Always, Julie  :HeartThrob:

That's my point. His TEACHING is what got him killed, not his healing, or feelings of love, etc. His TEACHING is what made them hate him.

Seth. I detect much anger in your words and tone. How dare you say that Jesus only had "feelings of Love"

You obvisouly gave no thought to what you were writing. I did not Call you out, when you accused me of touchy feely love also. Jesus was persecuted because, the message he spoke of love, forgiveness and the coming age where the meek shall inherit the Earth. He taught the full message of love, throug h who and what he was.

Sure you can bully me, but I will not cower. His every word and deed was of and through LOVE, of His Love for Father and Fathers Love for all. He condemned no one and the darkness hated him for it. Despised him even

Jhn 5:8
Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk.

Jhn 5:9
And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath.

Jhn 5:10
The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured, It is the sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed.

Jhn 5:11
He answered them, He that made me whole, the same said unto me, Take up thy bed, and walk.

Jhn 5:12
Then asked they him, What man is that which said unto thee, Take up thy bed, and walk?

Jhn 5:13
And he that was healed wist not who it was: for Jesus had conveyed himself away, a multitude being in that place.

Jhn 5:14
Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

Jhn 5:15
The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole.

Jhn 5:16
And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.

Jhn 5:17
But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

Jhn 5:18
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Jhn 5:19
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

Jhn 5:20
For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

Of course it was what Jesus did, but also why he did it.

Father lived through Jesus, you may not like it but it is Truth.

Father is love, so was Jesus.

Love wins  :HeartThrob:
Julie

I never said what you are accusing me of Julie. I didn't say he didn't have feelings of love I said he was persecuted for the things you said. He said he was like God and so they sought to kill him. He contradicted thier Sabbath or so they thought so they sought to kill him.

Healing people and performing miracles made him popular. telling the truth made him unpopular.