'In Christ'...How?

[gregoryfl]

I have a question that I would like to present and hear what you have come to understand of this:

It is concerning the oft used phrase 'in Christ'. How did, or does, one end up 'in Christ'?, as far as what scripture says.

I do not even believe 'in Christ' to be a positional thing, so will refrain from sharing, so as not to get into argumentation. I just would like to understand, for those who believe being 'in Christ' is say, to be contrasted with not being in him, what do the scriptures say about how that takes, or has taken, place.

Ronen

[onlytruth]

 :2c: Christ means anointed one
We all are, or can be anointed for certain times as the spirit moves
blessings

[Seth]

I have always understood it to be unification of many people into one body by the Holy Spirit.

[ed]

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is the light, we have fellowship one with another............

"In Christ" is fellowship.

2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ(in fellowship), he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

"Christ in" is sonship.

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

A son is not always in fellowship (walking in the light, in the renewed mind).  The sonship is still there, but the fellowship is missing.  When the fellowship is missing that carnal man is in charge.  When the christian is conformed to the world rather then Christ, the new creation is not seen in the christian.

[gregoryfl]

Thanks for your responses guys. If I may clarify, I am not asking what it means to be 'in Christ', but, whatever it means, how do you understand that it happens, but from the scriptures. For example, I grew up believing that everyone is outside of Christ until they say 'the sinner's prayer'. Then God takes that person and places them in Christ, but until they pray, they are outside of him. This is an example from my own experience growing up, which I no longer believe in, because I was challenged one day by someone to show them one scripture which gives you a clear cut 'when this happens' you go from being out of Christ to in Christ. Of course, I could not find one, it was all based on being told what to believe.

There are many 'in Christ' passages, but as far as I can tell, every single one of them only describes a reality based on being in Christ, such as the ones ed shared, none of them actually say how this took place, or takes place. And as Seth shared, a unification into one body...again though, is there a scripture or scriptures which tell us how this takes place, because I suspect that being 'in Christ' is not what most believers think it is.

I hope that makes a bit more sense,

Ronen

[ed]

because I suspect that being 'in Christ' is not what most believers think it is.

In Christ is in fellowship with Christ.  How do you get there?  I get their through prayer, the renewed mind, daily spiritual practice, ect.

Can we think we are in Christ and not be?  I'd say yes.  Doctrine held in the mind is not always correct.  Often we follow our chosen doctrine rather then Christ.  How do we know the difference?  If we are in fellowship, we are in constant prayer and communicating with Christ who is omnipresent always in us.  We have the teacher within.
1 John 2:27
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Always listening for the teacher leads is to abiding "in him".  We are not always there, but if we are sincere we should have the witness of the fruit of the Spirit in our lives. 

My checkup from the neck up is Romans 8:6.
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Life and peace are things that we can feel and know internally.
1 Cor 2:16
For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

Believing that Christ is in you and is guiding you brings you to the place of fellowship and followship.  It is daily practice.

[Seth]

1 Corinthians 12:13
For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and mall were made to drink of one Spirit.

[gregoryfl]

Thank you Ed.  I understand you to be saying then, that abiding in him is the same as being in him, which takes place through our fellowship with him, spiritually minded...something of a moment by moment experience?

Thank you Shawn. I understand you to be speaking of being in him by means of being irrigated (אשתין) of the Spirit upon being immersed in Him. I also see this connected with Pauls words in Romans 6. This would be then something akin to the experience and awakening to belief in him? (I assume you are not referring to physical water immersion).

Would that be a fair assessment?

Ronen

[JulieTang84]

There are many 'in Christ' passages, but as far as I can tell, every single one of them only describes a reality based on being in Christ, such as the ones ed shared, none of them actually say how this took place, or takes place. And as Seth shared, a unification into one body...again though, is there a scripture or scriptures which tell us how this takes place, because I suspect that being 'in Christ' is not what most believers think it is.

I hope that makes a bit more sense,

Ronen

Wonderful question Ronen. I was going to leave this thread well enough alone until I read what you wrote above.

I had been searching, praying, attending more churches than I care to remember and reading everything I could lay my hands on. Oh I believed that I did my very best and I knew the Scriptures very well. I exhausted every avenue but I knew in my heart of hearts that Christ was not in me, or I in Him.

Call it what you like, but there was something missing.

For some reason, Father I am sure prompted me to look inside myself, that Jesus said, Fathers Kingdom is within, not without. I take no credit for anything I am about to say, but deeper I went within the more utter garbage I found, useless trash that was my life. I finally understood what it meant to become as little children. Over much time (many months) a new me was born.

This was the transformation Jesus and Paul spoke about. It wasn't knowledge or understanding. It isn't anything I can tell you other than David knew when he wrote Pam 23.

I feel like I could walk on water or shine in the dark and if it were not for the lack of Faith I know I would. Now I am not going to post a bunch of Scripture, because I believe you wanted an example and I swear to you mine is true.

My whole life is now a glorious adventure riding on a blanket of profound peace, joy and Love. I can see Father everywhere and the work of Jesus's hand in everything. I had spent years searching for something that was not lost. Father works on His schedule, not ours. The journey has now only just begun.

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

Hi Ronen, I think you mean Seth. Not sure if the last question was directed to me. But as far as being in the Bodyof Christ, I think that is what the 1 Cor 12 scripture is saying. Do you differentiate being in Christ with being in the Body of Christ?

[ed]

..something of a moment by moment experience?


Would that be a fair assessment?

Yes, that would be my take.  In the moment.

Had not really thought of that in a while, I mean, "in Christ".  Took me back pretty far to a doctrine that I happen to agree with.  You know doctrines, you keep some, and you throw some away. :declare:

[WhiteWings]

I have a question that I would like to present and hear what you have come to understand of this:

It is concerning the oft used phrase 'in Christ'. How did, or does, one end up 'in Christ'?,

I think it's the same as "Father and Son are one".
For me it means all involved have the same mindset on things that matter. They are not exact duplicates but their goal is the same. Just like a football team consisting of individuals is one in their aim to defeat the opponent.

[gregoryfl]

Thank you Julie. As I understand it, for you it was a transformational experience, one that took place after you believed? You mentioned knowing the scripture well and going to church so I assume you were a believer before that transformation. No worries about not quoting scripture. I can still deduce the how of it from your post. :)

Ronen

[gregoryfl]

Thank you Whitewings. Being one with the Father and the Son, one in purpose and goal.

[gregoryfl]

Hi Ronen, I think you mean Seth. Not sure if the last question was directed to me. But as far as being in the Bodyof Christ, I think that is what the 1 Cor 12 scripture is saying. Do you differentiate being in Christ with being in the Body of Christ?

Yes, Shawn is a made up concoction of a older man who needs to learn not to rely so much on faulty memory.  :laughing7:

Hmm...I will have to really think on your question. I differentiate between the two in the sense of:

1. in Christ expressing the means on his end.
2. in the body expressing the means on our end.

Ronen

[Seth]

Interesting discussion, and in terms of "one in purpose" here is some food for thought:

John 15
1"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunesva so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

[jabcat]

" I grew up believing that everyone is outside of Christ until they say 'the sinner's prayer'. Then God takes that person and places them in Christ, but until they pray, they are outside of him. This is an example from my own experience growing up, which I no longer believe in"


I believe definitely there is scripture for being out of Christ then in Christ.  IMO, those that don't see it just interpret it differently than what the scriptures plainly say, changing the meaning.  I believe "saying the sinners prayer" can be used as a bit of a misnomer.  Saul didn't "say the sinners prayer" as may be written in the back of a hymnal, but he was given the faith to believe on Jesus and responded by receiving Him.  He said [by inference in talking to others] that by grace he HAD BEEN saved [spiritual new birth]..I believe that could be called "positional"...also "positional", is "seated with Him in heavenly places". 

Everyone posting here has read the scriptures so I won't go get the specific references -     

Paul said believe, confess, you will be saved.   Then John says when one believes on Jesus (to everyone who receives Him) to them he gave the right to become children of God.  There it is...given the faith to believe on Jesus [His sacrificial death and Life, His being the Savior] makes one a child of God...John says there's one or the other - a [spiritual] child of the devil, or a child of God..adopted as a son, grafted into the tree - and that there are ways to tell the difference (I John 3:10).   IMO, anything else is just muddying the waters and confusing people.

Titus 3:4-11,15   But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone.

But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a second time. After that, have nothing to do with them. You may be sure that such people are warped and sinful; they are self-condemned...greet those who love us in the faith.

[Seth]

When I was a younger I was brought up on the belief that "once saved always saved" meaning once you believe, you are IN the club, and no matter what happens you will "get to Heaven."

The whole thing was about getting into Heaven. What I believe now is that there is a distinguishing factor between "believers" and what Christ called "the very elect." Believers can be deceived, but the VERY elect cannot. They could only be deceived if it were possible, but God is clear in Romans 8, that it is a matter of predestination.

Believers can come to be in Christ, but if they do not produce fruit, they will be cut off. All branches in him producing no fruit will be cut off, and wither as branches fit for burning. I used to believe that meant....HELL!

No longer. I understand it now in the sense that Paul recommended a believer who was having an affair with his father's wife  be cast out of the church for destruction of the flesh, so that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord. I now understand the "burning" as the destructive power of sin as with the Prodigal Son, a resisting of the proud by turning them over to be eaten up by their own unrighteousness.

This is why I believe we must all be watchful. We must seek not simply to be in Christ, but to remain in him.

[JulieTang84]

Thank you Julie. As I understand it, for you it was a transformational experience, one that took place after you believed? You mentioned knowing the scripture well and going to church so I assume you were a believer before that transformation. No worries about not quoting scripture. I can still deduce the how of it from your post. :)

Ronen

This is the crazy thing about it all Ronen. I believed and had great faith in the God that I knew was out there but had positively no way of proving it. I didn't even have a mentor to say: "Julie, what you believe is true....have faith and trust that Father will reveal all in time." So few words would have made  such a difference. There is always a lot of talk about TESTING SPIRITS, I almost have to laugh. I wonder if there has ever been a person who tested Father nearly as much as I, while He was testing me.  :doh:

The transformation was pretty rocky, but miraculous at the same time. It was a pretty tragic time in my life, and I could lose focus pretty easily. I heard Father (might have been Jesus or an angel, but I understood it to be Father) say three simple words: "Don't Forget Love."  I was in Church of all places and those three words shook me to my core. I meditated, prayed and wrote what those words meant, but finally it dawned on me, that Father was simply saying: "Don't Forget Me!" He was of course saying: "Don't Forget Me, EVER!!!!!" and I knew it. Now I have my most Trusted Confidant and Mentor with me always and I am not alone (a miracle in and of itself)

So what came first? Well certainly not the transformation. Father certainly had gifted me with Faith enough to reject what I was being taught. It always tore me up why other kids "got" it and I didn't. I do believe that in my case, Father had gifted the faith before I knew what to believe. I "wanted" to believe what everyone else believed about Hell and eternal torture but just couldn't, not because it was too horrible (it is) it was just a square peg in a round hole.

Babbling again, so I had better stop.

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[ed]

http://greater-emmanuel.org/jg/2013/inchrist.php

Found this today and thought of your thread.

.

[gregoryfl]

http://greater-emmanuel.org/jg/2013/inchrist.php

Found this today and thought of your thread.

.

Yes Ed, this relates to my question very much. Thanks. I also found this youtube video which discusses the also/and aspect of this teaching, instead of the usual either/or view most hold to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxT1xeS6dvM&list=PLEE4D89D5173A151C&index=22

[gregoryfl]

One of the things John shares in his video is that the idea which makes separation the starting point, and 'In Christ' something only for believers, stems from the West, in particular, Augustine. The text from which he built his understanding was:

32 And all the nations will be gathered before him. And he will separate them one from another as a shepherd who separates the sheep from the goats. (Mat 25:32 MGI)

Separation is his starting point.

The idea which makes the inclusion of everyone the starting point, and 'In Christ' something true for all, but only experienced by believers, stems from the East, in particular, Athanasius. The text from which he built his understanding was:

14 For the love of Christ compels us to determine this, that one died on behalf of everyone, so then everyone is dead in him. (2Co 5:14 MGI)

What Christ accomplished for all in him is his starting point.

Each of course have their verses to prove their point, but, having been on both sides for years, I know from experience that my view from my earlier years was much more limited and narrow sighted than it is now.

It is one thing for all to be 'in the club' so to speak, but quite another for each individual to actually go to the club and partake in what it has to offer.

Ronen

[rosered]

Hi Ronen ,
Loved the answers  and wanted to add some of my thoughts because I do believe'' in Christ ''   in these ways I will attempt to explain
'' In Christ ''to me means  being ''Gathered into His Body /true church ''   Paul touches on this many times in many places   the assembling of His Body

and no longer scattered abroad .........tossed about by every wind of doctrine , being taught of Him and  in a safe place His protection as a husband & wife are called   One flesh ....
   2 thess 2  Aramaic Bible in Plain English
But we beg of you, my brethren, concerning the arrival of our Lord Yeshua The Messiah and concerning our assembling unto him
I am a'' now '' over    a waiting for   kind of  thinker 
  we are dead to God till Christ gives us His Life /breath
  all live to Him ...37"But that the dead are raised, even Moses showed, in the passage about the burning bush, where he calls the Lord THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB. 38"Now He is not the God of the dead but of the living; for all live to Him."

  our only hope of glory is in Christ whom is ALIVE 
I dont think I answered your  train of thought very well
  but felt  to speak up just the same

[gregoryfl]

Thank you Rose,

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that people are being gathered into his body, the church, and that they are in Christ at that point. Those who do not believe I think you would be saying are not in Christ yet, and that they are dead to God until he gives them life.

[rosered]

Thank you Rose,

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that people are being gathered into his body, the church, and that they are in Christ at that point. Those who do not believe I think you would be saying are not in Christ yet, and that they are dead to God until he gives them life.

Very well said Ronen  , Better than I could  :thumbsup:
  They are alive because of Jesus Christ is what I also meant to say ,  Because the Father and & Son are One ,
but that was another  thread ...
Gods  Blessings