Argument for free will inferred from two verses in the NT (calling Jesus 'Lord')

[Seth]

Romans 6
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

19I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. 20When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life (the life of the age - to know Jesus Christ). 23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

To be free indeed, is to be slave to God. See, I don't believe that God controls the actions of those who commit sins. He simply does not interfere with everyone, because he has a plan and and order by which all who are in Adam will be given life in Christ. When he does not interfere, man is slave to his primal impulses. He does not tempt any man to sin. The flesh does that.

When it comes to the mundane things like what we eat and whether we make our beds, I would not be too quick to rule out God's influences on those things either. As the old example goes, a butterfly flaps its wings, and causes a tidal wave on the other side of the world. I wouldn't be too dismissive of the idea that God might be using even the the most seemingly inconsequential actions.

I'll give you an example from my own life. I have a 5 year old daughter. 10-15 years before she was born, I took an art class, and someone I met encouraged me to go to a certain school. I took his advice and through a long series of events eventually met my wife and we had our child. If I had chosen to take a different class, or even the same class at a different time, my kid would probably not be here today, but I believe God is in control of who he births into the world. I believe his hand was at work even in my decision which I would have thought to be a minor thing.

I'm just saying, if you think back on your life, think upon the small things that steered your course to what caused the larger things to happen for which you praise God. Maybe his invisible hand is not so absent from the smaller things.

[Seth]

Jn. 1:12 He gave the right and the power to become children of God to those who received Him. He gave this to those who put their trust in His name.

I John 4:1 Beloved, do not trust every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they belong to God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.  2 This is how you can know the Spirit of God: every spirit that acknowledges Jesus Christ come in the flesh belongs to God,  3 and every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus does not belong to God.

:iagree:

Maybe it's a bit off topic but I think it's clear that regardless of how white someone's own righteousness is externally, the truth is:

Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Abraham believed God and so was called a friend of God (James 2:23)

[anna274]

Thanks Seth for sharing a very heart-warming story... 

I did smile when I read "Maybe his invisible hand is not so absent from the smaller things."  A few days ago, I met one of the older tenants here at what we call The Free Table...  free food, knick knacks, sometimes even an old TV... that day, I found an item (very small) that I really "needed"... she just said "Oh yes, isn't God so loving, He even cares about the small things..." she went on to discuss a couple of really BIG situations, saying "You know, there are no things like coincidences...God is everywhere, every hour hovering over us... longing to care for our every need and want, and yes, sometimes scolding us... but only because He loves us so much He doesn't want us to do things that in the long run will hurt us....   "  I smiled as she talked about our loving God.  I had been so lonely for some discussion about God's great love and He arranged for me  to be at The Free Table at the exact same time as this dear older woman.  (I'm 79, she's closer to 99! so I can call her older.)

re:  free will   Well, I believe that man is free to will anything man is able to will...
the important word is not "free", but "man"...    Man like God thinks...but God's thoughts are much higher than man's thoughts...   I believe we need to place the word like in the correct place...  man like God thinks...   NOT man thinks like God...

[Seth]

re:  free will   Well, I believe that man is free to will anything man is able to will...
the important word is not "free", but "man"...    Man like God thinks...but God's thoughts are much higher than man's thoughts...   I believe we need to place the word like in the correct place...  man like God thinks...   NOT man thinks like God...

Yes, I agree. Man, like God, thinks. Also, man is able to make choices. But is man able to choose anything outside the confines of what he IS and what he KNOWS? If he is flesh and knows only the flesh, he will always choose the flesh, until God drags him to the cross to get rid of the flesh.

This always gets back to defining what "free will" is supposed to mean, because the Bible does not use that term nor define it, which leaves it up to us. I believe that God created the confines which surround creation, thereby creating means by which he can influence his creation as a potter influences clay.

[micah7:9]

 :iagree:

Yet,......"...   defining what "free will" is supposed to mean, because the Bible does not use that term nor define it, ...."    the phrase got its way into religious teaching and has become somewhat of a mantra, right along with the celebration/recognition of christmas, easter, trinity... could even throw in rapture. I believe and have stated before, to accept in man having a free will, makes/lets, man think he has some part of the responsibility for how everything began.

[Seth]

Here are my thoughts on the freedom of Christ:

John 8
31Then said Jesus to those Jews <b>which believed on him</b>, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. 33They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, <b>and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?</b>

Now that I find interesting. They didn't know they were in bondage. They thought it was absurd for anyone to say that they were not free, because they felt free. They thought slavery was a matter of externalization, rather than in the mind, and the mind is what controls the choices. So we have people making choices, falsely believing that they are free from bondage.

34Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 35And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. <b>36If the Son therefore shall make you free</b>, ye shall be free indeed. 37I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. 38I speak that which I have seen with my Father: <b>and ye do that which ye have seen with your father</b>.

How shocking was it to them to know that they had a father named Satan who they were in bondage to all the while believing they were free men?
To me, if I look at the context there, I don't see a will which has been freed to be autonomous, but one which has been freed from sin. I think from the context above, Jesus is saying that he has to MAKE us free from sin, and in order to do that, he creates this process according to his providence.

Romans 8
29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

This process of being MADE to be "free indeed" I do not see as freedom unto autonomy, but freedom from sin according to the foreknowledge, predestination, and active process of conforming them to the image of his Son so that it is all of God and no man may boast.

In other words, "If ye continue in my word, ye are disciples indeed" is God's choice, and if they are free indeed is a matter of whether they have been predestination to be so, and the freedom itself is not in self-rule, but in God ruling over them to make them into the image of his Son.

For those who were made free and then returned to slavery to Satan, John recognizes the Romans 8 process by saying this:

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

[micah7:9]

Good thoughts :dsunny:  Somewhat off the subject of man's free will, but good thoughts.  :thumbsup:
When the Lord has begun His work in the one the Father has drawn, we become free, free in deed, and no longer work under the natural, even though we fall at times, err, miss the mark, we know we have a mediator. We now begin our walk in HIS Will, a will we did have knowledge of, now we grow, mature, become ONE with Him. :dsunny:

[anna274]

Good thoughts :dsunny:

Indeed, very good and very, very helpful.  I have a list of scripture verses (which include these verses)  in my notebook under the heading TO BE ARRANGED LATER... for my ongoing study of "from legal bondage to FREEDOM IN CHRIST.

I really like your arrangement of these verses ---> a beautiful flow of spiritual insights into the FREEDOM OF CHRIST.

[Seth]

Good thoughts :dsunny:  Somewhat off the subject of man's free will, but good thoughts. 

Well, what I am getting at is that if the definition of "free will" is "self rule" I do not see that present within the scripture which includes the phrase "free indeed." I believe the definition of freedom there is ironically tied to the notion of being a clay pot in the hand of the Potter. The above scripture, to me, actually reinforces the idea that freedom from sin depends not on self-rule, but on Christ-rule.

[micah7:9]

Joh 8:36  If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. (My reference.)

I have no use for phrases such as "free will or self will" as subjects of my studying of the Word, they do not exist in my Bibles.  My reasoning is, not man after... meeting Christ, but man in the very beginning having a "free will-self will", having assisted the Lord God in His Purpose and Plan for His creation. Man had no will, but the Will Lord God.  :dsunny:

[Seth]

My reasoning is both before and after meeting Christ. I don't have much of a problem with the idea that man has a will and that man can make choices. I just don't think that man's will is "free." I don't much have a problem with using terms that are not in the Bible either. For example, I believe in universal salvation. That very term is not present in the Bible, so it's up to me to communicate what I mean by that, and what I mean by it is certainly supported by the Bible.

[micah7:9]

I am not UR and don't use it... I like 1Ti 2:4  Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Man has a will, and that will is to miss the mark, sin, man does have the mental ability to make choices and does everyday.

[Seth]

I would not say I AM UR. I am Seth. But I definitely believe in UR. I think the Bible is clear about it.

[micah7:9]

I believe it is The Lord's will that all men will be saved. I do not like labels, to me that's how we got all "labels" we have now and call them denominations.

[Seth]

I dunno, Peter accepted the label "Christian" even though it wasn't present within his Bible.  :dunno2: :HeartThrob:

[micah7:9]

I read somewhere why believers were called christians, it was because they were being made fun of, like, "Look at those Christlike people," Don't know. Could be wrong. But then I ask, why Act_11:26  And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
is the only recorded time such a thing happened. Why no reference from Paul, James, even Peter for wasn't Acts written by Luke?

[Seth]

Check 1 Peter 4:16

[micah7:9]

I stand corrected, thank you. One still must wonder why if having worth was not used more. :Peace2:

Been good posting I am going to watch "Quigley Down Under" have a good night. :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

I'm not sure that it has worth particularly but I don't think its much of a big deal. I don't think terms that are not in the Bible are necessarily bad to use I just think it's important that they follow the right doctrine. That's important. the English language has millions of words or at least hundreds of thousands. I think its okay to utilize those words even if they are not technically in the Greek language or Hebrew

[micah7:9]

Perhaps that's true and I can somewhat agree, yet if one sticks to the A B C blocks it's a whole lot easier to teach. Man's words have disguised much of what is written. For example ALL, man uses universal, is ALL so hard to understand over universal? Or I'm a Believer in Jesus Christ verses I'm a christian? Yes I am gonna watch Quigley!

[JulieTang84]

There are untold accounts of kind, compassionate and very wise people throughout history (Buddhism and Hinduism and even some native Indian tribes here in the USA.) These people were and I would say still are very much examples of Father causing himself to be known. Of course some will say that they do not know Jesus and thus could not know Father. But Jesus was spirit before becoming man and is spirit once more. Who are we to say (limit) has been given      the spirit of Love [?]    and who hasn't.

   
Jn. 1:12 He gave the right and the power to become children of God to those who received Him. He gave this to those who put their trust in His name.

I John 4:1 Beloved, do not trust every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they belong to God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 This is how you can know the Spirit of God: every spirit that acknowledges Jesus Christ come in the flesh belongs to God,  3 and every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus does not belong to God.

Touche, James  :HeartThrob: but I feel you are missing something that hopefully I share with you via Scripture. Just turn on the TV any Sunday morning and flip through the many channels and see 1,000s upon 1,000s gleefully professing their love for Jesus and gloating with self righteous indignation about how "good" they are and how bad everyone one else is. I am very happy for you if you have not had someone whom you love, condemn you to something too horrific for words but say they love you. Jesus had much to say about such as these....

Mat 7:22
Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?'

Mat 7:23
Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Mat 15:8
" 'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.

   
Jhn 16:2
They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

Do YOU really think John was talking about such as these, who spend their whole lives praising Jesus and acting as God, judging everyone with more hatred than Satan himself could muster.

James please consider the following:

Mat 20:1
"For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard.

Mat 20:2
He agreed to pay them a denariusfn for the day and sent them into his vineyard.

Mat 20:3
"About nine in the morning he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing.

Mat 20:4
He told them, 'You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.'

Mat 20:5
So they went. "He went out again about noon and about three in the afternoon and did the same thing.

Mat 20:6
About five in the afternoon he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, 'Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?'

Mat 20:7
" 'Because no one has hired us,' they answered. "He said to them, 'You also go and work in my vineyard.'

Mat 20:8
"When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, 'Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.'

Mat 20:9
"The workers who were hired about five in the afternoon came and each received a denarius.

Mat 20:10
So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius.

Mat 20:11
When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner.

Mat 20:12
'These who were hired last worked only one hour,' they said, 'and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.'

Mat 20:13
"But he answered one of them, 'I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn't you agree to work for a denarius?

Mat 20:14
Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you.

Mat 20:15
Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?'

Mat 20:16
"So the last will be first, and the first will be last."


PLEASE do not be in a huge rush to put anyone ahead of anyone else. Clearly Jesus was talking about the so called righteous (pious) people of his time, just as I am now. The workers in the story were mortified because they worked so hard for so long and the ones who did so little for such a short time received the same reward.

Jesus does not need people to say his name or to give him testimony. He knows each person intimately, with the same Love as FATHER.  :HeartThrob:

Jhn 2:25
He did not need any testimony about mankind, for he knew what was in each person.

Jesus said himself, Father mast be worshipped in SPIRIT, not by what comes out of the mouth. Father knows hearts and this is from which all worship must come; from a Spirit Filled Heart. 

Luke 15:16
He said to them, "You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of others, but God knows your hearts. What people value highly is detestable in God's sight.

This has always amazed me. Jesus's love was so complete that he gave himself up for everyone. But I do not KNOW a single person who would consider giving up what they have been given (not saying there isn't anyone) so that one who cannot see, might. Father knows my heart well enough to know I would do it in an instant. I judge no one James, and I believe without question that Father has revealed himself through SPIRIT to peoples of all types and creeds. The last truly will be first, and those with TRUE love in their hearts would not want it any other way.
   
Jhn 12:26
If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

So how does one truly serve Christ? Father has given me the understanding of DOING all things that Jesus did. Jesus gave perfect examples of how to LIVE, LOVE and GLORIFY Father in everything. He condemned no one. RATHER he had UNCONDITIONAL Love to all, because he DIED for all.

SO does Jesus care more about the words the come out peoples mouths: "Jesus Saves.....but not you!!!"

or is he interested most in the condition of ones heart? I think the latter.

Gal 5:22
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

Gal 5:23
gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

With much Love and Respect,
Julie  :HeartThrob:

[jabcat]

(these sidelines, including Seth's post earlier, appear off topic, but actually is related to the part of the OP that is "calling Jesus 'Lord' ")

Hey Julie.  :)   Thanks.   For my view, though related, I believe there are separate/distinct issues.  As far as all that, I've never advocated hate, and neither do the scriptures, or neither does anyone walking by the Spirit.  I agree we should be kind to each other and it's very sad when there is abuse.  Beyond that, I'll try to keep my reply very focused and hopefully not distract.

The central point for me is, the Gospel is not "all about love" or "all about a spirit of love".  It's Christ and Him crucified, as Paul said.  All else spiritually grows from that foundation, including love among all other fruits of the Spirit, and from where the healing and true condition of ones' heart flows.  That's why we're to proclaim Jesus, Savior, rather than ideologies.  Then the Holy Spirit does the works of the Father in each believers' heart.  I believe except for any specific instances in which God may choose to express Himself (i.e., speaking through a donkey, the burning bush, using anyone or anything for His glory) anything less than (or apart from) the Person of the Christ is darkness parading as Light. 

[Seth]

James, amen. It's about Christ and him Crucified. It's about walking with God by faith and not falling back from it.

[jabcat]

James, amen. It's about Christ and him Crucified. It's about walking with God by faith and not falling back from it.

..and He is risen!   :thumbsup:

[micah7:9]

"..and He is risen!   :thumbsup:" :dsunny: