The Creation Account

[Seth]

Hello all. I wanted to invite discussion about this question I have regarding the "creation account." I have approached this issue from a Young Earth and an Old Earth perspective, and also am questioning whether neither suffice. Is God concealing mystery in the account while not attempting to describe the literal account at all?

To understand why I am questioning the latter, please take a look at a few strange points of the creation account that I think many people gloss over, and I did the same in my readings as well.

1) God said let there be light. God IS light, so he was obviously not talking about himself coming into being.

2) He divided light from dark and the light he called day (yom) and the dark he called night, and the evening and the morning (together) were the first day (yom). Very interesting that you have YOM (day) represented by the light as distinguished from the dark, but then you also have the COMBINATION of day and night as the first day. In other words: day (yom) + night = yom (day). So, is a day 12 hours? Or 24 hours, or millions of years?

So already we have in interesting use of the word YOM as having distinct meanings indicating differing time frames.

But here is where it gets really interesting:

3) On the forth "DAY" God appears to have made the sun, moon and stars for the express purpose of measuring "days (yom), months and years" AND "to separate the day (yom) from the night" Huh? I thought day and night were already separated on the first day?

Hello?

So, from day four onward, God obviously means for man to use the sun as a measurement for days. How was this measurement done before the fourth day if there was not yet a "greater light to govern the day" and "a lesser light to govern the night" and therefore no rotation of the earth according to the sun to determine the hours?

Meaning: How were days being measured before the fourth day? What was this "LIGHT" that God said to be, if God is already light, and was using that light to divide day from night calling that a day before there was a sun? Why was the "greater light"  and "lesser light" necessary if there was already "morning" and "night" and "days" and "light" from before?

The word "DAY" seems to have all these flexible meanings within this one account, including not measuring the first three days by the sun or moon in accordance with 24 hour days, 30 day months, and 12 month years.

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The problem for the Young Earth View:

Resolving the concept of measuring "days" as a 24 hour period before the appearance of the sun in the fourth "day" being that the sun and moon were created with the purpose to make those measurements. Why did he create lights in the heavens on the fourth day "to separate the day from the night" when this separation was said to be already done in the first "day?" Also, resolving what is the "light" that God said to "be," seeing as though God already is Light, so what is the light he spoke into existence as distinct from himself, if the sun itself were not created until the fourth day?

The problem for the Old Earth View:

Resolving the fact that the sun was made in the fourth day and after the third day, but that vegetation was created in the third day. How did vegetation exist without the sun for supposed millions of years between "days" before the sun appears? Obviously, vegetation needs photosynthesis (from what we now understand). And, obviously there was light from the first day to the fourth day....but not from the sun as we know from the fourth day. What was the physical light coming from, if not the sun?

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To me it seems a stretch to think that the writer of the creation story as inspired by God was unaware of all these strange issues. It seems intentional to me.

To me, there is way more mystery in this short account than either Old Earth or Young Earth proponents allow or resolve. It's almost like the author of the creation account is not even intending to represent creation how it actually happened, but using physical creation as a parable of some kind and leaving the details of actual creation as a mystery to be solved by science.

God says in other passages that he created all things, but I am wondering if the Genesis account is really the place to find the literal way he created them. I can say this with the knowledge that many things in the Bible have been misunderstood and that by intentional misdirect from God (Christ's parables for example, intended to conceal the kingdom mysteries.)

God outright says that he creates mysteries, so I am just wondering out loud about this one. Am I not seeing it correctly? What are your ideas that might resolve the issues for a literal account? What do you think about the possibility that it's not a literal account?

Maybe there is something I am not seeing that resolves the literal account within itself? Open to all thoughts/ideas.

[JulieTang84]

I am sure this thread might indeed open a can of worms; however, it is indeed a wonderful topic.

I have only my phone so cannot go into too much detail. But I can quote two Scriptures that might help.

Rom 1:20 Every thing that can be known about Father can be seen and fully understood through creation so that man is without excuse.

Note: there is no mention of the creation story.

Pro 3:5 Trust in Father with all your heart, mind and soul and lean not on your own understanding.

Both were quoted from memory, pleaser forgive my memory if a word or two are wrong.


Basically, science has proved that the literal 6 day creation story as a story. Your mentioning day and nights before the creation of the Sun  and the moon supports this. Science and physics show the works of an incredible designer, biology just blows 'chance' out of the water.

My take on the creation stories are that the message is far deeper than a mere literal  reading. Romans 1:20 as mentioned gives credence to this notion.

Whatever we choose to believe is irrelevant as we are told to TRUST FATHER and not our understanding.

But this is such a wonderful topic, I would love to hear the thoughts of others.

Love  Julie  :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

And there are so many oddities and variable uses of the concept of day and light, and darkness and night, that it makes little sense to assume that the writer was completely unaware of this. For example, the scripture says "the evening and the morning, the first day." It doesn't say "the evening all the way to the next evening."

Technically evening and morning are 12 hours, not 24 hours, unless evening and morning are idioms for 12 hours night and 12 hours day. In any case, there is definitely more to it than either Young Earth or Old Earth theologies resolve.

Hebrew, from what I know, contains only 3,100 words, whereas the average English person knows something around 7,000 to 8,000 words and the English language has around 250,000+ words. That might account for the difficulty in describing the creation and all the nuances.

It seems to me that the creation account isn't even trying to be easily understood.

[gregoryfl]

I am currently working on a translation of the Hebrew and can say that yes, there is indeed more going on that is not readily visible in most English translations.

Rather than just say what I see (which is actually one of the ancient teachings from some of the sages of old), I will share a unique feature of the creation days and we will begin to unpack the possible hidden meaning behind the story:


Normally, if a simple sequence of numbering is being used, you would use ordinal numbers in this way:

First, second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh.


Furthermore, if you were wanting to make sure each sequenced number was linked in that direct ordering, you would add 'the' with each event, so as to say:

The first, the second, the third, the fourth, the fifth, the sixth, the seventh.


If you were wanting to show, not a sequence, but simply a reference to an event, you would use cardinal numbers, like this:

Day one, Day two, Day three, Day four, Day five, Day six, Day seven.


In the creation account, you have two anomalies, unique in scripture to this particular sequencing of events. Here is the ordering, as it would literally be read in English:

Day one, a second day, a third day, a fourth day, a fifth day, the sixth day, the seventh day.


What two differences do you see? And what do you think that tells us about what the Creator may be communicating?

Ronen

[JulieTang84]

It seems to me that the creation account isn't even trying to be easily understood.

And this is wby we must not lose sight of the forest for the sake of  a tree or two.  :HeartThrob:

Love Julie

[Seth]

Ronen,
Here is what I see in the KJV interlinear:


Day One
And the evening and the morning were the first day: Ereb (dusk) boqer (dawn) hayah (were - the verb "to be") echad (one or first) yom (day)

Day Two
And the evening and the morning were the second day: Ereb (dusk) boqer (dawn) hayah (were) sheniy (double or second) yom (day)

Day Three
And the evening and the morning were the third day: Ereb (dusk) boqer (dawn) hayah (were) sheliyshiy (third) yom (day)

Day Four
And the evening and the morning were the third day: Ereb (dusk) boqer (dawn) hayah (were) rebiy iy (fourth) yom (day)

Day Five
And the evening and the morning were the third day: Ereb (dusk) boqer (dawn) hayah (were) chamiyshiy (fifth) yom (day)

Day Six
And the evening and the morning were the third day: Ereb (dusk) boqer (dawn) hayah (were) shishshiy (sixth) yom (day)

Are there some Hebrew characters that alter how these should be read?

[gregoryfl]

Shalom Seth,

I do not know if you are able to read Hebrew, but when you look at where the text refers to the sixth and seventh days, there is the letter ה prefix, which is the equivalent to the English 'the'.

If you look at days 2-5, they do not have the definite article, meaning in English they would be referred to as 'a' day, not 'the'.

So, you would see 'ha'shishshiy ' (the sixth) and 'ha'shbiyiy' (the seventh).

Also, unlike days 2-7, day 1 is referred to with אחד 'echad' rather than the sequential number 'רשון' meaning 'first', such as in Exodus 12: 15:

...On the first day you shall eradicate leaven...

This unique rendering is meant to cause us to stop and consider something beyond the surface reading...a pattern he is communicating to us.
Ronen

[JulieTang84]

Here is another for consideration.

Gen 1:26 gives an account of humans being made, yet Gen 2:7 (following the 7th day of rest) gives amother different account where Father specifically breathes spirit into the man just created.

This does not indicate the ,8th day, just a time following. We know Cain went to another land filled with an unaccounted for people, which might have stemmed from the first creation story. Father created the garden of Eden and placed Adam and Eve in it at some later time. Possibly 1,000's of years later.

Just good for thought.  :Peace2:

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[Lazarus Short]

Remember, Seth, that the Bible is written with a rather broad brush, so to speak, and a lot of details are left out, except for those God deemed important enough to mention. 

Further, the ancient Hebrew language, as wonderful as it was, lacked a lot of terms we moderns take for granted.  Aramaic, a close relative of Hebrew is a dying language, for it has remained the language of goat and sheep herders, and has not kept up with the times.  I have often stated that Jesus lacked the human language to express what the Kingdom of Heaven was like, so instead of a frontal description, He had to beat around the burning bush:  "The Kingdom of Heaven is like..."

Given that, God did not express the Creation by describing a Big Bang (if it even happened that way), the expansion of the universe, galaxies, etc, etc, etc.  He fell back on that broad brush and poetic, allegorical language.  He was not telling a "so-tale," but telling the story in terms His readers and hearers could understand - at least, that's how I see it.

Given that, there are still some amazing things just under the surface of the Creation account.  Take this for instance, and I write this from memory, so bear with me:  In the Beginning [TIME], God [SPIRIT] created [ENERGY] the Heavens [SPACE] and the Earth [MATTER].  How about that, there are the four fundamental building blocks of physics, time, space, energy, and matter, plus Spirit "the Fifth Element," which more and more scientists are coming to see as necessary in the grand scheme of things.

[anna274]

Many thanks Seth and Lazarus:  Seth, for introducing this topic-- I needed a reminder to get serious again (!!) about completing a project the Lord gave me several years ago:  OUT OF LOVE, FOR HIS GLORY, GOD CREATED MAN IN HIS OWN IMAGE AND LIKENESS. Of particular interest was your statement "...physical creation as a parable of some kind..."  I continue looking at all of Scriptures in light of 1 Cor 15...  physical first then spiritual ...  (physical realities reveal spiritual truths)

Many thanks Lazarus particularly for TIME SPIRIT ENERGY SPACE MATTER --fundamental building blocks...  what are your thoughts on creation out of nothing... somewhere I read that that has become a "plausible hypothesis" ???

I continue to look at John 17 for what I think is a basic outline of God's glorious plan to bring all to be with Him for all eternity.

I had planned on not posting for a few weeks on the few Christian forums that I visit often, but it seems that man plans, but God directs our steps. 

[Lazarus Short]

...what are your thoughts on creation out of nothing... somewhere I read that that has become a "plausible hypothesis" ???

The universe is mostly empty space, the galaxy is mostly empty space, the solar system is mostly empty space, and the atoms are mostly empty space.  God made space and matter, but the amount of matter, as we dig deeper into the "matter," is disappearingly small.  Therefore, creation out of nothing doesn't really take us so very far.  Spoken into existence, our present world/age is not entirely real (it is an image), but the New Earth and the New Heavens will be.

[Seth]

Shalom Seth,

I do not know if you are able to read Hebrew, but when you look at where the text refers to the sixth and seventh days, there is the letter ה prefix, which is the equivalent to the English 'the'.

If you look at days 2-5, they do not have the definite article, meaning in English they would be referred to as 'a' day, not 'the'.

So, you would see 'ha'shishshiy ' (the sixth) and 'ha'shbiyiy' (the seventh).

Also, unlike days 2-7, day 1 is referred to with אחד 'echad' rather than the sequential number 'רשון' meaning 'first', such as in Exodus 12: 15:

...On the first day you shall eradicate leaven...

This unique rendering is meant to cause us to stop and consider something beyond the surface reading...a pattern he is communicating to us.
Ronen

Interesting information!

So the text would read "Day one, a second day, a third day, a fourth day, a fifth day, the sixth day, the seventh day." as you said.

What do you draw from this concerning the literal account?

[Seth]

Given that, God did not express the Creation by describing a Big Bang (if it even happened that way), the expansion of the universe, galaxies, etc, etc, etc.  He fell back on that broad brush and poetic, allegorical language.  He was not telling a "so-tale," but telling the story in terms His readers and hearers could understand - at least, that's how I see it.

That's just it though. It seems understandable on the surface, according to a quick reading, but once you start looking at every phrase, there are multiple different uses of the word "DAY" plus seemingly strange events like God creating day and night, and morning and evening before the sun was made on the fourth day. So, obviously, this makes the Young Earth account problematic. How were dawn and dusk functioning without a sun in accordance with the rotation of the earth. What was the light emanating from before the fourth day? How was the light disappearing and reappearing (morning and night) before the fourth day? Why was there terminology like "evening and morning" before the "greater light to rule the day" appeared by which man can number the days?

It's all very strange. Seemingly simple, but not so much really....

It puts into question for me that this is a literal account, or at least a linear account.

[jabcat]

For awhile now, I keep thinking..if the earth is only 7,000 literal years old, what was Eternal God doing for all that "time" before that?   

Why do you/we think God would be so secretive about it?  I honestly don't know, except somehow it's for our benefit and His glory, but that leaves a whole lot of "blanks"... trust, right?  :)

[Lazarus Short]

That's just it though. It seems understandable on the surface, according to a quick reading, but once you start looking at every phrase, there are multiple different uses of the word "DAY" plus seemingly strange events like God creating day and night, and morning and evening before the sun was made on the fourth day. So, obviously, this makes the Young Earth account problematic. How were dawn and dusk functioning without a sun in accordance with the rotation of the earth. What was the light emanating from before the fourth day? How was the light disappearing and reappearing (morning and night) before the fourth day? Why was there terminology like "evening and morning" before the "greater light to rule the day" appeared by which man can number the days?

It's all very strange. Seemingly simple, but not so much really....

It puts into question for me that this is a literal account, or at least a linear account.

Don't think for a minute that Laz knows all the answers!  But then again, don't think for a minute that when God said, "Let there be light," that that light came from the sun, for the text does not say that.  I'm sure there were things happening at the time, not mentioned in the story, which would answer all your questions.  Now, most of my books and Bibles are packed right now, and the only Bible I have at hand is my FFV, and Fenton renders time periods as "periods ["headships" as mentioned in his notes]," "day," "night," "first age," "second age," etc.

I think the Creation story is like a lot of what we read in our Bibles - true as far as it goes, even if it does not tell the whole story.  God is not trying to give us an exhaustive history of His Cosmos, nor does He need to.

[ded2daworld]

One solution  concerning light.
Light is invisible. What we call light is actually a reflection of particles of matter,
the invisible light being reflected to our eyes because of these particles of matter.
Since there was no matter prior to it's creation, there was nothing to be seen.
"Let there be light" can easily be construed as God bringing matter into existence so that light could be seen
by it reflecting off of matter.
On the moon, there is no light visible behind a rock facing the sun.
This doesn't happen on earth because our atmosphere refracts the light.
It's why you can see clearly during the day even when sitting on a shady side of a building or house.

Revelation says that God will be our light. He may well have been the light source the few days before the sun was created.
BTW, there is no mention of when the earth's rotation started. It may have been at the same time the sun was created.

[ded2daworld]

What did God do before the earth was created, Jab? We can't concieve of not living in a linear time continuum because time is dependent on matter. Prior to the creation of matter, there was no time, at the very least, no way to measure time.
So, the period before creation can't be measured in any way. We therefore have no conception of what it is like for time not to exist. Matter is all around us and we are matter. No Time? No Matter. and it doesn't matter there was no time. :winkgrin:

[WhiteWings]

Night and day has some hidden meaning according to Jewish scholars.
Night = dark = chaos = sin/evil
Day = light = order = holiness

A Jewish day starts with night (~18:00 - ~6:00) and ends with day (~6:00 -  ~18:00)
That's seen as a huge pattern. A summary of the whole Bible.
God's plan is to change darkness into light.

[WhiteWings]

In other words: day (yom) + night = yom (day). So, is a day 12 hours? Or 24 hours, or millions of years?

So already we have in interesting use of the word YOM as having distinct meanings indicating differing time frames.

John 11:19 Jesus answered, "Are there not twelve hours of daylight? Anyone who walks in the daytime will not stumble, for they see by this world's light.

That seems to answer your question. 12 hours light + night.

"Seems" because there are other definitions of day.
Sunrise to noon is called day. Noon to sunset is eve(ning).
--> Lambs were slaughtered in the eve. Or more exactly, between the evenings.
Just when Lamb Jesus died 3pm
So there are several 'days' not unlike English (or Dutch) btw. A day lasts 24 hours and that day has a part called night and day. And that day has a part called morning and afternoon.

[WhiteWings]

Another thing to note is that the 7th day isn't 'formally closed' as the other days.
(And Adam never formally woke up)


God seems to define a day as a period of darkness followed by a period of daylight.
But not even that is so simple....
The Jewish agricultural year starts at Passover/spring and ends at Passover/spring. Light ---> Light
But new year is celebrated during fall. Sabbath/Jubilee years start at that day.
Dark--->Dark
So years overlap 50%. And so do days (and possible festivals als)

There are quite a few verses that show, or at least strongly indicate, the ancient Jews at sunrise-->Sunrise days but a sunset-->sunset Sabbath.

I can tell you, only start Googling if you have a loooot of time because it's it very much related to resurrection(day) so a lot of muddling the water is going on  :winkgrin:

[Seth]

I can tell you, only start Googling if you have a loooot of time because it's it very much related to resurrection(day) so a lot of muddling the water is going on  :winkgrin:

This is one of the reasons I believe it's not as simple as saying that Genesis 1 represents a linear creation account, or even a literal one. I'm not hard and fast on that, which is why I opened the topic to see if others could resolve it.

[Seth]

Don't think for a minute that Laz knows all the answers!  But then again, don't think for a minute that when God said, "Let there be light," that that light came from the sun, for the text does not say that. 

I agree. And it's something that I don't think many Christians consider who insist on a 6,000 year old earth. I read the creation account many times and never caught it. Recently,  I saw an infamous young earth proponent named Kent Hovind say that "God is light" in reference to this issue. That doesn't really solve the problem, because God said "Let there be light." He wasn't saying, let there be God. Obviously, there was a quality of this light that caused it to be divided from the darkness and to create evening and morning be created without the sun.

The idea that light is invisible is interesting, but by what manner did this invisible light create division from the darkness. Was the darkness invisible too? If the light was invisible, then wasn't the land still dark, and essentially without a morning and night by which to create a day?

Daniel 26 suggests that it could be an idiom

Daniel 8:26
The vision of the evenings and the mornings that have been given to you is true, but seal up the vision for it concerns the distant future

So maybe "evening and morning" concerns itself with closing out one process to start another, and not having to do necessarily with the literal creation of evening and morning.

[anna274]

Night and day has some hidden meaning according to Jewish scholars.
Night = dark = chaos = sin/evil
Day = light = order = holiness

A Jewish day starts with night (~18:00 - ~6:00) and ends with day (~6:00 -  ~18:00)
That's seen as a huge pattern. A summary of the whole Bible.
God's plan is to change darkness into light.

re:  God's plan is to change darkness into light.   So many scripture verses come to mind as I read WW's reply... today, I just wish to share three or four

Colossians 1 (AMP)
v 12   Giving thanks to the Father, Who has qualified and made us fit to share the portion which is the inheritance of the saints (God's holy people) in the Light.
v 13   [The Father] has delivered and drawn us to Himself out of the control and the dominion of darkness and has transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of His love.
v 14   In Whom we have our redemption through His blood, [which means] the forgiveness of our sins.

OT
Isaiah 60:2
For behold, darkness shall cover the earth, and dense darkness all peoples, but the Lord shall arise upon you [O Jerusalem], and His glory shall be seen on you.

Isaiah 9:2
The people who walked in darkness have seen a great Light; those who dwelt in the land of intense darkness and the shadow of death, upon them has the Light shined.

NT
Matt 4:16
The people who sat (dwelt enveloped) in darkness have seen a great Light, and for those who sat in the land and shadow of death Light has dawned.

===
re:  summary of whole Bible

It seems to me that God's plan includes:
  changing emptiness into fullness
  changing death into Life
  changing chaos into order
  changing lust into love

well, now I must search for scripture verses that support these four changes...

[rosered]

 :thumbsup:

Great post  Seth and Anna !!   
    Loved  it ,,,,,,

it was good up till then God had made    everything  and it was VERY GOOD !


Gen 1:31   And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. 


Gen 2:1 ¶ Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 


Gen 2:2   And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 
Gen 2:3   And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
   to me Jesus is the 7th day SANCITIFIED and the  rest  for all   those whom were  heavy laden  ,



Mat 11:27   All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. 
Mat 11:28   Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 


Mat 11:29   Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 
Mat 11:30   For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.   For me seeing this as     the  light   as in   both knowing the Father and Son and the Light unto the world   knowledge of HIM !!

   The darkness is the ignorance of him and the Light is the Knowledge of Him !!

2Cr 4:4   In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 

2Cr 4:5   For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. 


2Cr 4:6   For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 


2Cr 4:7 ¶ But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.   

[anna274]

For awhile now, I keep thinking..if the earth is only 7,000 literal years old, what was Eternal God doing for all that "time" before that?   

Why do you/we think God would be so secretive about it?  I honestly don't know, except somehow it's for our benefit and His glory, but that leaves a whole lot of "blanks"... trust, right?  :)

Re:  what was Eternal God doing... before???

What saith the Scriptures?

but first, my very brief commentary :)

It seems to me that in John 17, Jesus tells us what He and His Father were doing before....     sharing love and glory, discussing God's glorious plan to bring ALL to be with Him for ALL eternity.

Just three verses (I encourage all to read all of John Chapter 17)

John 17
v 5   Now, Father, bring me into the glory we shared BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN.
v 8   for I have passed on to them the message You gave me.  They accepted it and know that I came from You, and they BELIEVE YOU SENT ME.
v 24  Father, I want these whom you have given me to be with me where I am.  Then they can see all the glory You gave Me BECAUSE YOU LOVED ME EVEN BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN.